"Walls/fences work!!" oops.

[Jun]

Obama's wall cost taxpayers billions. There was several iterations of said wall also. One in particular cost billions and never even got built. The one they actually expanded on cost taxpayers billions also. I am in favor of expanding the existing wall since it's the most practical solution than a solid wall. If the democrats want amnesty with no protest for illegals then secure the border first.

Can I get a source on that?

Cause if you replaced the word Obama with Trump, it's reading like a news article from a few years in the future.

[Gorgodeus]

They arent paying SS taxes, SS taxes are not optional

And you would be wrong, as I have already pointed out to you earlier in this thread.

[Kaleredar]

I've seen this before, and I think someone linked the 2015 year numbers that showed more visa overstays than illegal entries, but of the 11 million total illegal immigrants the best estimates seem to rest at around 40% visa overstays. Meaning, the majority of illegal immigrants are here by illegally entering the United States.

If you have other data I'm open to it.

But the idea that unless all illegal immigration is from illegal entry a wall is good for nothing doesn't make sense to me. It seems like that's what you're saying.

Well seeing as Trump himself said his wall could basically be beaten with a ladder and a rope, I'm doubtful of its abilities to keep illegal immigrants out, period.


And moreover, walls have never worked. The wall now doesn't work. The Berlin wall didn't work. The great wall of china didn't work. The DMZ zone between North and South Korea doesn't work. Hell the white house fence hasn't worked. Walls have a very poor track record.


I want to know when it became a matter of "well obviously the wall is going to work" and then it becoming some sort of fiscal/moral debate. No. That's assuming far too much. On top of the fiscal/moral debate, it has to be PROVEN that a wall will even do what it's saying it's going to do. Because if someone spends billions of dollars and alienates an important trade partner "for a metaphor" that doesn't actually do anything, they're just an idiot.


So I ask where the proof of the wall working is. Many illegal immigrants overstay their visas. The wall does nothing to stop that. Walls historically have not worked.

So where's the proof the wall will work? After you can justify whether it's even going to do the thing you want it to do, then we can talk about whether that's right or wrong or even remotely important to the United States.

[mage21]

Well seeing as Trump himself said his wall could basically be beaten with a ladder and a rope, I'm doubtful of its abilities to keep illegal immigrants out, period.


And moreover, walls have never worked. The wall now doesn't work. The Berlin wall didn't work. The great wall of china didn't work. The DMZ zone between North and South Korea doesn't work. Hell the white house fence hasn't worked. Walls have a very poor track record.


I want to know when it became a matter of "well obviously the wall is going to work" and then it becoming some sort of fiscal/moral debate. No. That's assuming far too much. On top of the fiscal/moral debate, it has to be PROVEN that a wall will even do what it's saying it's going to do. Because if someone spends billions of dollars and alienates an important trade partner "for a metaphor" that doesn't actually do anything, they're just an idiot.


So I ask where the proof of the wall working is. Many illegal immigrants overstay their visas. The wall does nothing to stop that. Walls historically have not worked.

So where's the proof the wall will work? After you can justify whether it's even going to do the thing you want it to do, then we can talk about whether that's right or wrong or even remotely important to the United States.

Here's an article detailing how border fences are effective: https://www.conservativereview.com/c...er-fences-work

And the border fence only needs to be 9-12% effective to pay for itself, according to the CIS: http://cis.org/The-Cost-of-a-Border-...al-Immigration

[satimy]

I've seen this before, and I think someone linked the 2015 year numbers that showed more visa overstays than illegal entries, but of the 11 million total illegal immigrants the best estimates seem to rest at around 40% visa overstays. Meaning, the majority of illegal immigrants are here by illegally entering the United States.

If you have other data I'm open to it.

But the idea that unless all illegal immigration is from illegal entry a wall is good for nothing doesn't make sense to me. It seems like that's what you're saying.

The census has also said the amount of illegal immigrants is 10 million for a decade, credible studies have placed it close to 30 million and growing every year. Its particularly complicated in that if 2 illegals come here and have a kid, the kid is a citizen. That needs to be changed as well to only apply to kids born of a citizen parent

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And you would be wrong, as I have already pointed out to you earlier in this thread.

Show me where illegal laborers pay SS tax. I never said they pay no tax, I said they dont pay SS tax.

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Actually, they are. You do not need a SS card to pay taxes. They use a TPIN in order to pay income tax. "Illegals do not pay income taxes" is a myth.

Income tax=/ SS tax so how does that apply?

