Destiny: Illidan and Azshara

[ravenmoon]

Malfurion did save Azeroth at least 3 times. You do not get more remarkable than that. I don't think any human or orc even comes close to that. He also did it without boasting about the whole destiny thing. You don't need "destiny" to choose you to do great things. You just freaking do it.

Night elves have done lots of things but they are not just individuals you are obsessed over, so you tend to overlook them.

I'm not obsessed with Azshara or Illidan, I like Illidan, and I think Azshara has more to her than many people think - or at least she should have.. understanding her basic character at the time of the war of the ancients up till now does not mean there wasn''t more to her than we've seen, especially in an origin story we know little about, and we're only guessing at Azshara in the last 10,000 years, she's been quiet till now, - there's a lot you can fill in both those time slots.

And yes, I am aware of Malfurion too, but contraty to what you say, he like Illidan and Tyrande hug the spotlight - i.e. theyr'e the only night elves that are written amazingly. you could say the night elves are a 1 man show or now a 2 man show/possibly 3.. the people are pretty lame in the warcraft universe, in particular in wow. and i don't like it. I feel that blood elves by contrast are full of strong individuals and whoever they pick for a job, they always do it fiendishly well, and are rather badass about it too.

You don't get that with night elves, except if they're a Stormrage or Tyrande prior to WoW. In wow the various character night elves are often lame ducks, sissies, inept, get things wrong, misguided even about their own origins, their so called goddess, magic, its like everything that was good about them ahs been trashed or exposed to have been a false expectation, an overhype or not quite what it promised to be. And there is no reason for that storywise. They just nerfed them as if they were balancing races. You dont need to balance races in the lore for gameplay purposes, you just need to balance classes.

And so super intelligent race of elves - look stupid, super strength - often appear quite weak and easily beaten, and longevity - this virtual immortality they are often portrayed as late teens early tweens - no way an ancient would be so tactically obtuse as say Tyrande in MoP or make such stupid errors as in the Ashenvale/Azshara or stonetalon mountain quests in cata. Not saying the result would necessarily have been different, but the y night elves could certainly have been written far better in light of orcs, blood elves and goblins they were totally trashed by.

Stormrage show.

[Wildmoon]

I think Burning Crusade damaged Illidan, but Legion was final nail into the coffin.

I absolutely hate this twisted messiah thing they pulled off. For me he lost all his human qualities you could relate to. I enjoyed when he was a tragic hero doing all kind of nasty stuff with dual intentions, to gain more power and try to help his nation or loved ones. All his intentions were not as bad, just his methods were questionable. Then they tried to make him a monster to justify him being a boss, so he lost all his redeemable qualities.

Now it all feels so weird, like listening to a doctor from Auschwitz who did all his research about hypothermia on subjects without any regards for their life. Yes, pretty much all we know about hypothermia is out of those experiments, but is it right to just suddenly be okay with it because an Ice Age stuck in?

Yeah, Legion is trying to force Illidan into the kind of character he is not meant to be. Illidan as a character works best when his allegiance belongs to no one but himself, his intentions clouded and his methods reckless.

[ravenmoon]

Yeah, Legion is trying to force Illidan into the kind of character he is not meant to be. Illidan as a character works best when his allegiance belongs to no one but himself, his intentions clouded and his methods reckless.

In all fairness I haven't seen legion try to do any of that, i still think people have grossly taken the novel Illidan out of context (esp by not reading it) and colouring anything in legion by it. Xe'ra gives a good context to Illidan's actions, it is very much in the spirit of the character Illidan both in WC3 and in the WotA if people bother to actually read it. @RH92 - TBC will always be the anomaly in illidan's character profile, it did not fit WC3 RoC/TFT , it did not fit wotA - it presented an Illidan all of a sudden gone crazy and bad - i.e. they needed a popular villain for their first expansion, something big, and threw Illidan under the bus for it, as they started killing off all their major characters.

