Blizzard have effectively gotten rid of flying

[Evangeliste]

That's true. Players don't own the game, they only pay for access to it. However, you have to stop and consider that flying was part of the game for most of its life-span. It's been around longer than it hasn't, and is part of what made WoW different from every other bog-standard MMORPG on the market. By taking it away Blizzard is fundamentally changing what made WoW good in the first place.

Obviously some people will disagree, but that's only because they aren't losing the part of the game that they like and enjoy. It's the most narrow-minded kind of criticism. As I said above: "I'm not having a problem therefore there is not a problem" is shit logic.

Take ANY other aspect of the game and lock it behind Pathfinder and I guaranfuckingtee that suddenly people would understand the complaints about flying. Put raiding behind pathfinder. Put Battlegrounds or Arena behind a time-locked chain of BS achievements. Don't unlock pet battles or fishing until a year into the expansion. Withhold all your gear drops and artifact equipment behind completing every piece of content you'd use your gear and artifact on.

Do that then tell me that everything is fine and perfect.

But there has been numerous things that have been gated behind achievements. 310% flying was only available with the said mount it came with if you remember that being in-game if anything, it made people farm the bloody instance to get those achievements and still was a while after until it was slapped onto to vendors. When flying was put into the game, well you had Outlands that was broken up so really it made sense as well as Northrend, especially in Storm Peaks being part of the questing you know? But after that with Cataclysm it was I feel more to do with reviving that old content and making it easier to traverse, giving people that luxury because it was old world and hadn't been used since well level 58+ and majority of the end game being away from I guess the mother continents of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms if you get me. That's when it started to go a bit wrong and people got comfy.

I don'ty see it as fundamentally changing it but instead reverting back, in essence Vanilla only had flight paths and in Burning Crusade you levelled up through content and earned it. Same as Wrath, you levelled up through content and earned it too. Which is what is being done now... You go through content and earn it. Achievements is just an easy way for coding to reward you it really. Cataclysm was when it started to be given to people off the bat without much effort - pretty much the idea of welfare epics if you can see my train of thought.

Not having flying hasn't broke the game. Vanilla was that all the way through, the game coped in Warlords of Draenor, Legion and in fact every part of the game where you was levelling up and not using it. It must be a complete annoyance and actually worse though when you've spent a few years on developing content and have the user not even notice or interact with it because flying is like a quick escape from things.

[Deleted]

But there has been numerous things that have been gated behind achievements. 310% flying was only available with the said mount it came with if you remember that being in-game if anything, it made people farm the bloody instance to get those achievements and still was a while after until it was slapped onto to vendors. When flying was put into the game, well you had Outlands that was broken up so really it made sense as well as Northrend, especially in Storm Peaks being part of the questing you know? But after that with Cataclysm it was I feel more to do with reviving that old content and making it easier to traverse, giving people that luxury because it was old world and hadn't been used since well level 58+ and majority of the end game being away from I guess the mother continents of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms if you get me. That's when it started to go a bit wrong and people got comfy.

I don'ty see it as fundamentally changing it but instead reverting back, in essence Vanilla only had flight paths and in Burning Crusade you levelled up through content and earned it. Same as Wrath, you levelled up through content and earned it too. Which is what is being done now... You go through content and earn it. Achievements is just an easy way for coding to reward you it really. Cataclysm was when it started to be given to people off the bat without much effort - pretty much the idea of welfare epics if you can see my train of thought.

Not having flying hasn't broke the game. Vanilla was that all the way through, the game coped in Warlords of Draenor, Legion and in fact every part of the game where you was levelling up and not using it. It must be a complete annoyance and actually worse though when you've spent a few years on developing content and have the user not even notice or interact with it because flying is like a quick escape from things.

