7.2 Enhancement Feedback Posts

[wordup]

Hey guys, it's been a while. Myself and a few of the other Enhancement TCers/Discord have put together two posts (one EU, one US) that contain two Google Docs related to Enhancements issues in the current patch cycle.

I'd like to bring them here if only to get them more attention and hopefully to get some more voices regarding what they do and do not like. The posts are linked below:

EU Thread: Thread Link!
US Thread: Thread Link!

And the docs themselves:

Gearing Issues: Doc Link!
Mechanical Issues: Doc Link!

Thanks to anyone who reads or adds to the discussion, obviously we didn't strike while the iron is hot for 7.2 which is our failing and sorry about that, but anyone who can help contribute to the discussion is massively appreciated.

[Phaty]

i cant wrap my head around the t20 set bonuses. when i look at it, it seems they designed it thinking that the t19 2p is baseline.

[Static]

Wordup,

Thank you very much for what you, as well as others, are doing. I linked both threads to every developer's Twitter account. I even asked Josh (Lore) to read it and pass it to them yesterday. I'm literally refreshing both threads every 30 minutes, hoping to see a blue reply.

To the other fellow Shaman players: Please do the same. Keep asking them on Twitter and/or other social media about both threads.

Again, Wordup, Rusahh and others.. thank you for your time and effort.

[Yunyuns]

Thanks for sharing it here.

[Lionor]

Thanks for the tremendous effort that has gone into this summary of our current problems! Much appreciated.

Replied and upvoted on the EU thread!

[Shauren]

I've read the mechanical issues document and I couldn't help but think that because you put so much emphasis on maelstrom being irrelevant (its mentioned almost everywhere) and knowing blizzards way of making changes from experience, it could get overnerfed so hard that it could possibly create yet another super slow spec where you spend most of the time waiting for resources

[Bellante_mazrigos]

A lot of work went into this, and that's cool to see.

Not to be an ass, but I would suggest that you simply make it shorter. It is very dense, and the points can feel a bit convoluted. Not sure how much blizzard reads details like this, but tbh, I don't trust them to take this seriously enough to read that much dense text.

A simpler "situation - problem - solution" for each would help greatly.

Not meaning to shoot at your efforts, it's awesome, it's just communication-wise hard to swallow

[MakeMeLaugh]

Amazing feedback and I hope they actually read all this and do something. But, let's be real here, after playing for several years, we all know 99% of all that is written is going to be ignored and nothing is going to actually happen.

For example, out of all the feedback before 7.1.5, the only thing they are adding which I saw as a suggestion was flametongue increasing the damage of the next lava lash. While I'm happy for it, it's disappointing that only that made it and a bit too late. Also, I really don't look forward to the classic "don't worry, we will make changes for the next expansion" that they always say.

[Toisha]

First, thank you to everyone that put the time and effort into these wonderfully crafted documents.

I'm not going to call myself an enhance shaman theory crafter in any manner, but would it be too strong to combine flametongue and frostbrand into one enchant with no requirement to cast 2 spells?

[Shauren]

A lot of work went into this, and that's cool to see.

Not to be an ass, but I would suggest that you simply make it shorter. It is very dense, and the points can feel a bit convoluted. Not sure how much blizzard reads details like this, but tbh, I don't trust them to take this seriously enough to read that much dense text.

A simpler "situation - problem - solution" for each would help greatly.

Not meaning to shoot at your efforts, it's awesome, it's just communication-wise hard to swallow

But what you are proposing is exactly what blizzard said is not valuable feedback (the problem/solution form)

[Bellante_mazrigos]

But what you are proposing is exactly what blizzard said is not valuable feedback (the problem/solution form)

Everything in the feedback documents are proposed solutions, just not exact solutions. I only mean the form of communication, the content would be the same.

[Gunwolf]

And the docs themselves:

Gearing Issues: Doc Link!
Mechanical Issues: Doc Link!

Thanks to anyone who reads or adds to the discussion, obviously we didn't strike while the iron is hot for 7.2 which is our failing and sorry about that, but anyone who can help contribute to the discussion is massively appreciated.

Awesome post. You guys really did a good job going over alot of the issues with the spec. I think overall Enhance is good, feels fun to play and does decent damage... higher single target but lower aoe, but perhaps that is by design. There are certainly issues and things that can be improved on tho.

Few things I wanted to highlight that I feel are important.

L100 talents

I think its a shame that Landslide is always the default. Would like to see some buffs to the other talents.