[Kaleredar]

Here's an article detailing how border fences are effective: https://www.conservativereview.com/c...er-fences-work

I have a feeling your source is biased, and it's based on the fact that the source is called "conservative review"

And the border fence only needs to be 9-12% effective to pay for itself, according to the CIS: http://cis.org/The-Cost-of-a-Border-...al-Immigration

Again, another potentially biased source.

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The census has also said the amount of illegal immigrants is 10 million for a decade, credible studies have placed it close to 30 million and growing every year. Its particularly complicated in that if 2 illegals come here and have a kid, the kid is a citizen. That needs to be changed as well to only apply to kids born of a citizen parent

"credible sources say..." is not a credible source, it's a proof surrogate.

Where is said credible source?

[Barnabas]

Can I get a source on that?

Cause if you replaced the word Obama with Trump, it's reading like a news article from a few years in the future.

All during obamas presidency. He even built fencing that has 9200+ holes in it illegals cut. A border wall isn't some shocking new idea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...a-big-success/

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers...ry/i_bds01.pdf

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lance-contract

[Gorgodeus]

The census has also said the amount of illegal immigrants is 10 million for a decade, credible studies have placed it close to 30 million and growing every year. Its particularly complicated in that if 2 illegals come here and have a kid, the kid is a citizen. That needs to be changed as well to only apply to kids born of a citizen parent

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Show me where illegal laborers pay SS tax. I never said they pay no tax, I said they dont pay SS tax.

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Income tax=/ SS tax so how does that apply?

Do you not know when SS tax is paid? It is deducted at the same time as income tax? lmao

They use ITINs (Individual Tax Identification Number). They do not need a SS card to pay income tax or SS tax.

Over 3 million people paid over $870 million in income taxes using an ITIN, and according to the IRS, ITIN filers pay $9 billion in payroll taxes annually. At least 50 percent of undocumented immigrant households currently file income tax returns using Individual Tax Identification Numbers (ITINs), according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy.

In addition, ITEP (Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy) reports that in 2013 alone, the average effective state and local tax rate of undocumented immigrants was 8 percent, compared to 5.4 percent for the top 1 percent of all taxpayers. This translated into $11.6 billion in state and local taxes paid by the undocumented community in 2013.

As I stated before, you are simply believing the myths and falsehoods the anti-immigration crowd wants you to believe.

[Calfredd]

All during obamas presidency. He even built fencing that has 9200+ holes in it illegals cut. A border wall isn't some shocking new idea.

You do still know the "wall" the person you quoted was talking about was the wall around Obama's house right?

[Barnabas]

You do still know the "wall" the person you quoted was talking about was the wall around Obama's house right?

I'm showing obamas previous experience with walls and fences.

[mage21]

I have a feeling your source is biased, and it's based on the fact that the source is called "conservative review"



Again, another potentially biased source.

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"credible sources say..." is not a credible source, it's a proof surrogate.

Where is said credible source?

Contrary to popular belief, the oddly-named "Conservative Review" is actually wildly liberal.

[Kaleredar]

Contrary to popular belief, the oddly-named "Conservative Review" is actually wildly liberal.

Okay.

That still doesn't make it a non-biased news source, now does it?

[Captain N]

All during obamas presidency. He even built fencing that has 9200+ holes in it illegals cut. A border wall isn't some shocking new idea.

According to your very own sources Boeing was given the contract for SBINet in 2006. Are you blaming Obama for something that was setup 2 years before he became President? Hell it even started falling apart less than a year into Obama's Presidency and was completely halted in 2011 -- I know it's easy to blame Obama for things when you don't read your own sources...but this has absolutely nothing to do with him.

What went wrong? In part, the project was poorly managed. The Government Accountability Office started raising concerns in 2007, a year after the contract was given to Boeing. (At that point, the first phase of the project was expected to be completed by the end of 2008.) Guidelines and time frames set by the government were vague, forcing Boeing to make things up as they went along. Testing was managed poorly and bugs cropped up faster than they were addressed. In the GAO's words, "[a]bout 1,300 SBInet defects had been found from March 2008 through July 2009, with the number of new defects identified during this time generally increasing faster than the number being fixed — a trend that is not indicative of a system that is maturing and ready for deployment." Had the money spent on SBInet been spent instead on building a wall on the border, it could have covered 73 miles, another GAO report noted. After the project was expanded from the original 28 miles, SBInet covered 53 miles in total.

In January 2011, it was killed entirely. About $1 billion had been spent on the project.

