Anyone else pretty underwhelmed by the MM tier 20 set bonuses?

[Deleted]

I like it, 20% is a lot.

[Solidux]

I like it, 20% is a lot.

20% off 2 seconds? For a 2p bonus?

[Deleted]

20% off 2 seconds? For a 2p bonus?

Yeah, it will make casting AiS a lot easier and allow me to squeeze in more Arcanes.

It's basically a permanent Sephuz/Drum without the GCD reduction and PPM-increase.

[Khrux]

My concern with BM t20 is that its a complete shift in focus from t19, while our gear is focused on DB resets through mantle/OwtP to increase BW uptime.

With t20 you want to spend every possible global in BW on cobra/KC to get the 1.5% increase and benefit from the flat 20% increased dmg on those skills. While we need to use DBs even in BW for the BW cdr, to avoid capping charges and to regen focus.

Its a pretty terrible design considering how they pushed BM towards a DB focused playstyle and now try to move us in a different direction when we are still reliant on DBs for our spec to function.

[Aryia]

The 2p was obviously made to go wiyj gloves, which almost nobody has already. Same for 4p.

Question: if you cast 4 aimed shot in a row (maybe with lock and load procs if you took the talent) do you get:
- 2 normal shots and 2 20% shots
- 1 normal shot and 3 20% (even if 2 are instants with the proc)

[Cazz17]

Haven't played my hunter in ages, what is the "meme" build? Sounds like fun

[Deleted]

This is my view on the matter
1. Set bonuses are far from final, they are coming with ToS which is not 7.2. Changes are very likely, especially with many hunters giving feedback.
2. Many bosses in ToS is actually ST (4 out of 9 is almost pure ST, and Kil'jaeden is n/a), compared to NH which is pretty much cleave on all fights.
3. Set bonuses seems VERY strong with legendary gloves
4. Continuing from my 2nd point, our current setbonuses for tier20 is boosting our ST a lot. Which will probably be needed for the roadblock bosses.

I agree though that it will pidgeon hole us into the TS build, which will be a bit meh. Not really much variation indeed.

[Kayagurcu]

BM 2 piece - Cobra Shot, Multi-shot, and Kill Command increase the damage bonus of Bestial Wrath by 1.5% for its remaining duration.

lets say your average global cooldown is 1.30, you cast x5 kill command and x5 cobra shot during 15 seconds BW duration. 10x1.5= 15% more damage bonus for BW

BM 4 piece - Cobra Shot, Multi-shot, and Kill Command deal 20% increased damage while Bestial Wrath is active.

I havent done the math but these set bonuses sound so dull.

[satimy]

I'm more underwhelmed by our 50% dodge on cheetah use, and vulnerable traits when people have hated both of those concepts since inception

[Deleted]

really? 0.4 secs reduction. its less than the GCD right ? idoubt if you can fit in a arcane in first palce .

even if you can, why would you be happy if you are bale to cast 1 more arcane ? it doesn't do much damage or proc anything

2x AS + 2xAiS is not possible without some sort of haste buff for me. The setbonus alone will change that (I think).
And I can do it more often than once too (before I go back to the 3AS+1AiS phase) , because of the cost reduction.
Even 3AS+1AiS is extremely close to the limit with my 15% haste. Basically impossible if I have to delay it for 0,1/0,2s

It means we'll be casting more Aimed shots, and that means we'll do more damage. Worst case, we get more leeway to squeeze in that last AiS before we have to refresh Vulnerable.

[Measure]

They are nerfing our deadly aim trait so this 4 piece bonus becomes even more lackluster. Pretty jealous of DH's this tier that get something crazy like 10% increased crit chance to chaos strike while we get 1 more aimed shot in a trueshot window each time.

[Dracodraco]

They are nerfing our deadly aim trait so this 4 piece bonus becomes even more lackluster. Pretty jealous of DH's this tier that get something crazy like 10% increased crit chance to chaos strike while we get 1 more aimed shot in a trueshot window each time.

Meanwhile, in our artifact weapon, we get the most overpowered trait in the game - 10% more vulnerable power per rank. Considering the top ranking MM hunters on a fight like krosus have between 50-60% of their damage from Aimed shot, that means that even in a worst-case scenario, 4x ranks for 40% more vulnerable means that you'll see a 20% increase in aimed shot damage (that assumes that every single one of your aimed shots lands in the last second of vulnerable - realistically, it'll be closer to a 23-25% aimed shot damage gain).

