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  1. #161
    The ability to get close to mythic geared via other means in the game is why he's not seeing significant leaps in kill times now that things are on farm. This is a fairly new situation for the game to be in, and you probably aren't going to see that change anytime soon in this expansion.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    I never used to understand the resentment people have for Preach.

    Then I realized it IS resentment, not simple hate. They resent how he is one of many people that have successfully monetized his hobby. Not only is his job just sitting and playing WoW, and talking about what he thinks is bad about it and what he thinks the game should do instead, but he has monetized it to such a degree that not only has he's quit his job and made THIS his job, but he's leasing offices and employing people. And hosting his own PreachCon.

    Meanwhile, everyone else goes on forums and complain about the game, and their only reward is maybe someone replies (good or bad. Any reply is acceptable as long as someone acknowledges them). That's it. They bitterly, bitterly resent him.

    That, and the whole "I hate people who clear mythic because I don't" thing. But that's just a default. It's mostly the "I get payed to play and complain about video games" thing. The fact that he makes enough to become not only self-employed but an employer is what sends most people over the vitriolic edge.
    no sure if there is much there to resent - he turned what was supposed to be a hobby into his job burning himself out very strongly

    problem for him even when he is burned out he has no other way to pursuit - its his job and he has to push it further and further

    you hnestly think that a lot of forum posters would like to have such risky job position while having kids ? the more people leave game the less $ he makes from youtube/twitch. and to invest s much into 13 year old game that isnt that popular anymore ? very very risky.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Does someone have to be 10/10M to offer an opinion? I mean coaches that "improve" the worlds best players at golf / soccer / gymnastics aren't as good as the people they coach but nobody questions that they may have valuable insights.

    But come to these forums and its full of internet fuckwads (like you) that don't bother to consider the merit of whats being said but instead look to how many internet monsters the person has killed to determine the worth of his opinion. So when its set out like this, does that sound logical and smart or fucking idiotic to you?

    Infracted
    The first 7 bosses of Mythic are quite easy. Star Augur is the first real challenge and before him Spellblade is the most difficult boss.

    The main point Preach tries to make is that Nighthold is bad because there is no post boss kill progression. Except there is. My guild kills Scorp a hell of a lot faster than the first week. Even Krosus goes down like 40 seconds faster than our first kill. He compares the first Throne of Thunder kills to the fastest Throne of Thunder kills a raid that was current between March to September. So 7 months of raiding. Whereas Nighthold has been out for 3 months now. Not to mention that Nighthold is the final part of the first raid tier whereas ToT was a full raid tier itself and had the huge item upgrades you get when going to a new tier.

    Lei Shen drops gear 26 item levels higher than the Sha of Fear the final boss in the previous tier. While Gul'dan only drops gear that's 15 item levels higher than Helya.

    Obviously you won't see a big difference in gear because we're still in the same tier. Wait until ToS then complain about kill timers not getting faster, but you won't be because they will.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchh View Post
    Wait until ToS then complain about kill timers not getting faster, but you won't be because they will.
    you dont have to wait till it land though - 7.2 will land and half of the idiots compalining now will be flexing their e-pens saying how easy mythic will be after nerfs via new traits.

    discussing this is pointless when huge nerf will land in 2-3 weeks

    and that both preach and asmongold in his last video are desperate tries to monetize on this before it gets nerfed to the ground.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you dont have to wait till it land though - 7.2 will land and half of the idiots compalining now will be flexing their e-pens saying how easy mythic will be after nerfs via new traits.

    discussing this is pointless when huge nerf will land in 2-3 weeks

    and that both preach and asmongold in his last video are desperate tries to monetize on this before it gets nerfed to the ground.
    Weekly power progression via gear nerfing content has worked fine now for a few expansions, why all of a sudden go back to brick wall discrete patch nerfs?

    It used to be that content was tuned for the best guilds in the world to clear by a hair. For everyone else, a progressive increase in item level resulted in a smooth nerf to content on a weekly basis. In NH? Bosses feel just about as difficult now as you first killed them. Same problem in ToV, work on M Helya for weeks without any meaningful power progression during that time.

    Power progression via gear is not just about "epeen" its also about slowly nerfing difficult content to make it accessible for an increasing large crowd of players. This nerf hammer knocking down bricks every few months is how things used to work a long time ago, and it sucked.

  6. #166
    Yes kill times aren't overly changing 'at the moment' however the second half of this tier has us able to continue to progress on AP and weapon progression through both stronger traits and our 4th golds which will 100% affect kill times and be a pretty big nerf to the instance.