+Ascendance - Finding a way to make SS use more consistent is important here. My suggesition is to trigger SB procs. Baseline you would get SB proc after Ascendance, then again at 6 and 12 sec. This would give you 2 SS's x 3 SB's = 6 SS's total. If you have Tempest, SB at start and again at 8 sec, so 3 SS's x 2 SB's = 6 SS's total also. Makes it easy to balance and more reliable as a cooldown. Adding an aoe component would be good too, like our LL will do cleave damage (sorta like how Ele's chain lightning becomes lava beam) which could make this more flexible in either single target or aoe/cleave situations. Also... for flavor... bring back the old Stormblast animation!! lol

+Earthen Spike - I think the suggestion to replace this with Elem Blast is a bad one. We don't really need that and it seems Blizz wants Elem Blast to be for elemental only since they focus more on spells. It would help with frost damage, but there are better options for that. I think Earthen Spike is fine, it has uses in PVP and can be good for bursting on target switches.... it just needs some numbers adjustment. I think the range should be doubled too, atleast 20yds to make it a bit more useful and maybe better synergy with stuff like overcharged LB's.


Lack of Frost Damage Abilities

This is a problem. Really, both Enhance and Elemental both have only one baseline frost spell... frostbrand or frost shock, and these are utility spells used to snare and not part of a dps rotation. Only with talents like Hailstorm or Icefury do they become useful for dps. Elem has Elem blast too as another source of frost, but Enhance has nothing else. An actual baseline frost ability that we could use would be great, but there are other simpler solutions too....

Changing spell school for existing spells - This is the simplest solution. Some examples:

-Fury of Air, could easily be frost dmg instead of nature or a mix of both frost and nature. Visually could stay the same and still fit with the whole theme.

-Earthen Spike could be Frozen Spike (damn mages taking Glacial Spike name).... could be frost based theme (or again frost+nature mix), could add frost dmg to the buff it provides, and maybe even a snare component.

-Sundering could be renamed "Avalance", and be based on Frost school with the same knockback effect. This is physical damage... but perhaps add just a small amount of frost damage to it, like 10% dmg as frost or a dot component. Fits thematically since avalanches knock shit around too.


This would help diversify our abilities to have more sources of frost damage and make it easier to proc the legendary effect of the ring. I would also say that they should just redesign the legendaries to not require frost damage.... do something totally different. Things get clunky when you try to design a legendary to work for both Enhance and elemental since they have diff abilties plus diff playstyles. The bracers (I think its the bracers, that require frostbrand) should def be redesigned because it forces you to use Hailstorm for PVE.... and if not then its really only useful for PVP.

On a side note, I had an idea for a new ability like a Frost based burst cleave attack... sorta like DK's Frostscythe. Maybe "Frost Slash". It could be a base ability for Enhance on like a 30 sec CD with high maelstrom cost, but if you hit 3+ targets with Crash Lightning twice then it would reduce the CD or cost and maybe also increase the damage it does. This way it would be used sparingly, but for actual cleave/aoe situations much easier to use (kinda like how earthquake is easier to setup when u can get a couple chain lightnings off).... while also being another frost ability in our toolkit, and also help increase our aoe/cleave damage which is our weakpoint. This isn't something that could easily be added tho, so maybe for the next patch.



Stormbringer

This can be problematic. I like the 4set and how it makes LL more useful and feeds back into SS. I like the OP's idea of adding a talent to help proc Stormbringer as an alternative on the Tempest tier. If you think about it, our stormbringer is like Elemental's Lava Surge... and Tempest is like Ele's Echo of Elements.... so it makes sense for us to get a talent like Elem Fusion to boost the proc chance of SB. Replacing Emp Stormlash would be a good choice since that is a pretty boring talent anyways.


I think it would be cool to have some dual synergy with SS and LL. Similar to how LL helps proc SB for more SS's, it would be cool if SS could buff our LL too. Like say everytime we use SS we get a stacking buff "Lavastrike", and after 5 stacks of this buff our next LL does alot more damage. This would make it so not only does LL help SS, but SS also helps LL. We could even store this buff and unleash it at certain moments, like if we have to switch to a new target like eyes we can hold off a few sec on LL (that has the 5stack lavastrike buff) and then use LL after we switch for quick burst.

I do think the overemphasis on SS may lead to problems in the future if we are basically ignoring everything for SS and it does a huge bulk of our damage. Not sure how to fix this tho... and for the time being it works, we do good DPS with it even if it is rather boring but atleast its not broken.

A lot of work went into this, and that's cool to see.

Not to be an ass, but I would suggest that you simply make it shorter. It is very dense, and the points can feel a bit convoluted. Not sure how much blizzard reads details like this, but tbh, I don't trust them to take this seriously enough to read that much dense text.

A simpler "situation - problem - solution" for each would help greatly.

Not meaning to shoot at your efforts, it's awesome, it's just communication-wise hard to swallow

I would have to agree here.... may be beneficial to summarize the most important points in the main post as a googledoc link requires more reading and with the amount of info the devs might get lazy and not read it. Have the most important stuff bulletpointed and still have the link if they are interested in reading the details. Blizz prob sees lots of long posts and can't always distinguish the good ones from the bad ones (and this is a GREAT post btw). Going over every single issue may be overwhelming too.... Enhance is still pretty good overall, so may be better to just focus on a few of the key issues that really need some changes and can be fixed with simple solutions.

