Is Socialism inevitable?

[Spectral]

You are mixing your axes there ... authoritarian is UP, capitalism is RIGHT ..... fascism is a mix of the extremes of both.

I don't think I'm mixing anything up - quite the opposite, I'm saying that fascism requires multiple dimensions to be "fascism" rather than just anarcho-capitalism or some other economically libertine philosophy. Without the authoritarianism and nationalism, it just ain't fascism.

[Deleted]

After the nukes go off the survivors will form collectives in which they share the meat from thier other human captives equally.

[Wildberry]

I don't think I'm mixing anything up - quite the opposite, I'm saying that fascism requires multiple dimensions to be "fascism" rather than just anarcho-capitalism or some other economically libertine philosophy. Without the authoritarianism and nationalism, it just ain't fascism.

You're being really generous there, given the economic policies and proposals of leading Fascist thinkers. He seems to be under the impression that Fascism is just Pinochet.

[minteK917]

I don't think I'm mixing anything up - quite the opposite, I'm saying that fascism requires multiple dimensions to be "fascism" rather than just anarcho-capitalism or some other economically libertine philosophy. Without the authoritarianism and nationalism, it just ain't fascism.

Anarcho capitalism is directly opposed to authoritarian capitalism.. its like literally anti fascism by default?

[schwarzkopf]

'm saying that fascism requires multiple dimensions to be "fascism"

Of course it .... I've been saying that myself.

Without the authoritarianism and nationalism, it just ain't fascism.

Well - nationalism is just a form of extreme capitalism, and authoritarianism being the UP needed in addition to the RIGHT.

[JohnBrown1917]

in a post-shortage/fully automated society, it'll either be a (democratic) socialist/communist society, or it'll turn into a corporate run dystopia.

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Anarcho capitalism is directly opposed to authoritarian capitalism.. its like literally anti fascism by default?

Anarcho capitalism just means you'll be led by a CEO instead of a PM/president

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Please, lay out how extreme Capitalism, as horrible as it may be, leads to Fascism.

Corporations owning the government.

[minteK917]

in a post-shortage/fully automated society, it'll either be a (democratic) socialist/communist society, or it'll turn into a corporate run dystopia.

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Anarcho capitalism just means you'll be led by a CEO instead of a PM/president

No. It does not. It stands of anarchy capitalism. Anarchy is a total removal of authority were individual sovereignty is the principle. There would be no CEO running anything, as soon as a CEO takes control, its already no longer anarchy. I dont care what gobbles american useless libertarian are telling them. As soon as an authority public or private takes control over personal sovereignty you are no longer in anarchy. A kingdom was not anarchy.

Thats part of why anarchy is stupid and has never existed. We have never existed without an expression of leadership and concentration of power, we never will either.

[Wildberry]

Well - nationalism is just a form of extreme capitalism

...What? No, Nationalism is not extreme capitalism. How in the Hell do you even make that connection?

[Barnabas]

Is Socialism inevitable?

OK if it gets to a point where literally everything can be done by machines and human labour is no longer needed will that spell the end for Capitalism?

Surely Socialism is the end goal of where we are going as a species I mean go and see the civilization on Star Trek The Next Generation where nobody works for capital because machines can produce anything humans need and could ever want so they just work for the sake of bettering themselves.

The days of people working for pieces of paper and numbers on a computer screen must surely be numbered if we get to a point where everything we need can just be manufactured by machines and delivered to us (driverless cars?) or if replication technology ever becomes a thing.

When or where will it get to a point where socialism is the only solution because nobody has jobs cause of automation that makes capitalism viable?

So what makes you think star trek economy is really parecon? I see little evidence of that. It's definitely not communist since you can own property privately. It's not a true post scarcity economy because famines exist in star trek. There is a ruling class. Presidents are elected. It's a capitalist society.

[Bigcountry11782]

Socialism is terrible why would it be inevitable?