  7. #167
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you dont have to wait till it land though - 7.2 will land and half of the idiots compalining now will be flexing their e-pens saying how easy mythic will be after nerfs via new traits.

    discussing this is pointless when huge nerf will land in 2-3 weeks

    and that both preach and asmongold in his last video are desperate tries to monetize on this before it gets nerfed to the ground.
    I meant compare kill times at the start of ToS with kill times on farm, since that raid is more comparable to ToT.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarzog View Post
    Weekly power progression via gear nerfing content has worked fine now for a few expansions, why all of a sudden go back to brick wall discrete patch nerfs?
    because its was never meant as a wall - we are still months from when Tomb will open - its their f... fault for farming close to 54 traits long before NH was open and leaving nothing as gradual power increase over past 2 months

    its pretty obvious what devs wanted only they didnt account for morons farming MoS 1000 times for AP - lets be honest nobody sane would anticipate it - i bet devs never would imagine how many no-lifers famring maw 24/7 woudl there be and how low self control some people have - would you anticipate such autis......c behaviour ?
    thats borderline on what south park shown in their wow episode with boars killing -_-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxZVZgpmI0 this is what comes to my mind anytime someone here tell about farming hundreds of mythic + and how blizzard "forces them"
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-03-19 at 11:06 PM.

  9. #169
    I actually like that fights don't become totally trivial midway through the tier

    I don't really see how this contributes to burnout, either; the tier's still new! Is there anybody who woulda quit raiding if they couldn't kill iron reaver in 30 seconds?

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    I actually like that fights don't become totally trivial midway through the tier

    I don't really see how this contributes to burnout, either; the tier's still new! Is there anybody who woulda quit raiding if they couldn't kill iron reaver in 30 seconds?
    I'm sure plenty of people would quit if it still took them two air phases to kill reaver after two months. Poor example, too - you had a guaranteed upgrade every week in form of legendary ring. So even if things didn't quite work out, they would be just a bit easier next time. No rng involved, you just needed an Archimonde kill. And that was on top of actual upgrades, none of which involved several layers of Titanforged lottery.

    Now imagine your only way of gearing up for HFC was through Mythic dungeons - seeing how they were the only ones who could Titanforge to such extent. What a joy would that be.

  11. #171
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    Sounds like a problem for the 1% once again. I raid heroic, and our kills get faster nearly every week.

  12. #172
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    Now asmongold posted the same that heroic loot equal to mythic loot = whats the point of mythic.

    My opinion:
    Heroic loot, mythic+ loot and everything else outside of mythic raid, should cap out at mythic loot minus 5, so if mythic tier right now is 905-925, heroic tier etc should cap at 900.

    Give an incentive for mythic being the best gear instead of removing titanforge completely. Of course adjust tuning accordingly.

  13. #173
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    Hey look, a Preach Video where he complains that it's Blizzards fault for his lack of Self-control.

    This is new and interesting.

  14. #174
    and I mean, our raid is far from world top 20 but we definitely feel the effects of increasing gear. Spellblade and krosus in particular are far less stressful than they were when we were learning them

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Teri View Post
    Now asmongold posted the same that heroic loot equal to mythic loot = whats the point of mythic.

    My opinion:
    Heroic loot, mythic+ loot and everything else outside of mythic raid, should cap out at mythic loot minus 5, so if mythic tier right now is 905-925, heroic tier etc should cap at 900.

    Give an incentive for mythic being the best gear instead of removing titanforge completely. Of course adjust tuning accordingly.
    I used to think Asmongold is a typical youtube clown, but I actually agree with him this time, you can clear HC in 2 hours and get few titanforged pieces, so its per hour efficiency is above mythic, since a fresh mythic boss in the 4-7 range (not first 3 and not last 3) is about 2-3 full evenings of progress wiping and then finally a kill which might award a pile of rubbish (like 3 plate chestpieces no one wants). The last 3 take even longer, and are tuned to the point you can't really "outgear" them.

    Same thing was going on with people spamming / boosting "7-9 keys" when 12 was the top because per hour efficiency was higher than actually struggling in a 12 and not 3-chesting it. Since nowadays you can even 3-chest a 15 without much hassle, can't make this comparison, but just wait for 7.2 "m+ rebalancing" and 10 being the new cap, and watch people go back to "7-9 spam" so they don't have to deal with an extra affix upping the clear times.

    Titanforging was supposed to be "a rare bonus for helping out a friend in lower difficulty" (Blizzard's words), what it became is a mass-spam of low to medium difficulty content to brute force the "rarity" of titanforge with sheer amount of drops. The content in Legion moved from quality to quantity, that obviously contributes to burn out, world top guilds calling it quits, mid tier mythic raiders stopping due to little sense of reward, m+ players being geared in 2-3 weeks then having nothing to do, etc.

    My guild doesn't do the following, since we're semi-casual, but I have friends in a 8/10m guild who do exactly this: clear every raid on every difficulty they can (maybe except EN / TOV LFR, but NH LFR yes), because of legendary chance and titanforge chance. This reminds me of horrible period that was Trial of the Crusader in WOTLK where hardcore guilds felt they have to clear the place on 10 normal / 10 hc / 25 normal / 25 hc to maximize the number of badges, that were required back then to pay for your tier pieces (the token alone wasn't enough). The screams about boredom and burn out were heard loud (and the place is considered to this day one of the worst raids Blizzard made ever), and afterwards the reward structure got changed.

