Blizzard have effectively gotten rid of flying

[bufferunderrun]

Interesting. You see no difference between the world in mop and legion. OK I guess.

is there a difference btw how questing hubs have worked since wotlk and now? levelling is on railway since then you finish an hub and get the broadcrumb for the next end of the story, i don't see any change that would be broken by flying beside the time needed to travel btw point A to B

[Deleted]

is there a difference btw how questing hubs have worked since wotlk and now? levelling is on railway since then you finish an hub and get the broadcrumb for the next end of the story, i don't see any change that would be broken by flying beside the time needed to travel btw point A to B

There's obviously much more of a narrative going, plus you can finish the zones and still get the story the way they meant it. Plus not flying allows for some variety in the kind of world quests. I'd much prefer legions way of dealing with dailies than MOP's pick and go.
So do the developers which is another reason why you can't fly yet.

[WowIsDead64]

Tol'Barad and Wintergrasp were no-flying zones because they were PvP though. I don't think you can really compare that as a good implementation of fly/no-fly, since there's no similar implementation that could exist in the broken isles.

Both Wintergrasp and Tol Barad had two modes - PVP and PVE. When there wasn't battle there - you were able to do PVE dailies and do the most PVEish content possible - raid. Also half of Tol Barad - was just no flying PVE zone with dailies. Of course there was some PVP on PVP servers there. But it was just "competitive" pseudo-PVP zone on PVE servers - same, as Tanaan and WQs. I.e. no PVP there on PVE servers, but this zone was still about competition with other players, that I personally consider to be pseudo-PVP crap, only some PVP-oriented players like. And I don't understand, why having dedicated zones for such kind of content - was so bad thing. And why spreading such design to whole world - was so necessary. Because, you know, if you say, that "Tol Barad was PVP zone", then, well, it also means, that whole world in WOD and Legion is intended to be one big PVP zone. And that means PVP-favouritism. Blizzard have stated, that no flying isn't about PVP-favouritism. May be they've lied?

It seems to me that it's just as likely that Blizzard realizes that flying was a poor mechanic to implement in the first place, but because there are so many flying mounts out there (in addition to ones in the shop), they have to let is exist. They are fine with old content being trivialized by flying, because who cares if you can level super fast? But when the actual end-game content comes, they know that flying just isn't good gameplay. You and many others can rightfully disagree with that, but their actions seem consistent with this appraisal. They wait until the content could reasonably be called "old content" and people are getting tired of it, then flip the switch and let you breeze through it.

It's exactly like what they've done with leveling. Over time, leveling is a chore, and no longer "new content" so they are OK trivializing it. Same with flying. They don't implement it until the content is trivial and boring. I like this solution and it's consistent with their design philosophy in general, so I doubt it will change any time soon.

I agree with their logic. But they also make the same big mistake, they've already made with dungeons and raids: they don't take one simple fact into account - different players have different preferences. I simply don't like such kind of content. I don't need flying itself - I need flying to avoid some pseudo-PVP and "exploration" crap, I personally don't like. Forcing me to do it - is the same thing, as forcing me to play on PVP server, i.e. unbearable for me. And their "Don't like it - don't play it" logic - is terrible thing, cuz it usually ends as "Don't like this game - just unsub and don't play it".

[Fabinas]

It seems to me that flying was a failed experiment that Blizzard should have never added to the game, yet now they have 10 years of flying content and mounts that they are locked in. Now they are bending over backwards to limit the amount of flying players can do, and lots of folks aren't happy about that. And that's perfectly understandable. That's the danger of putting in something so game-breaking like flying; if you ever take it out, you will have hell to pay. The same thing would happen if they tried to take out LFR or pet battles or something.

You cannot call flying a "failed experiment". Flying was introduced in TBC as a major feature, was expanded by adding content that needed flying in WotLK, propped up as a feature in the old world with the Cata revamp and was used extensively in MoP (anyone ever found a way to reach the pvp vendors on the wall without flying?). All this time, Flying mounts were sold in Blizz Shop and gave them huge chunks of money. So, no, flying was a PROMINENT feature of the game for a very very long time to be called an experiment. It was the NORM, not the exception.

We can actually call the "non-flying" an experiment. Why? Because, excluding Vanilla (because flying didn't exist then, at all), Blizzard has experimented with smaller, patch added no flying zones since Cata. The firelands patch quest zone (can't remember the name now), Isle of Thunder, of Giants and Timeless in MoP and then the WoD fiasco with the constant backtracking on when and how flying will be implemented, the announcement of no-flight in current content (where they thought the results of their experiment were going to be accepted by their shitty PR logic) and the emergence of the Pathfinder compromise after the mass unsubs of players over flight (anyone who thinks they changed their minds over forum protests is totally deluded).