I like how they brought Illidan back, i don't mind them restoring his original destiny, they did try to ride the TBC era as a detached Illidan not clued in to what was going on, which they can get away with, becuase unlike other expansion bosses, Illidan really does nothing himself in TBC except make some speech at the top of the black temple, everything else that happens in that expansion has the people you actually deal with involved in it. It was after TBC they decided to make expansion bosses feature far more heavily.. Illidan's quietness in TBC seems to have worked well for him, cos they don't have to fix him, just show us our view of him was not the whole picture

[MikeBogina]

In all fairness I haven't seen legion try to do any of that

You haven't seen the ending of the Xera quest where she blames you for killing Illidan, except Demon Hunters who she praises for following Illidan?

He soldout to the Legion in Frozen Throne and in BC, he tried to enslave or kill all the inhabitants of Outland. His whole dialogue when he fights the raid doesn't fit at all with what they claimed he was doing.


If Sargeras is bad, so is Illidan, just on a smaller scale.

[Oneirophobia]

I feel a lot of people aren't taking Azsahara or the night elves seriously enough to think on this properly. You don't get to be so adored and empress of such a distinguished group of people described as benevolent and highly intelligent without being exceptional in both those arenas and then some. So far all i've heard is basically a description of what Azshara has become, but know intuining about how she must have been like to get to that level.

She got there via manipulation. The world is full of people who have no problem saying and doing nice things as long as it nets them what they want. It isn't even a little bit of a stretch that this is what Azshara did.

....

I can assure you, it won't be that simple.

This is WoW, it almost always is that simple. When was the last time there was a huge fan-concocted twist-theory that actually happened? The simplest, most hinted-at answer is almost always the case with this story.

- - - Updated - - -

You haven't seen the ending of the Xera quest where she blames you for killing Illidan, except Demon Hunters who she praises for following Illidan?

He soldout to the Legion in Frozen Throne and in BC, he tried to enslave or kill all the inhabitants of Outland. His whole dialogue when he fights the raid doesn't fit at all with what they claimed he was doing.


If Sargeras is bad, so is Illidan, just on a smaller scale.

It will always bother me that not just one, but several Naaru including A'dal, bug you over and over to kill Illlidan. You'd think at least one of them would be aware of why he is important or that we shouldn't be killing him.

But, that is what happens when you don't plan ahead. Blizz wasn't aware they were going to do an Illidan redemption story until ... I wanna say the Blizzcon after Cataclysm. I remember Metzen on stage saying something like, "I dunno, yeah, an Illidan redemption story might be cool. Would you guys like that?" *crowd cheering* "I am a big fan of redemption. I don't know about Arthas though, I think we'd like him to stay bad."

[MikeBogina]

It will always bother me that not just one, but several Naaru including A'dal, bug you over and over to kill Illlidan. You'd think at least one of them would be aware of why he is important or that we shouldn't be killing him.

exactly, it's like these all knowing, all in tune with the Light beings either made a mistake, or Blizzard forgot what happened in BC. Or they think we're stupid. The only thing I can think of, is that Xera isn't what she claims to be and what perfect timing that when we bring her to another Naaru, the Legion kills it. So now we have no Naaru atm, confirming her shit.

But, that is what happens when you don't plan ahead. Blizz wasn't aware they were going to do an Illidan redemption story until ... I wanna say the Blizzcon after Cataclysm. I remember Metzen on stage saying something like, "I dunno, yeah, an Illidan redemption story might be cool. Would you guys like that?" *crowd cheering* "I am a big fan of redemption. I don't know about Arthas though, I think we'd like him to stay bad."

Holy shit, this whole time I thought i was the only one who remembered that. That moment pissed me off so much, that he basically asked the fans for ideas. "ohh you actually want us to resurrect a dead character and redeem him?? Sure thing" And all because they screwed up on not showing illidan at all and showing arthas too much.

Always felt like this whole chosen one/redemption was Arthas' story(them not revealing what happened to his corpse and saying his body is important) and then putting it on Anduin and then finally giving it to Illidan. Kinda like How Thrall was supposed to be the new guardian and then earth warder and then nothing.