You still don't get it. I bet there are still people around who don't have 310% flying because they don't want to dish out another 5K after spending 5K for 280%. I did, because I had my Garrisons, before that, only some of my characters had 310% and the others had 280%. But - we got basic flying in BC with a speed of 60%. They increased it later to about 150%. It was a decision made by BLIZZARD to improve BASIC FLIGHT SPEED because it was GOOD for all players. Now don't tell me that it was breaking the game. All zones in BC have been perfectly fine to traverse on ground mounts, even the broken Netherstorm. I know, because I have done that on many characters while flying was not available for leveling.

Flying only started to "break the game" for Blizzard when they have started to push into the convoluted maze-like terrain to make us spend more time with travelling, because we spent less time with actually doing the content, and they did not want us to feel that.

This is the only reason why flying is "breaking the game". Everything else is bullshit. They want to slow down our content consumption, and since too much gating would create an incredible shitstorm, they instead use travel for that. Seconds add up to minutes, minutes to hours... you know how this works.

This also goes hand in hand with the RNG layers in loot. Random upgrades only exist to keep you occupied, doing content below your skill level because it could proc an item upgrade which could be an upgrade for your character. This is content on life support.

Edit: Flying was never a quick escape from things. Mounting up on a flying mount has a longer cast. And before that, I have to be out of combat.

[Natylyaz]

But there has been numerous things that have been gated behind achievements. 310% flying was only available with the said mount it came with if you remember that being in-game if anything, it made people farm the bloody instance to get those achievements and still was a while after until it was slapped onto to vendors. When flying was put into the game, well you had Outlands that was broken up so really it made sense as well as Northrend, especially in Storm Peaks being part of the questing you know? But after that with Cataclysm it was I feel more to do with reviving that old content and making it easier to traverse, giving people that luxury because it was old world and hadn't been used since well level 58+ and majority of the end game being away from I guess the mother continents of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms if you get me. That's when it started to go a bit wrong and people got comfy.

I don'ty see it as fundamentally changing it but instead reverting back, in essence Vanilla only had flight paths and in Burning Crusade you levelled up through content and earned it. Same as Wrath, you levelled up through content and earned it too. Which is what is being done now... You go through content and earn it. Achievements is just an easy way for coding to reward you it really. Cataclysm was when it started to be given to people off the bat without much effort - pretty much the idea of welfare epics if you can see my train of thought.

Not having flying hasn't broke the game. Vanilla was that all the way through, the game coped in Warlords of Draenor, Legion and in fact every part of the game where you was levelling up and not using it. It must be a complete annoyance and actually worse though when you've spent a few years on developing content and have the user not even notice or interact with it because flying is like a quick escape from things.

The awe of discovery and the pace of Vanilla are behind us now.
Flying provides a feeling of freedom and control which I really like in WoW, and it fits perfectly well with the RPG feel of getting progressively stronger. Reverting back in a RPG feels wrong and breaks enjoyment for me.

You compare earning flying in WotLK vs Legion, but in WotLK, flying was available for relevant content. In Legion, flying is available after you have sucked the content to death.

As for developers complaining that players escape everything, it's their design, and it's stupid to be so binary on their end.
Why not have open world flying, with some zones without flying? Suramar could be land-only, and Highmountain open to flying. I loved Storm Peaks, I am really disappointed at WoW about this.

[Kazgrel]

If you want to go by role playing:
My character should be able to dress and appear the way she wants to and not be limited to whatever the world throws her. After all, even we in real life can do that. Oo

If my Draenei doesn't want to look like a beggar/clown but like a proper priestess, she will wear one of the old Tier sets. Stats and all be damned.

Transmog enhances Immersion. It doesn't reduce it.

Mounts that are suddenly to dumb to fly.
Well.. that's another story.

With the whole immersion argument...that's kinda what I always thought pertaining to flying. "How the fuck did I forget how to fly this mount I've been on for x amount of time?". "It's colder up here" or "It's misty around here", comical as they sound...they could make that work. Now it's for..."reasons".

I do understand what they want to accomplish by restricting flight. I simply think they're dragging the thing out much longer than it needs to be...but my opinion on the matter is irrelevant, honestly; April will mark a year since I last logged into WoW (and by this point a year ago, all I was doing was logging in to make gold so I could...log in to make gold).