[Wildtree]

The census has also said the amount of illegal immigrants is 10 million for a decade

No, it isn't.
It went gradually up to 14 million, and for some years now it's in decline since the trend has reverted. Less people enter and stay than there are leaving. At the moment the estimate is around 10 million.

credible studies have placed it close to 30 million and growing every year

False.
That number does not refer to people that are in the country illegal, instead it refers to a whole pool of people including offspring and spouses, that are in fact legal.

Its particularly complicated in that if 2 illegals come here and have a kid, the kid is a citizen. That needs to be changed as well to only apply to kids born of a citizen parent

Good luck with that...
Changing an amendment, you know what that requires, right?

Show me where illegal laborers pay SS tax. I never said they pay no tax, I said they dont pay SS tax.

Let's try that.
From the start..
In order to pay SS, you have to have a SSN. And here comes the next kicker.. YOU don't even pay that. At least, normally you don't.
It's your employer who takes it out of your income and he pays it. That's the law. And since you don't have a SSN as illegal immigrant, the money cannot get assigned. It enters the revenue pool as some type of extra income for the government.

These figures are tracked by the govt agencies. And it's about 13 billion dollar a year.
https://news.vice.com/article/unauth...er-last-decade
Article is from 2014.. But not too much has changed since..
Wait, one thing did change. The procedure how to obtain a tax-id number.
Up until 3 years ago it was very simple to obtain a tax id. Fill out a plain kept form, hand it in with the irs and you received your tax id.
With such id in possession, you are able to pay taxes like a employed / business person.
You can also do your taxes like everyone else.
Three years ago the Obama admin made changes to the application process. Unlike in the past, now one has to provide proof of identification.
That's not too big of a deal, but it sure puts a hurdle up for people that are in the country longer and whose legal paperwork has expired.

[Noradin]

Yes, walls help when you can man them, if you cannot then they are useless.
Does Trump plan to put up the same manpower per feet for his border wall that the White House has?

[Nadiru]

Yes, walls help when you can man them, if you cannot then they are useless.
Does Trump plan to put up the same manpower per feet for his border wall that the White House has?

Probably not. Kind of irrelevant though when ICE is getting expanded so they can do their job in sanctuary cities even without the help of LEOs. The wall was only ever just one aspect of Trump's immigration policy.

[Macaquerie]

Walls have always been effective at their true purpose - showing off the wealth and power of the rulers who built them, and lulling the population into a false sense of security thinking that a pile of rocks will actually keep them safe. When it comes to actually keeping foreigners out they are pretty much useless, because though it might take thousands upon thousands of stones to build a wall, it only takes one to knock it down.

[Noradin]

Probably not. Kind of irrelevant though when ICE is getting expanded so they can do their job in sanctuary cities even without the help of LEOs. The wall was only ever just one aspect of Trump's immigration policy.

So would you say it is an aspect you expect to work given that you do not expect it to be manned accordingly?
If no, wouldn't you agree he should have dropped that part of the "policy" and spent some time explaining some of the rest of it?

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Walls have always been effective at their true purpose - showing off the wealth and power of the rulers who built them, and lulling the population into a false sense of security thinking that a pile of rocks will actually keep them safe. When it comes to actually keeping foreigners out they are pretty much useless, because though it might take thousands upon thousands of stones to build a wall, it only takes one to knock it down.

That is not really true either.
Walls can be pretty useless as a tool of defense when they are defended accordingly.
Walls of this size however ususally fail due to lack of ressources to make use of them after they have been erected.

The problem with walls is that they are passive and do nothing but cost time to pass.

[Nakotsu]

One wonders if it can get any better then this when it comes to the irony.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/politi...per/index.html

White House jumper on grounds for 15 minutes before caught, Secret Service source says


https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...712704?lang=en

Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump

For those that don’t think a wall (fence) works, why don’t they suggest taking down the fence around the White House? Foolish people!



http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...e-fence-taller

Donald J. Trump - about 11 months ago

President Obama understands that you build strong, tall, beautiful walls to keep people out who don't belong. People who get permission can enter the White House LEGALLY!

p.s yes i am obsessed

Whats that you build wall... Thats ok We have shovel and build underground tunnel.
Whats that your upset we bypassed your wall. Thats ok were not.

[Morrigenn]

The professional victims who bitch about things like the war on christmas and white genocide would have voted republican even if a literal turd sandwich ran on the ticket.

Yah, exactly. So that's what ran, and got elected.