[Wildmoon]

In all fairness I haven't seen legion try to do any of that, i still think people have grossly taken the novel Illidan out of context (esp by not reading it) and colouring anything in legion by it. Xe'ra gives a good context to Illidan's actions, it is very much in the spirit of the character Illidan both in WC3 and in the WotA if people bother to actually read it. @RH92 - TBC will always be the anomaly in illidan's character profile, it did not fit WC3 RoC/TFT , it did not fit wotA - it presented an Illidan all of a sudden gone crazy and bad - i.e. they needed a popular villain for their first expansion, something big, and threw Illidan under the bus for it, as they started killing off all their major characters.

I like how they brought Illidan back, i don't mind them restoring his original destiny, they did try to ride the TBC era as a detached Illidan not clued in to what was going on, which they can get away with, becuase unlike other expansion bosses, Illidan really does nothing himself in TBC except make some speech at the top of the black temple, everything else that happens in that expansion has the people you actually deal with involved in it. It was after TBC they decided to make expansion bosses feature far more heavily.. Illidan's quietness in TBC seems to have worked well for him, cos they don't have to fix him, just show us our view of him was not the whole picture

But you are wrong. Legion whitewashed Illidan by trying to make clear that Illidan's intentions were always good and what he did were the only choices he could have made. The scenario in blackrook hold is the best example of this. It played out very differently in the novel. Not to mention all the shits that Xe'ra told you how Illidan was misunderstood and always a good guy.

I don't know what Illidan you are talking about but the first iteration of Illidan in WC3's WotA was someone that I would call evil. He betrayed his brother and his entire race because he did not want to lose magic and was salty.

[Qualia]

You haven't seen the ending of the Xera quest where she blames you for killing Illidan, except Demon Hunters who she praises for following Illidan?

That isn't exactly the case, though. Xe'ra didn't admonish the players just for killing Illidan. She admonished the us for doing it with hatred in our hearts that corrupted our mind ("For I saw his fall, and I saw you, your shadow casting a dark pall over his body. I felt hatred in your heart as it corrupted your mind"). Even the non-DH player who didn't kill Illidan was told something similar ("I showed you Illidan's life so that you would understand why he fought and made the choices that he made. Yours was the vessel that needed preparation. If the hatred and doubt in your heart has subsided, take your place at the side of the Light"). I've always taken it as some kind of zen philosophy (i.e: don't fight with hatred, don't let negative emotions corrupt / affect you, etc. - that kind of thing) rather than a "FU for killing Illidan".

[RH92]

In all fairness I haven't seen legion try to do any of that, i still think people have grossly taken the novel Illidan out of context (esp by not reading it) and colouring anything in legion by it. Xe'ra gives a good context to Illidan's actions, it is very much in the spirit of the character Illidan both in WC3 and in the WotA if people bother to actually read it. @RH92 - TBC will always be the anomaly in illidan's character profile, it did not fit WC3 RoC/TFT , it did not fit wotA - it presented an Illidan all of a sudden gone crazy and bad - i.e. they needed a popular villain for their first expansion, something big, and threw Illidan under the bus for it, as they started killing off all their major characters.

I like how they brought Illidan back, i don't mind them restoring his original destiny, they did try to ride the TBC era as a detached Illidan not clued in to what was going on, which they can get away with, becuase unlike other expansion bosses, Illidan really does nothing himself in TBC except make some speech at the top of the black temple, everything else that happens in that expansion has the people you actually deal with involved in it. It was after TBC they decided to make expansion bosses feature far more heavily.. Illidan's quietness in TBC seems to have worked well for him, cos they don't have to fix him, just show us our view of him was not the whole picture

My problem with Illidan development is not the story itself. I understand it, it makes sense, I just don't like it.

My only issue is, they made Illidan another boring all seeing jerk. He no longer is a character you feel pity for. I liked him when he was able to obtain great power, do some great things, but ultimately fail in some sense - be it relationships or finding his place in the world. It felt human, like he wasn't some superhuman non-sense succeeding in everything despite the setbacks.

[ravenmoon]

My problem with Illidan development is not the story itself. I understand it, it makes sense, I just don't like it.