[Thimagryn]

You can change color of your shirt, yeah, but can't wear shirt during winter, cuz it's cold outside. Same here. You fight against demons - you should equip demonic armor. Armor dyeing is ok. Total change of appearance - isn't.

Yeah but I can't be a Panda either because I'm Human. If you want to apply real life logic to games, you're not going to get very far.

The end goal of transmog is allowing diversity in aesthetic customization. It works as intended. What you think the game should be or how things should work aren't a universal metric that any game needs to be using as a standard. There are plenty of games that already have gear progression without transmogs. Monster Hunter, Zelda Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, Guild Wars. None of those games are necessarily better than WoW in terms of gear aesthetics. You simply like that system more because it suits your expectations. That doesn't mean your opinion is universally agreed upon.

WoW isn't built around that type of gear diversity. Those days when you needed Resist gear to do raids are long gone. The amount of new gear added per expansion is limited by classes and armor types. This system doesn't support the type of progression you want. And to be frank, gear diversity has no place in the meta.

If you don't understand this RP aspect - they you don't even know, what RPG mean and shouldn't use it in your arguments.

None of that exists in most Zelda games, yet they are staple RPGs. Even in the latest game, all of your gear is purchased at stores in each city you visit, not rewarded through any means of content progression. It's literally as if you got your different tier sets by going to a gold vendor in each main city in WoW.

You're applying standards to a game that clearly doesn't follow. The RPG term is meaningless because it covers such a broad variety of systems, none of which hold the standard of 'Gear aesthetics must reflect your character progression'. This is true even of DnD, where you can have minor illusions, enchantments and potions that change your clothes, looks and even gender. Your standard is not universal.

My point is - you and Blizzard are double-standarded and hypocritical.

Transmog allows you to look exactly as you want, which is freedom of choice to play how you want. Allowing flight is also freedom of choice to play how you want. Gear Progression dictating your character customization wasn't a standard any more than ground-based travel pre-TBC was a standard. The game systems evolve, and the only standards that matter are the ones that are in effect in the latest version of the game. Everything we discuss should reflect realistic situations of what actually fits Blizzard's goals and direction. It's a matter of perspective, and if you can't understand this and simply wave it off as hypocrisy, then you don't fully understand the context of your own example within WoW.

We're not going back to a transmog-less WoW where gear diversity dictates aesthetics. Blizzard wants to remove flight. Blizzard doesn't want to remove Transmog. They're both still in the game. I don't know how you can call this a double standard.

[thunterman]

Well placed flight paths, the whistle (***5min CD***) and 2 hearthstones. I've not once encountered the situation were not being able to fly has irritated me,and I'm in the pro flight camp. As long as the terrain is well thought out (which it is) and there are plenty of alternative ways to get around (which there are) the need for flying isn't really there. It will be useful to have to level any remaining alts and doing emissaries e.t.c still.

[Evangeliste]

You still don't get it. I bet there are still people around who don't have 310% flying because they don't want to dish out another 5K after spending 5K for 280%. I did, because I had my Garrisons, before that, only some of my characters had 310% and the others had 280%. But - we got basic flying in BC with a speed of 60%. They increased it later to about 150%. It was a decision made by BLIZZARD to improve BASIC FLIGHT SPEED because it was GOOD for all players. Now don't tell me that it was breaking the game. All zones in BC have been perfectly fine to traverse on ground mounts, even the broken Netherstorm. I know, because I have done that on many characters while flying was not available for leveling.

Flying only started to "break the game" for Blizzard when they have started to push into the convoluted maze-like terrain to make us spend more time with travelling, because we spent less time with actually doing the content, and they did not want us to feel that.

This is the only reason why flying is "breaking the game". Everything else is bullshit. They want to slow down our content consumption, and since too much gating would create an incredible shitstorm, they instead use travel for that. Seconds add up to minutes, minutes to hours... you know how this works.

This also goes hand in hand with the RNG layers in loot. Random upgrades only exist to keep you occupied, doing content below your skill level because it could proc an item upgrade which could be an upgrade for your character. This is content on life support.