So, in all, they are trying to restrict a formerly prominent feature, just because the alternative (which is design content with flight in mind) is too costly and doesn't prolong their easily made ground content.

[Deleted]

You cannot call flying a "failed experiment". Flying was introduced in TBC as a major feature, was expanded by adding content that needed flying in WotLK, propped up as a feature in the old world with the Cata revamp and was used extensively in MoP (anyone ever found a way to reach the pvp vendors on the wall without flying?). All this time, Flying mounts were sold in Blizz Shop and gave them huge chunks of money. So, no, flying was a PROMINENT feature of the game for a very very long time to be called an experiment. It was the NORM, not the exception.

We can actually call the "non-flying" an experiment. Why? Because, excluding Vanilla (because flying didn't exist then, at all), Blizzard has experimented with smaller, patch added no flying zones since Cata. The firelands patch quest zone (can't remember the name now), Isle of Thunder, of Giants and Timeless in MoP and then the WoD fiasco with the constant backtracking on when and how flying will be implemented, the announcement of no-flight in current content (where they thought the results of their experiment were going to be accepted by their shitty PR logic) and the emergence of the Pathfinder compromise after the mass unsubs of players over flight (anyone who thinks they changed their minds over forum protests is totally deluded).

So, in all, they are trying to restrict a formerly prominent feature, just because the alternative (which is design content with flight in mind) is too costly and doesn't prolong their easily made ground content.

Also because the alternative, content to designed for flying mounts, leads to linear questing and huge zones with large empty areas which is bad design. Travelling in legion works fine.

[Deleted]

I thought pro-flyers always wanted to be so immersed or whatever. Guess what, in the real world there is more free space than space covered by animals.

[bufferunderrun]

There's obviously much more of a narrative going, plus you can finish the zones and still get the story the way they meant it. Plus not flying allows for some variety in the kind of world quests. I'd much prefer legions way of dealing with dailies than MOP's pick and go.
So do the developers which is another reason why you can't fly yet.

narrative isn't influenced by flying and you had to complete the story always that way due to how chains work you never had the choice of skipping hubs with or without flying.
What variety? the only difference btw wq and dailies is how you activate them and the only difference btw doing so walking and flying is how many you can do in the same timeframe.
No flying is only an escamotage to let them last longer the actual structure has not changed since woltk

[WowIsDead64]

I don't know. Simple logic. Just imagine, that tomorrow Blizzard would say, that the way, game is being played on PVP servers - is intended way to play the game. So they would remove PVE servers completely or would lock ability to unflag yourself behind some achievement, that would be obtainable only somewhere in the middle of xpack and only after "properly experiencing all PVP content". What would happen then?

Yeah, technically I still would be able to play such game. But would I want to play it? I guess, no.

And if you're PVEer, how would you feel then? Wouldn't you feel, that Blizzard have decided, what is better for you, on behalf of you?

P.S. If you're PVPer - just imagine opposite situation.

[Deleted]

narrative isn't influenced by flying and you had to complete the story always that way due to how chains work you never had the choice of skipping hubs with or without flying.
What variety? the only difference btw wq and dailies is how you activate them and the only difference btw doing so walking and flying is how many you can do in the same timeframe.
No flying is only an escamotage to let them last longer the actual structure has not changed since woltk

Yeah... Yeah no. Narrative is obviously influenced by the ability to skip terrain at random. Like... as we were just discussing, hellfire peninsula, or to make a much more recent analogy, all of suramar.
Sure you can resort only to linear questing. Like in cata. Hopefully that idea never crosses the developers' minds ever again. They already destroyed the old world thank you.

What variety? Any quest that includes any sort of verticality adds an extra layer to the package.
That's pretty much all there is. Getting there becomes part of the quest when flying isn't involved. And that's what Blizzard wants.

Unless the payback is an horrendously clunky travelling system, I'm perfectly ok with that. Travelling around legion is fast and efficient so I'm happy.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know. Simple logic. Just imagine, that tomorrow Blizzard would say, that the way, game is being played on PVP servers - is intended way to play the game. So they would remove PVE servers completely or would lock ability to unflag yourself behind some achievement, that would be obtainable only somewhere in the middle of xpack and only after "properly experiencing all PVP content". What would happen then?

Yeah, technically I still would be able to play such game. But would I want to play it? I guess, no.

And if you're PVEer, how would you feel then? Wouldn't you feel, that Blizzard have decided, what is better for you, on behalf of you?

P.S. If you're PVPer - just imagine opposite situation.

Of course... just make a comparison between a way of travelling around and removing pvp/pve.
That will surely strengthen your argument.