My only issue is, they made Illidan another boring all seeing jerk. He no longer is a character you feel pity for. I liked him when he was able to obtain great power, do some great things, but ultimately fail in some sense - be it relationships or finding his place in the world. It felt human, like he wasn't some superhuman non-sense succeeding in everything despite the setbacks.

that's a very good point - i like that too about Illidan -- however, notice i used the present tense, cos we still don't know how he's gonna actually play out character wise..however after TBC, the guys got to have gained some significant personal development in controlling his passions and rages - in order to elevate him he'd have to have grown up a bit from then. Okay, accepted, you odn't like the current development because of this, but hold on a bit till we see how Illidan plays out with his new found knowledge, wisdom, power and inner calm.

The demon inside angle that we kill in mythic (or rather subdue) explains to us his sideways off kilter actions in tBC, this possibly returns Illidan to TFT state, with a little bit of calmer zen to him. Now I would love to see him as the maverick pushing the limits of the night elven people to take on the demons. They're too afraid to handle fel, and they're wise to be so, but they've been rather subdued, lacklustre, floundering a bit, - i would like to see him as some sorta elven maverick beacon - unlike his brother that inspires to calm and wisdom, Illidan is to fury and vengeance against the Illidan. The night elves (and blood elves to a lesser extent) have a lot of rage to deal with against the legion. They're not Pandaren focuisng the inner chi - most of the night elven folk especially the kaldorei (not really the quel and shal'dorei as much) took and felt the brunt of a fallen kingdom as they had to live in the aftermath - watched everything they hold dear destroyed by the legion - remember it's the legion that destroys the empire, not the sundering, the sundering just buries it. Homes, families, loved ones, hopes, dreams - they were people that reached the stars and their original destiny changed because of this (notice how that destiny isn't changed with the shal'dorei who still reach to the stars in the original capacity)

So they'll have inner rage in them I'm sure they channel when fighting the demons, now Illidan could be so cool galvanizing them or at least some of the night elves/blood elf males - since male-dom amongst the elves has been a bit of a joke mostly - you can imagine a village lost and the priestesses and wardens coming in guarding, the legion hiding in a nearby orc village, the priestess won't order a n attack to avoid klling innocent civilians, hold back to strategise - but Illidan already has - it seems reckless, but it isn't, he knows exactly what to do, and some of the elves, (mostly male, some female) join him,.. he burns the village down, smokes out the legion and slaughters everyone of them, not a single normal orcish civilian is harmed.

Now that would be badass.

[Aleksej89]

Azshara was always 497% pure evil and self-serving.
Not even a single shred of good in her.

Azshara will probably die as a boss in a mid-expansion raid.
She will most likely start the fight all pretty looking and then change into her true inner monstrosity.

[ravenmoon]

Azshara was always 497% pure evil and self-serving.
Not even a single shred of good in her.

Azshara will probably die as a boss in a mid-expansion raid.
She will most likely start the fight all pretty looking and then change into her true inner monstrosity.

you all talk like it's a done deal, like you know everything about her, blizzard have told us so little about her, there is so much they can write that can change a lot about how you perceive her and write a very surprising end game concerning her.

All you can lay claim to know, any of us really, is Azshara's state of mind and heart when she had already been corrupted by her addiction and seduced by Sargeras. We know so little else, we've seen displays of power as a naga and rumours of her exploit but there is still a veil ove rher, and you shouldn't just speak like it's a d one deal, when so little i s known of her past prior to the legion invitation and her 10,000 years as a naga.

[Frontenac]

The problem is that the few things we know about her before the Legion show us that she already was a self-centered, vain queen, with little love for her people. She was already as corrupt as the Highborn ruling class, her favorites, when she was seduced by Sargeras. Of course, it could all change. It would not be the first retcon Blizzard would have made. I just don't believe that it would improve the story to turn her into yet another character turned villain by her initial good intentions.

[Aleksej89]

Blizz has been telling us azshara is.pure evil for well over a.decade.
Techically blizz ca do watever.they.want but it seems unlikely they.will turn her from pure evil.
Even her appearances in legion show.her. to be evil.

Typed from thitty touchskreen so fuck typos.