Edit: Flying was never a quick escape from things. Mounting up on a flying mount has a longer cast. And before that, I have to be out of combat.

I know about the different speeds, I know Blizzard upped it but my point was suggestive 7.2 flying was behind achievements. Well 310% also was at the time before it went to a vendor hence my point, it's not something new or outlandish.
But again as I said flying won't damage the game or it already would as you said with the Burning Crusade zones, that's what I was saying. You just confirmed it with your own experiences . And when has terrain not been maze-like and such? I recall when people use to use quest-addons before Blizzard added their own to actually help them do things faster because walking around terrains or mounting/running was odd to spot where you was going haha, and that was with flying in game, flying infact as I said makes it easy just to get to them and cheeses. I remember all mounts regardless of ground or flying had the same cast times. Maybe I'm wrong but I honestly can't remember that, they all use to be longer like 3 seconds then shortened down to like 1.5 seconds but not changed based on what they did.

You also confirmed what I was saying that flying cheeses the content. As I said previous expansions it was like a helping hand, but it got out of control when it was like a necessitate. It's not Blizzard developers as a whole I will admit, that is down usually to a few lead designers who then pushed it for ease and now the new developers like Ion are getting whacked because of withdrawing it.

To be fair your reasoning is a little out there to me. Considering from Vanilla upwards you had those quests which made you travel the world over and still now. You know Legion as I do you go to Bradensbrook you got to walk there and it's not exactly maze-like, its like a straight path just the odd bend here and there lol. You're going to get there a few seconds faster on a flying mount since you go in a straight line.

Flying was a quick escape when you was gathering for exmaple, you didn't get that often with previous expansions it was either suck up the combat and potentially lose a node when you was fighting or use other means. It's also used for again quests where you go to collect things, you can fly straight to it's location and dip dap rather than kill up to it which a mob could drop another quest. That's what I mean. That is also cheesing the content.

Content consumption has always been an issue, just because the array of people playing. Especially those chewing out full runs of MC or Naxx, 25-mans, Heroic, Mythic for glory, I don't see too much of a problem gating myself because the era of spending 15 hours a day in front of the computer is quite possibly gone? I don't know honestly but it's not really healthy and would take off a lot of pressure from those kind of raiders and you probably guessed that those raiders eventually just go "fuck this" because of it, so slowing it down, is it really a bad idea?

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The awe of discovery and the pace of Vanilla are behind us now.
Flying provides a feeling of freedom and control which I really like in WoW, and it fits perfectly well with the RPG feel of getting progressively stronger. Reverting back in a RPG feels wrong and breaks enjoyment for me.

You compare earning flying in WotLK vs Legion, but in WotLK, flying was available for relevant content. In Legion, flying is available after you have sucked the content to death.

As for developers complaining that players escape everything, it's their design, and it's stupid to be so binary on their end.
Why not have open world flying, with some zones without flying? Suramar could be land-only, and Highmountain open to flying. I loved Storm Peaks, I am really disappointed at WoW about this.

Vanilla is behind us but there are still things that occurred then happening now. For reverting back, so if they removed the artifact grind as a revert back, is it wrong? Or right? Again, that's going to be opinion. Anything they add or remove like Flex will not be 100% wrong or right.

As for Wrath flying, it was in the content from level 77 which is why I said that flying was quite important and served a bigger purpose that it would do overall. You couldn't go Storm Peaks really without a loan saddle or your own so you needed it, whereas as my person I was having the conversation with quite said he managed to do Burning Crusade content without a flying mount. So to be honest, if it wasn't added in the first place well, we wouldn't be talking about it haha. There will always be instances where it makes or breaks things. Fortunately players adapt.