I've read the mechanical issues document and I couldn't help but think that because you put so much emphasis on maelstrom being irrelevant (its mentioned almost everywhere) and knowing blizzards way of making changes from experience, it could get overnerfed so hard that it could possibly create yet another super slow spec where you spend most of the time waiting for resources

I gotta agree here too.... I really don't want to care about Maelstrom. We didn't have to juggle a resource before, being primarily CD based, and right now with the current spec and playstyle it is essentially the same with stuff more around procs and abiltiies then our resource. The fact is that if you want a more involved rotation, you can always spec for stuff like overcharge or fury of air which puts more emphasis on maelstrom management.... but if u just want something more simple and straightforward then the BF/Tempest build will allow you to play that way. This way BF gives u plenty of MS to use, and LL is simply a maelstrom dump and u only have to think about it when u start to have too much maelstrom.

[tarakan]

For bracer - need split bonus for frost and fire buff
Next - Need get back 5% inf rock fist ,and rework CL mechanics - need deal % damage from SS and LL on 2 or more target,then be more effectiv in aoe ,and CL hit deal damage = numbers of target - hit 2,they take 2x damage,hit 5,every take 5x damage , and then be fari - CL have crap damage ,and they (blizz) can rework talant CL like aoe dot deal damage = aoe damage when we hit with CL.
Sorry for bad EN)

[Yunyuns]

For bracer - need split bonus for frost and fire buff
Next - Need get back 5% inf rock fist ,and rework CL mechanics - need deal % damage from SS and LL on 2 or more target,then be more effectiv in aoe ,and CL hit deal damage = numbers of target - hit 2,they take 2x damage,hit 5,every take 5x damage , and then be fari - CL have crap damage ,and they (blizz) can rework talant CL like aoe dot deal damage = aoe damage when we hit with CL.
Sorry for bad EN)

That's not only bad english... I just can't figure out in which language in the world it could make any sense, you really need to calm down your mind and try again.

[Huanak]

Warning to everyone.

Please check out LL damage per maelstrom cost vs Stormstrike WITHOUT T19 2P.

Then add 50% damage from legendary bracer, 4/4 LL trait + new 7.2 LL trait and stack mastery.

Now the question is:
Can we spam LL all day without touch SS?(without t19 2p)

if the answer is yes then what do T20 set do for this LL spam build?

- - - Updated - - -

I think enh have 2 major problem:

1, stormbringer pro is too powerfully when it combine with tempest and windstrike. Mean if you are lucky to get it pro, it will chain pro itself for a long time. This is bad because too much RNG.

2, enh need better burst for pull. Something like 3minute cooldown cause every hit trigger Stormbringer would be nice.

For Problem 1, tempest need to remove/change to "off hand attack can also trigger Stormbringer". and windstrike need to lower haste to ~10% but last 10s(similar to BTI trinket). These change should make enh danage less depend on RNG and weaken whole stormbringer system.

[Yatsue]

Post this in class development. I see blizzard responding to those more than ptr forum.

[Deleted]

So it looks like we've gotten a nugget of public feedback for 7.2.5 changes.

Thanks for all the feedback. There are a lot of issues being discussed here, but a few stand out as core rotational problems we'd like to address. There's not a specific final plan yet, so be warned there may be works in progress in upcoming PTR builds.

1) Boulderfist. During 7.1.5 iteration, we agreed with a lot of feedback that Boulderfist gave the most fun version of the basic rotation (as opposed to the spammable Rockbiter, or the slower Boulderfist we tried for a time on 7.1.5 PTR). Furthermore, a lot of the talent balancing and related issues on the spec are caused by flipping between the GCD-filled Rockbiter rotation and the charge-driven Boulderfist rotation.

We are planning to make Boulderfist baseline (possibly with the name Rockbiter). The choice would likely be to take a passive talent on L15 that leaves the gameplay identical to using Boulderfist now, or use Windsong/Hot Hand but still have a generator with a 6s recharge time.

2) Tempest and Stormbringer. Tempest has been a bit of a thorn in the side of Enhancement pacing throughout this expansion. A proc that has you press a major spender twice is already at risk of having that feast-or-famine feel. The talent making you press Stormstrike three times in order to get it back on cooldown is an even bigger culprit. At every passing moment, you either don't get a proc, or you do get one and suddenly have to spend 3 GCDs and 80 Maelstrom to deal with it (not to mention that Stormstrike has a reasonable chance of proccing Stormbringer yet again, especially as mastery increases).

