Is Socialism inevitable?

[Wells]

On 'killing rural communities', I honestly don't see it happening. I don't know about anyone else, but I prefer having space to roam. If I'm living in a city, it's not because I prefer the city life; it's because I need to, for work.

Would you still prefer it when the government isn't subsidizing it so much?

[Elegiac]

On 'killing rural communities', I honestly don't see it happening. I don't know about anyone else, but I prefer having space to roam. If I'm living in a city, it's not because I prefer the city life; it's because I need to, for work.

All the while totally ignoring the social and environmental costs your 'roaming' incurs on the rest of us.

We, the urban dwellers, are paying for you to futz around in Hicksville, Wyoming.

[Nadiru]

Not sure how you think growing the food in the city itself somehow lets you distribute the same amount in smaller vehicles. No matter where you grow it you have to distribute comparable amounts to food stores. Having that movement occur between the suburb and the stores is easier than entirely intra-urban

We don't need the same amount as the current system to be distributed in the new system. Grocery stores' produce sections are very lossy because the produce has to travel days along the logistics chain. With a local source, a small grocery store can get away with one or two van loads per day. The only reason you might place food production in the suburb rather than hyper-local is if your vertical farms were each specializing in one kind of crop. If that's your perception of vertical farming, though, you should discard it: Vertical farms can grow different crops on different floors, divide or even subdivide floor production based on local consumption patterns.

[Elegiac]

Would you still prefer it when the government isn't subsidizing it so much?

Amazing how much less attractive rural living becomes when the government isn't subsidising telecommunication coverage let alone electrification.

[Wells]

Amazing how much less attractive rural living becomes when the government isn't subsidising telecommunication coverage let alone electrification.

And honestly I'm not even sure I'd want them to stop. Urbanization is occurring all on its own. I'd rather we continue to maintain a modern standard of living in rural areas while encouraging them to move with carrots, rather than sticks.

[Elegiac]

And honestly I'm not even sure I'd want them to stop. Urbanization is occurring all on its own. I'd rather we continue to maintain a modern standard of living in rural areas while encouraging them to move with carrots, rather than sticks.

If they keep insisting on voting for socially regressive politicians and legislation then I have no issue with cutting off the gravy train and leaving them to rot in squalor.

[Darth Vowrawn]

Please point out where this has happened in the West.

Oh, I don't know, Russia right after Lenin took over and tried a "pure" Socialist economy, any "Eastern Bloc" country, North Korea in comparison to South Korea, Jamestown and Plymouth in the American colonies where they ended up having to boil boot leather for food and spit roast rats...

You know, the usual starving hellholes of collective success and altruistic reason.

[Elegiac]

Oh, I don't know, Russia right after Lenin took over and tried a "pure" Socialist economy, any "Eastern Bloc" country, North Korea in comparison to South Korea, Jamestown and Plymouth in the American colonies...

You know, the usual starving hellholes of collective success and altruistic reason.

Russia and North Korea are 'the West' now.

The Eastern bloc countries being shitty was and is a function of them being autocratic.

[Moratori]

Oh, I don't know, Russia right after Lenin took over and tried a "pure" Socialist economy, any "Eastern Bloc" country, North Korea in comparison to South Korea, Jamestown and Plymouth in the American colonies...

You know, the usual starving hellholes of collective success and altruistic reason.

Since when is russia and korea in the west?

[Wells]

We don't need the same amount as the current system to be distributed in the new system. Grocery stores' produce sections are very lossy because the produce has to travel days along the logistics chain. With a local source, a small grocery store can get away with one or two van loads per day. The only reason you might place food production in the suburb rather than hyper-local is if your vertical farms were each specializing in one kind of crop. If that's your perception of vertical farming, though, you should discard it: Vertical farms can grow different crops on different floors, divide or even subdivide floor production based on local consumption patterns.

Both our theories area already writing out almost all the distribution time, so that point is moot. I just don't see how the logistics of entirely intra-urban distribution is more efficient than production an hour or two outside of town.

Look at it this way, I find it vastly easier to get from Everett to the Safeway in Ballard than to get across downtown Seattle. Maybe that's not your experience?

[Elegiac]

Both our theories area already writing out almost all the distribution time, so that point is moot. I just don't see how the logistics of entirely intra-urban distribution is more efficient than production an hour or two outside of town.

Look at it this way, I find it vastly easier to get from Everett to the Safeway in Ballard than to get across downtown Seattle. Maybe that's not your experience?

Still easier to get across downtown Seattle than from Bellevue to Renton. :P

[Wells]

Oh, I don't know, Russia right after Lenin took over and tried a "pure" Socialist economy, any "Eastern Bloc" country, North Korea in comparison to South Korea, Jamestown and Plymouth in the American colonies where they ended up having to boil boot leather for food and spit roast rats...

You know, the usual starving hellholes of collective success and altruistic reason.

You're citing 16th century colonies as examples of failures for political philosophies that won't even exist for a couple hundred years.

[LilSaihah]

Would you still prefer it when the government isn't subsidizing it so much?

Probably.

Amazing how much less attractive rural living becomes when the government isn't subsidising telecommunication coverage let alone electrification.

Well, I've already got NBN. If you're worried about paying for our electricity, just keep making solar panels better.

[Wells]

Still easier to get across downtown Seattle than from Bellevue to Renton. :P

That's just good city planning. No one should find it easy to be in Renton.

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Probably.

Well be sure to let us know before your electricity gets cut off.

[Elegiac]

Well, I've already got NBN. If you're worried about paying for our electricity, just keep making solar panels better.

Oh, NBN, you mean that massive socialised telecommunications scheme that the last Labor government introduced which is largely funded off the backs of urban areas in New South Wales and Victoria?

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That's just good city planning. No one should find it easy to be in Renton.

Hey, Renton is slowly gentrifying into a habitable area.

It's also annoying when I need to get to SeaTac or Southcenter.

[Wells]

Oh, NBN, you mean that massive socialised telecommunications scheme that the last Labor government introduced which is largely funded off the backs of urban areas in New South Wales and Victoria?

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Hey, Renton is slowly gentrifying into a habitable area.

I almost took a job in Federal Way once, true story.

Its not just here I'm a masochist.

[Elegiac]

I almost took a job in Federal Way once, true story.

Its not just here I'm a masochist.

One day I need to buy you a beer, dude.

A microbrew at a Bellevue boutique, of course. :P

[Nadiru]

Both our theories area already writing out almost all the distribution time, so that point is moot. I just don't see how the logistics of entirely intra-urban distribution is more efficient than production an hour or two outside of town.

Look at it this way, I find it vastly easier to get from Everett to the Safeway in Ballard than to get across downtown Seattle. Maybe that's not your experience?

Since I have no knowledge of Seattle geography, I can safely say that isn't my experience. And my theory can afford to write down the distribution time to delivery because it's effectively nonexistent in mine: Two vans servicing four stores in a 12 block radius isn't quite a zero-time investment, but it's close, so even if I were using big wheelers to ferry food around the traffic burden is small. Yours on the other hand implies an hour's worth of travel time in the city to complete the route and leave, which puts stress on the entry/exit points of the city, which are already bottlenecks.

[Wells]

One day I need to buy you a beer, dude.

A microbrew at a Bellevue boutique, of course. :P

I'll be in Ballard tomorrow and you'll never even know who I was.

[Deleted]

Socialism is good. I don't know where the hate comes from. It's always people picturing how to cheat the system. But theres ways to make it tighter.