[WowIsDead64]

Of course... just make a comparison between a way of travelling around and removing pvp/pve.
That will surely strengthen your argument.

No, I make comparison between two different playstyles, approaches to completion of content and even philosophies. Because flying isn't only about travelling - it's also about PLAYSTYLE, APPROACH TO COMPLETION OF CONTENT AND PHILOSOPHY.

PVE and PVP players have different priorities. When PVE player comes into outdoor - he wants to complete PVE goals in a first place, such as quests. For PVP player - quests aren't goal. While he comes into outdoor with intention to do them, at the same time he seeks for conflict with other players and should be ready for such conflict at any moment. If accidental PVP starts to happen - PVE player tends to avoid it, while PVP player do everything to support it.

So. If all of a sudden game developer decides to cater to one playstyle and alienate another - then he clearly shows, that he no longer treats second group of players as valuable customers.

[Deleted]

No, I make comparison between two different playstyles, approaches to completion of content and even philosophies. Because flying isn't only about travelling - it's also about PLAYSTYLE, APPROACH TO COMPLETION OF CONTENT AND PHILOSOPHY.

PVE and PVP players have different priorities. When PVE player comes into outdoor - he wants to complete PVE goals in a first place, such as quests. For PVP player - quests aren't goal. While he comes into outdoor with intention to do them, at the same time he seeks for conflict with other players and should be ready for such conflict at any moment. If accidental PVP starts to happen - PVE player tends to avoid it, while PVP player do everything to support it.

So. If all of a sudden game developer decides to cater to one playstyle and alienate another - then he clearly shows, that he no longer treats second group of players as valuable customers.

No it's not.
Flying is how you get from A to B.
It's neither A nor B.

Flying is a philosophy huh... hold on let me write that down.

[Saul Goodman]

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[WowIsDead64]

No it's not.
Flying is how you get from A to B.
It's neither A nor B.

Flying is a philosophy huh... hold on let me write that down.

PVE servers allow me to avoid PVP, that isn't only unnecessary for me - I hate it. Flying allows me to avoid some other things, that also aren't only unnecessary for me, but I also hate them. So, what's the difference?

[Deleted]

PVE servers allow me to avoid PVP, that isn't only unnecessary for me - I hate it. Flying allows me to avoid some other things, that also aren't only unnecessary for me, but I also hate them. So, what's the difference?

You're comparing content to a travelling system.
Once again: Flying is a way to get you from A to B. PVP and PVE are A or B.
You can't compare removing flying with removing pvp/pve.
Or better, you can, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

[Morrigenn]

I'm probably just old school, but on this (insert that which shall not be named), mounts are unavailable until 40, no flying until 70, and Azeroth has no flight. Needless to say, the world before Cataclysm was just fine. I think if more people got back to the basics of WoW, and spent less time sweating the small shit, there would be fewer threads and more subs. Sadly, the only thing to change in 11 years is the sheer number of entitled individuals playing this game.

Amen brother..... just amen.

[VooDsXo]

That's not an argument in its favour.

If it's easy to get around anyway, that would be an argument for allowing flying. Because then being able to fly does not impact anyway in any negative way, and is only a positive, because the people who like flying would get to fly.

except the detail in the environment, pvp bombings, and so on.

[WowIsDead64]

You're comparing content to a travelling system.
Once again: Flying is a way to get you from A to B. PVP and PVE are A or B.
You can't compare removing flying with removing pvp/pve.
Or better, you can, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

If flying would be only about getting from A to B - I wouldn't complain. And Blizzard wouldn't even care about it or remove it in this case. Flying is more like stealth - it changes the way, you approach to completion of content. Have you ever played Rogue or Feral Druid? See, how playstyle is changed, when you have stealth?

[Deleted]

If flying would be only about getting from A to B - I wouldn't complain. And Blizzard wouldn't even care about it or remove it in this case. Flying is more like stealth - it changes the way, you approach to completion of content. Have you ever played Rogue or Feral Druid? See, how playstyle is changed, when you have stealth?

I play a rogue. Yes I know how stealth affects my class. That's not a travelling system though. It's game mechanics. Stealth is something to give you advantage in combat.
Flying is nothing like stealth. Flying is a way to travel. Like walking or running. Is walking "content"?

[WowIsDead64]

Is walking "content"?

Yes, if game developer intentionally puts artificial obstacles on you way. If "walking" wouldn't be considered "content" - Blizzard wouldn't force it.

[Deleted]

Yes, if game developer intentionally puts artificial obstacles on you way. If "walking" wouldn't be considered "content" - Blizzard wouldn't force it.

Walking.... is content...
So you log in and walk/run/fly for 3 hours without doing anything and you leave with a feeling of having improved your character?
This isn't morrowind. We don't level athleticism.