We're deciding how much of this we can or should unwind in a patch, but redesigning Tempest may be a somewhat surgical way to get at this problem. Namely, the problem of the button priority and resource usage being overrun by frequent (but not predictable) endless chain Stormstrikes. We tend not to like totally reworking popular talents, but Tempest has no good way to gradually tune it down. And in any case, amplifying the difference caused by getting vs. not getting Stormbringer procs is a result we want to avoid.

Usual reminder that these two changes will likely have a significant impact on DPS tuning, that we'll evaluate when we decide the details of the designs.

Source.

[Trollfat]

It seems they're still figuring enhancement out, which is why no patch notes yet.

[Pundit]

Please just add Ice spikes to Unleash Doom...it's not really like the Fire and Nature ones do anything special. If you get even one per 8 seconds you get to keep the Twisting Nether buff active almost all the time.

[Gunwolf]

So it looks like we've gotten a nugget of public feedback for 7.2.5 changes.

Thanks for all the feedback. There are a lot of issues being discussed here, but a few stand out as core rotational problems we'd like to address. There's not a specific final plan yet, so be warned there may be works in progress in upcoming PTR builds.

1) Boulderfist. During 7.1.5 iteration, we agreed with a lot of feedback that Boulderfist gave the most fun version of the basic rotation (as opposed to the spammable Rockbiter, or the slower Boulderfist we tried for a time on 7.1.5 PTR). Furthermore, a lot of the talent balancing and related issues on the spec are caused by flipping between the GCD-filled Rockbiter rotation and the charge-driven Boulderfist rotation.

We are planning to make Boulderfist baseline (possibly with the name Rockbiter). The choice would likely be to take a passive talent on L15 that leaves the gameplay identical to using Boulderfist now, or use Windsong/Hot Hand but still have a generator with a 6s recharge time.

2) Tempest and Stormbringer. Tempest has been a bit of a thorn in the side of Enhancement pacing throughout this expansion. A proc that has you press a major spender twice is already at risk of having that feast-or-famine feel. The talent making you press Stormstrike three times in order to get it back on cooldown is an even bigger culprit. At every passing moment, you either don't get a proc, or you do get one and suddenly have to spend 3 GCDs and 80 Maelstrom to deal with it (not to mention that Stormstrike has a reasonable chance of proccing Stormbringer yet again, especially as mastery increases).

We're deciding how much of this we can or should unwind in a patch, but redesigning Tempest may be a somewhat surgical way to get at this problem. Namely, the problem of the button priority and resource usage being overrun by frequent (but not predictable) endless chain Stormstrikes. We tend not to like totally reworking popular talents, but Tempest has no good way to gradually tune it down. And in any case, amplifying the difference caused by getting vs. not getting Stormbringer procs is a result we want to avoid.

Usual reminder that these two changes will likely have a significant impact on DPS tuning, that we'll evaluate when we decide the details of the designs.

Source.

Well I am glad that they gave a response, but kinda worried about what they got out of it.

I'm not sure Tempest is really that big of a problem. Even Stormbringer... not sure why people complain so much about it, it procs pretty frequently esp with the 4set bonus and wind strike relics, and then with aoe u have CL added so again more procs. There is always something to press... u gotta BF often to keep buff up or get MS, lots of SB/SS procs, FT imbue and LL dump. I often run into situations where SB procs but I can't use all the charges cause I may need to refresh imbues or something. SS alone does like 30-40% of our overall damage which is alot, and if it proc'd anymore then charges would prob get wasted or we would spend the whole fight just spamming SS. With Tempest u do get that spammy feeling even more, which is fun because it does great damage but also not fun cause it doesn't add much diversity. Also, the other talents on that tier aren't that great either.... OC does good damage, but not as much synergy with our abilities so more niche uses like a less melee friendly fight or PVP, and emp stormlash is just garbage, so picking Tempest isn't that big of a deal. As far as I'm concerned, Tempest works for now so don't really see any reason to change it.

I was hoping they would address the last tier talents.... making Ascendance better and more reliable, like set SB procs, and some small buffs to Earthen Spike like longer range and bit more damage. Give us some more diversity in the last tier so we can have some more diverse specs like Elem has. Its cool that we have the HH/HS build to compete with BF/Tempest, but some of the viability of that build depends on the bracers and ring.... but I like that it uses more variety of spells and not just SS spam. Then there is the T20 set bonuses, which just seem real bad to me and I'm still hoping they change it.

Also, more frost spells. As I mentioned in my post above, they can very easily change the spell schools of existing talents like Fury of Air, Sundering, and few others to do frost damage. Adding an actual base frost ability, like a burst cleave attack, would give us a frost spell without talents plus help us do better aoe damage which we lack.

And as for our current damage situation..... playstyle for the most part seems just fine to me, all we really need short term is a damage buff... something like +8% dmg would bring us up to midpack.