[Deleted]

in a post-shortage/fully automated society, it'll either be a (democratic) socialist/communist society, or it'll turn into a corporate run dystopia.

That or you know the work force would change completely with skills centered around maintaining this automated society. Unless the automation's become self aware someone is going to have to give commands etc.

Anarcho capitalism just means you'll be led by a CEO instead of a PM/president

More that Businesses as a group will run things, unless all of them merge into one entity and then what you said would be true.

Corporations owning the government.

You learn something new everyday.......... just because communism = the people(by that i mean a select few) run things doesn't mean the polar opposite is fascism. We are currently living in oligarchy states in the west and we are in no way under fascist dictatorship.

[Barnabas]

Socialism is terrible why would it be inevitable?

Mainly an exploration of the possibility humans will never have to work. I see little evidence to support that in science fiction.

[minteK917]

So what makes you think star trek economy is really parecon? I see little evidence of that. It's definitely not communist since you can own property privately. It's not a true post scarcity economy because famines exist in star trek. There is a ruling class. Presidents are elected. It's a capitalist society.

There is no famines within the federation in star trek, bar when technology stops to work momentarily? Its not exactly socialism either, but its not capitalism either. There is no money. Ruling class has nothing to do with political system, only anarchy has no ruling classes. Star trek is not anarchy. Not owning propriety is only extreme left, socialism does not stop private propriety.

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More that Businesses as a group will run things, unless all of them merge into one entity and then what you said would be true.

Except it would no longer be called anarchy after that point.

[XDurionX]

in a post-shortage/fully automated society, it'll either be a (democratic) socialist/communist society, or it'll turn into a corporate run dystopia.
.

This. Either socialist policies are employed, or there will be violent uprisings eventually. There is no alternative to a growing socialistic influence, or the difference between wealth and poverty will become as big so the poor have no other means than resorting to violence. Capitalism is inherently flawed and self destructive.

[Allybeboba]

Just to be clear, you are using Star Trek: The Next Generation as your basis for deriving the ideal end point of society?

Yes, people actually do believe the stuff that Hollywood produces is real. They really really do.
Some even think that "reality TV" isn't scripted.

[Linkedblade]

Unless you can achieve everlasting peace and there is a system in place so no one individual with weapons can take over then socialism will never be achievable.

[Barnabas]

There is no famines within the federation in star trek, bar when technology stops to work momentarily? Its not exactly socialism either, but its not capitalism either. There is no money. Ruling class has nothing to do with political system, only anarchy has no ruling classes. Star trek is not anarchy. Not owning propriety is only extreme left, socialism does not stop private propriety.

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Except it would no longer be called anarchy after that point.

You can still have a capitalist society and credits is the currency. It works naturally. Bajor had a famine. It shows direct proof that replicators didn't supplant real food.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Bajor

[Linkedblade]

Just to be clear, you are using Star Trek: The Next Generation as your basis for deriving the ideal end point of society?

Using a TV show as a medium for the delivery of ideas is any less significant than other forms?

[minteK917]

Mainly an exploration of the possibility humans will never have to work. I see little evidence to support that in science fiction.

Nothing in socialism make humans stop working, why does it seems only Americans think it means that. Socialism is about the state controlling the means of production. Meaning the government control industries. Those industries still need people to work in them? Your military is a perfect example of that. It means your government and by via your taxes control the industry that would involve training and maintaining military personnel. Instead of hiring private soldiers for money, they are the sole driving force behind that particular industry.

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You can still have a capitalist society and credits is the currency. It works naturally.

But its not what they employ. Credit is still money. You are misunderstanding what utopia star trek tries to come off as. Socialism still requires money as well. Like i said star trek fiction is neither.

[Spectral]

Well - nationalism is just a form of extreme capitalism...

Could you elaborate? I don't see this as being at all true.

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Anarcho capitalism is directly opposed to authoritarian capitalism.. its like literally anti fascism by default?

Yes, agreed - that's what I'm getting at.