As for design, you'd be surprised at how users find a way to do things. It's why they have PTR so that they can tap people's brains because 60 versus millions, there's going to be someone who will without a doubt find something those 60 brains couldn't discover because even some of those brains might not even play the game after being near it for months.
I agree they could do both with or without flying but in the end, the zones were capable and built in mind to not have flying as a need like Storm Peaks was. For legion it has coped without it considering like Wrath you travel to most instances unless you got a lock or people at summoning stones but that's because they reverted back to how things were before Dungeon Finder schemes took it away.

[A dot Ham]

They really have. By only enabling it when it doesn't matter anymore.

7.2 will enable flying, but it will be done after people have spent months on the Broken Isles doing their quests while not flying. After we unlock it, that will probably be it in terms of content, before they release the Argus patch. At that point we won't need to fly on the Broken Isles, because we'll be on Argus, which will probably be not flyable either.

It's just like with WoD, where we were only able to fly once nobody needed to anymore anyway. Because the expansion was over. When the flying patch came out, I had 2 days of gametime left. And I didn't renew my sub at that point and went on a 1-year break, because the expansion was over anyway.

This will be the standard now. Flying is gone.

Pretty happy with how I get around in Legion.

[Deleted]

Transmog is bad because it starts crossing the line of what "magic" should allow and what it shouldn't allow even in fantasy world.

I know another user who's just as like-minded as you, and clearly mentally stable to boot. You two should hang out.

[WowIsDead64]

Yeah but I can't be a Panda either because I'm Human. If you want to apply real life logic to games, you're not going to get very far.

The end goal of transmog is allowing diversity in aesthetic customization. It works as intended. What you think the game should be or how things should work aren't a universal metric that any game needs to be using as a standard. There are plenty of games that already have gear progression without transmogs. Monster Hunter, Zelda Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, Guild Wars. None of those games are necessarily better than WoW in terms of gear aesthetics. You simply like that system more because it suits your expectations. That doesn't mean your opinion is universally agreed upon.

WoW isn't built around that type of gear diversity. Those days when you needed Resist gear to do raids are long gone. The amount of new gear added per expansion is limited by classes and armor types. This system doesn't support the type of progression you want. And to be frank, gear diversity has no place in the meta

None of that exists in most Zelda games, yet they are staple RPGs. Even in the latest game, all of your gear is purchased at stores in each city you visit, not rewarded through any means of content progression. It's literally as if you got your different tier sets by going to a gold vendor in each main city in WoW.

You're applying standards to a game that clearly doesn't follow. The RPG term is meaningless because it covers such a broad variety of systems, none of which hold the standard of 'Gear aesthetics must reflect your character progression'. This is true even of DnD, where you can have minor illusions, enchantments and potions that change your clothes, looks and even gender. Your standard is not universal.

Transmog allows you to look exactly as you want, which is freedom of choice to play how you want. Allowing flight is also freedom of choice to play how you want. Gear Progression dictating your character customization wasn't a standard any more than ground-based travel pre-TBC was a standard. The game systems evolve, and the only standards that matter are the ones that are in effect in the latest version of the game. Everything we discuss should reflect realistic situations of what actually fits Blizzard's goals and direction. It's a matter of perspective, and if you can't understand this and simply wave it off as hypocrisy, then you don't fully understand the context of your own example within WoW.

We're not going back to a transmog-less WoW where gear diversity dictates aesthetics. Blizzard wants to remove flight. Blizzard doesn't want to remove Transmog. They're both still in the game. I don't know how you can call this a double standard.

This^. That's, what I actually try to say. You just can't say, that 'No flying' - is just some sort of MMORPG standard. Blizzard decided to remove flying in WOD and Legion, but it doesn't mean they're completely closed for discussion forever. We need to explain, why do we need flying and one of following things may happen: 1) They will fix problems with outdoor content and flying will stop being mandatory for enjoyable gameplay 2) They will implement better compromise. Buying xpack in it's middle - obviously isn't acceptable compromise 3) They will integrate flying into game. But telling me something like "This horse is dead - deal with it" - is just BS.

[Thimagryn]

You just can't say, that 'No flying' - is just some sort of MMORPG standard.

You realize I've been defending flight for longer than you've even been in this thread right?