    Blizzard always said they know that if they attach good rewards to crap content people are gonna do the crap content and then complain or even unsub because they aren't having fun. They need to apply this wisdom to the current system. People aren't having fun fishing for titanforged shock batons and arcanocrystals, they keep trying because the hope of a good reward is over the horizon, but they can only take so much more until they simply give up.

    This week another 2 mythic guilds on my server are facing the roster issues, this is seriously getting worse than HFC. And that says something.

  16. #176
    Deleted
    very good video with the argument backed up by facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Hey look, a Preach Video where he complains that it's Blizzards fault for his lack of Self-control.

    This is new and interesting.
    how has this video anything to do with self control?
    Last edited by mmocbb854e85f6; 2017-03-20 at 02:42 AM.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Hey look, a Preach Video where he complains that it's Blizzards fault for his lack of Self-control.

    This is new and interesting.
    ... What does his supposed lack of self-control has to do with the video? Or is it yet another "oh hey, it's That Guy's video, I didn't watch it but it's probably shit anyway" post?

    Seriously, what does "self-control" have to do with quality of gear dropping from the instance? Would the rewards magically increased if he had "control"? I mean, I suppose they would, since he'd have less Titanforged items - but so would the effort in acquiring that gear. No net gain, other than satisfying your opinion on his playstyle. Which I don't think anyone cares about.

    Put a bit more effort into your strawman, please.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2017-03-20 at 02:45 AM.

  18. #178
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    The more I see of Nighthold the less I like it. I feel like people don't quite see it yet, but raiding in LEGION will be remembered as one of the worst addons. The reality of bad design didn't quite hit people yet. But in 2-3 years everybody, besides the few odd people who love having a different opinion just for the sake of having a different opinion, is going to look back on LEGION as a failed design in terms of raids.
    (I still like raiding, but LEGION just doesn't feel right. It is something between the lines that takes some time for the broad masses to comprehend)

  19. #179
    Looking at BRF as the first Tier Raid in WoD the change in kill speed is rather similar after 2 months.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Conflux View Post
    The more I see of Nighthold the less I like it. I feel like people don't quite see it yet, but raiding in LEGION will be remembered as one of the worst addons. The reality of bad design didn't quite hit people yet. But in 2-3 years everybody, besides the few odd people who love having a different opinion just for the sake of having a different opinion, is going to look back on LEGION as a failed design in terms of raids.
    (I still like raiding, but LEGION just doesn't feel right. It is something between the lines that takes some time for the broad masses to comprehend)
    Well people were whining WOD was a "mythic raider's wet dream" because there was nothing to do except raids and you could gets mats for your consumables out of garrisons. So typical Blizz 180 degree swing we need to have expansion where "mythic raiders" are shat on from all sides, so the bloodthirsty crowd can get sated in their cry for revenge.

    Consumables are annoying to get - after all these months of claiming "it's fine" or "blood vendor will fix it" they're finally nerfing the herb cost of old war and deadly grace pots, for those few that they were still BIS, whole broken isles are bot infested with herbing drones despite 2-3 bot ban waves, just make any raid group with auto invite (like for world boss) and see being immediately spammed with dozens of druid bots in suramar and stormheim.

    Rewards for mythic raiding are muddled with titanforging all over the place, the "do harder content for better gear" is watered down to the point for many it's not worth the effort (what preach and asmongold are saying). People all over these forums claim titanforging is fine, it's all jealousy that's the problem. No, the problem is they affect tuning (if it's easy to get +10 ilvl that you "should have" while entering the raid, the raid needs to be tuned around it or prove too easy - case of EN). They also affect the curve of gearing, it hits extreme diminishing returns after few weeks because people are geared from head to toe in m+ gear and warforged / titanforged gear from NH hc and normal, so they hit the point no more rewards - no incentive to continue. They also can be a morale breaker, as said on the video, people feel like fools for sinking days of progress into a boss only to see random lfr hero have the same or better item. It's demoralizing. A few can shrug it off, are those few - many enough to continue on?

    The legendaries were another morale breaker, when you knew legendaries were extremely rare and only from top content, like glaives from illidan, you knew only a few people would have them. When legendaries were common, but equal and everyone had one - like MOP cloaks, you knew you're putting the effort, you're getting on equal footing. In Legion people came to NH in a situation they could have farmed countless hours, 1000 m+ and get 5 sub-optimal legendaries only to inspect random Joe lucky in dalaran with 2 super good ones with barely any effort reflected in his achievements. That was another moment when many people decided "why bother".

    The reward structure is broken in this expansion, and it affects not only mythic raiding, I'm pretty sure it affect other aspects of the game too. For example ask pvpers how much they love the current system...

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