Again, your example about transmog was wrong and not applicable to the case with flight. 'No flying' isn't an RPG standard, but neither is 'Flying'. There is no RPG standard. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's why your Transmog example doesn't work.

[Granyala]

You can change color of your shirt, yeah, but can't wear shirt during winter, cuz it's cold outside. Same here. You fight against demons - you should equip demonic armor. Armor dyeing is ok. Total change of appearance - isn't.

Actually I can. And I regularly do.

No I should not have to wear demonic armor.
All Armor is ultimately CRAFTED.
Monsters merely take them of failed heroes, and that logic is already failing hard, considering how many non sentient beasts we fight as raid bosses.
Don't ask me why a demon possessed dragon collects used priestesses panties.... >.<

As such, it would actually make much more RP sense if I gather rare and powerful materials and let some NPC e.g.: a gifted tailor of the Aldor priesthood craft my armor.
No It would not look like I'm some sort of half demon, instead it would embody the beliefs of my character and the armor's creator. (e.g.: Naaru themed, light blessed).

You can rage, and argue as much as you want but ultimately you cannot argue logically against transmog.
Esp not on the grounds of role play.

[WowIsDead64]

You realize I've been defending flight for longer than you've even been in this thread right?

Dunno, English - isn't my native language. I've noticed, that many people take word "you" way too personally. In my language when I say "You just can't say" - it's common phrase, that means the same, as "One can't say".

[FelPlague]

Dunno, English - isn't my native language. I've noticed, that many people take word "you" way too personally. In my language when I say "You just can't say" - it's common phrase, that means the same, as "One can't say".

so say "people cant just say"
because if i say
FUCK YOU
your gunna be offended?
"oh i just ment people in general"
well then no you say
FUCK PEOPLE


felplague teaches english

[Granyala]

Dunno, English - isn't my native language. I've noticed, that many people take word "you" way too personally. In my language when I say "You just can't say" - it's common phrase, that means the same, as "One can't say".

What language would that be? Certainly not true for the German one. If you use "Du kannst nicht" you are addressing a specific person.
It would be possible to use a more general "Man kann nicht", the English equivalent would probably be:
"One cannot " instead of "you cannot".

[WowIsDead64]

What language would that be? Certainly not true for the German one. If you use "Du kannst nicht" you are addressing a specific person.
It would be possible to use a more general "Man kann nicht", the English equivalent would probably be:
"One cannot " instead of "you cannot".

Yeah, there are some problems with English language. It's doesn't have plural form for "it" and I feel akward, when I use "they". Also plural and singular forms of "you" - are the same, so people don't understand, when I mean "personally you" and when I mean "you all".

[Deleted]

Character boosting has nothing to do with Transmog. You're comparing two completely disparate things. Every piece of Transmog a player has was earned by that player. They didn't buy it in a cash shop. They spent time farming for it, either in a group when the content was relevant, or by soloing out of date raids and dungeons. I'm not even sure what point it is you're trying to make here.

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Complaining about completely legitimate issues. But I suppose as long as you're not having a problem, there isn't a problem, right?

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That's true. Players don't own the game, they only pay for access to it. However, you have to stop and consider that flying was part of the game for most of its life-span. It's been around longer than it hasn't, and is part of what made WoW different from every other bog-standard MMORPG on the market. By taking it away Blizzard is fundamentally changing what made WoW good in the first place.

Obviously some people will disagree, but that's only because they aren't losing the part of the game that they like and enjoy. It's the most narrow-minded kind of criticism. As I said above: "I'm not having a problem therefore there is not a problem" is shit logic.

Take ANY other aspect of the game and lock it behind Pathfinder and I guaranfuckingtee that suddenly people would understand the complaints about flying. Put raiding behind pathfinder. Put Battlegrounds or Arena behind a time-locked chain of BS achievements. Don't unlock pet battles or fishing until a year into the expansion. Withhold all your gear drops and artifact equipment behind completing every piece of content you'd use your gear and artifact on.

Do that then tell me that everything is fine and perfect.

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I can tell you're new to the discussion, because you're completely glossing over the legitimate arguments for flying and how it could make the game better, more interesting, and more immersive. If you really think people who want flying are just crying because they're entitled, then it shows everyone that you didn't even bother to research the issue.

I can tell you instead that you don't know what I'm referring to. Which is funny considering you also.dont know what wowisdead is talking about.
And no, there no legitimate or reasonable arguments. Flying gives the player too much. That's why it was removed and that's why it'll keep on being that way. Because it's better for the game.

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You still don't get it. I bet there are still people around who don't have 310% flying because they don't want to dish out another 5K after spending 5K for 280%. I did, because I had my Garrisons, before that, only some of my characters had 310% and the others had 280%. But - we got basic flying in BC with a speed of 60%. They increased it later to about 150%. It was a decision made by BLIZZARD to improve BASIC FLIGHT SPEED because it was GOOD for all players. Now don't tell me that it was breaking the game. All zones in BC have been perfectly fine to traverse on ground mounts, even the broken Netherstorm. I know, because I have done that on many characters while flying was not available for leveling.

Flying only started to "break the game" for Blizzard when they have started to push into the convoluted maze-like terrain to make us spend more time with travelling, because we spent less time with actually doing the content, and they did not want us to feel that.

This is the only reason why flying is "breaking the game". Everything else is bullshit. They want to slow down our content consumption, and since too much gating would create an incredible shitstorm, they instead use travel for that. Seconds add up to minutes, minutes to hours... you know how this works.

This also goes hand in hand with the RNG layers in loot. Random upgrades only exist to keep you occupied, doing content below your skill level because it could proc an item upgrade which could be an upgrade for your character. This is content on life support.

Edit: Flying was never a quick escape from things. Mounting up on a flying mount has a longer cast. And before that, I have to be out of combat.

The developers have already talked about this in depth. To suit terrain for flying zones need to be huge with lots of empty space. Like icecrown or storm peaks.
A good example of flying in game is the drakkari area in wotlk. Without flying it's a slow descent into madness. With flying you're allowed to get to the end no problem without seeing anything. This is what they want to avoid and this is why the system we have now works.

[Valrysha]

If flying is gone. Fine?
I'm enjoying just riding around on my mount on the ground. If I had the option to fly..I'd be pretty stupid to not do it.

[Deleted]

The awe of discovery and the pace of Vanilla are behind us now.
Flying provides a feeling of freedom and control which I really like in WoW, and it fits perfectly well with the RPG feel of getting progressively stronger. Reverting back in a RPG feels wrong and breaks enjoyment for me.

You compare earning flying in WotLK vs Legion, but in WotLK, flying was available for relevant content. In Legion, flying is available after you have sucked the content to death.

As for developers complaining that players escape everything, it's their design, and it's stupid to be so binary on their end.
Why not have open world flying, with some zones without flying? Suramar could be land-only, and Highmountain open to flying. I loved Storm Peaks, I am really disappointed at WoW about this.

Because switching between flying and no flying is a disaster to implement on a way that isn't absolutely ridiculous.

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Well placed flight paths, the whistle (***5min CD***) and 2 hearthstones. I've not once encountered the situation were not being able to fly has irritated me,and I'm in the pro flight camp. As long as the terrain is well thought out (which it is) and there are plenty of alternative ways to get around (which there are) the need for flying isn't really there. It will be useful to have to level any remaining alts and doing emissaries e.t.c still.

Pretty much.

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I know another user who's just as like-minded as you, and clearly mentally stable to boot. You two should hang out.

That second post is... hummm.... scary actually.

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so say "people cant just say"
because if i say
FUCK YOU
your gunna be offended?
"oh i just ment people in general"
well then no you say
FUCK PEOPLE


felplague teaches english

You should write a chdrens book.

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If flying is gone. Fine?
I'm enjoying just riding around on my mount on the ground. If I had the option to fly..I'd be pretty stupid to not do it.

It's the path of least resistance, something the developers have referred to in the flying debate.

[SirCowdog]

But there has been numerous things that have been gated behind achievements. 310% flying was only available with the said mount it came with if you remember that being in-game if anything, it made people farm the bloody instance to get those achievements and still was a while after until it was slapped onto to vendors.

I see the point you're trying to make here, but you have to look at the context: Players had access to flying that wasn't 310%. The final step was simply an added bonus. Currently that's not the case, as flying is 100% locked behind a wall of garbage that guarantees that the reward simply isn't worth the effort. They've taken everything you say is good about unlocks and farming and ruined it.

When flying was put into the game, well you had Outlands that was broken up so really it made sense as well as Northrend, especially in Storm Peaks being part of the questing you know? But after that with Cataclysm it was I feel more to do with reviving that old content and making it easier to traverse, giving people that luxury because it was old world and hadn't been used since well level 58+ and majority of the end game being away from I guess the mother continents of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms if you get me. That's when it started to go a bit wrong and people got comfy.

The problem is that Pathfinder has nothing to do with comfort levels. It's not a matter of trying to get people used to working for flying again. This isn't about players being too lazy to farm for flying! Whatever value working to obtain might have had is wasted due to the simle fact that the requirements to get it ensure that there's nothing left to use flying on! The value proposition is absolutely terrible!

I don't understand why people find this so difficult to comprehend.

I don'ty see it as fundamentally changing it but instead reverting back, in essence Vanilla only had flight paths and in Burning Crusade you levelled up through content and earned it. Same as Wrath, you levelled up through content and earned it too. Which is what is being done now... You go through content and earn it. Achievements is just an easy way for coding to reward you it really. Cataclysm was when it started to be given to people off the bat without much effort - pretty much the idea of welfare epics if you can see my train of thought.

WoW hasn't been vanillna for a very VERY long time. Like I keep telling people: Flying has been part of WoW for a hell of a long longer than it hasn't. Besides which, trying to recreate nostalgia is a terrible mistake. You can not put the genie back into the bottle.

Not having flying hasn't broke the game. Vanilla was that all the way through, the game coped in Warlords of Draenor, Legion and in fact every part of the game where you was levelling up and not using it. It must be a complete annoyance and actually worse though when you've spent a few years on developing content and have the user not even notice or interact with it because flying is like a quick escape from things.

That is the fault of the designers attempting to ignore that flying exists. It is not the players' fault that Blizzard is trying to force content that doesn't make sense onto players. If you KNOW players have flight and you still make content that will be skipped by flying, how is that the fault of anyone but Blizzard? THEY made this into a problem. They created this issue by ignoring the fact that players want and like flying.

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I can tell you instead that you don't know what I'm referring to. Which is funny considering you also.dont know what wowisdead is talking about.
And no, there no legitimate or reasonable arguments. Flying gives the player too much. That's why it was removed and that's why it'll keep on being that way. Because it's better for the game.

As far as I can tell you're just one more person who's regurgitating the halfassed argument of: "It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want". As though anything Blizzard does is perfect and good simply because it was Blizzard who did it.

When you say something like "Flying gives players too much" it only makes sense within the context of a world that's designed to ignore that flying exists. OF COURSE flying ruins content that doesn't take it into account. That's the entire point people like me have been making since the beginning: Create content that actually USES flying instead of ignoring it. This attempt to force the issue of ground-only content in an attempt to regress back to the days of vanilla is a mistake.

The developers have already talked about this in depth. To suit terrain for flying zones need to be huge with lots of empty space. Like icecrown or storm peaks.
A good example of flying in game is the drakkari area in wotlk. Without flying it's a slow descent into madness. With flying you're allowed to get to the end no problem without seeing anything. This is what they want to avoid and this is why the system we have now works.

And you actually believed that excuse? All the part you quoted really said is "We want to cram more stuff into a smaller space so we can spend less time actually making good level design". There was no discussion of verticality, or better use of those intervening space. Storm Peaks and Icecrown are STILL some of the best zones in the game. Flying only presents a problem for weak, lazy area design.