A 20-25% gain to something that does 50-60% of our damage, means our single target DPS increases by anywhere between 10-15%. Fuck, even our golden trait is ballin'; It takes Windburst from a 800% AP shot to a 2300% AP shot (and 2/3 of it is AOE, instead of right now, where it's pure single target), assuming the tank doesn't move the boss away. Considering Windburst does about 5% of our damage on a single target and the damage of windburst is almost trippled (2300 isn't 2400, QQ) that means we'll see an almost 10% DPS increase from our golden trait as well.


You know what DHs get in their artifact? -20 cost on eye beam, 20% crit on blade dance (which makes up about 7% of a DH's damage on single target, meaning a 1.4% dps buff), and a golden trait 10% chance for chaos strike to hit again (so a flat 10% buff to chaos strike, essentially), giving about a 3% dps buff.
I can't speak for how good Eye beam is (it's a pure AOE spell), but I'd say despite Deadly Aim being nerfed we're probably the winners here, getting a good 20-25% DPS buff from filling in our artifact traits.



Also, keep in mind that we can only assume that the 2 set works like the only other thing that has the same wording - trick shot. Which means that it's not every other aimed shot that's got the reduced cast time and focus cost - it's every aimed shot after our first that gets the buff. This will push aimed shot even FURTHER ahead output-wise. Honestly, I'm genuinely surprised they haven't nerfed a lot of this stuff already, but hey. I'll take it.

[Emerald Archer]

Also, keep in mind that we can only assume that the 2 set works like the only other thing that has the same wording - trick shot. Which means that it's not every other aimed shot that's got the reduced cast time and focus cost - it's every aimed shot after our first that gets the buff. This will push aimed shot even FURTHER ahead output-wise. Honestly, I'm genuinely surprised they haven't nerfed a lot of this stuff already, but hey. I'll take it.

It could work like the legendary gloves. And if it does, and you have the gloves, it'd be a cool combo. Just start the fight with a glove proc, then every immobile aimed shot is faster, and the slower ones you have full mobility on.

[Dracodraco]

It could work like the legendary gloves. And if it does, and you have the gloves, it'd be a cool combo. Just start the fight with a glove proc, then every immobile aimed shot is faster, and the slower ones you have full mobility on.

Sure, but it sounds closer in wording to trick shot. To demonstrate:


Trick shot: If there are no other Vulnerable targets, the damage of your next aimed shot is increased by 15%.
Gloves: Your Aimed Shot grants you gyroscopic stabilization, increasing the critical strike chance of your next aimed shot by 15% and making it castable while moving.
Set bonus: Aimed shot reduces the cast time of your next aimed shot by 20%, and reduces its Focus cost by 20%.

The difference obviously being, that gloves gives you a seperate buff that triggers (gyro stab), while the other two just states an increase to your subsequent shots. But sure, it could work like that - still a pretty good bonus nonetheless.

[Emerald Archer]

Sure, but it sounds closer in wording to trick shot. To demonstrate:


Trick shot: If there are no other Vulnerable targets, the damage of your next aimed shot is increased by 15%.
Gloves: Your Aimed Shot grants you gyroscopic stabilization, increasing the critical strike chance of your next aimed shot by 15% and making it castable while moving.
Set bonus: Aimed shot reduces the cast time of your next aimed shot by 20%, and reduces its Focus cost by 20%.

The difference obviously being, that gloves gives you a seperate buff that triggers (gyro stab), while the other two just states an increase to your subsequent shots. But sure, it could work like that - still a pretty good bonus nonetheless.

The only reason I'd doubt that, is because there are probably better ways to word it if that's what they meant. Or honestly, why even have it require the initial aimed shot before. There's many nicer ways to word it. Although, you could be right, it's very early in construction for it, they could easily change the wording to be better.

But I agree, either way I like the 2pc.

[Eapoe]

Meanwhile, in our artifact weapon, we get the most overpowered trait in the game - 10% more vulnerable power per rank. Considering the top ranking MM hunters on a fight like krosus have between 50-60% of their damage from Aimed shot, that means that even in a worst-case scenario, 4x ranks for 40% more vulnerable means that you'll see a 20% increase in aimed shot damage (that assumes that every single one of your aimed shots lands in the last second of vulnerable - realistically, it'll be closer to a 23-25% aimed shot damage gain).

A 20-25% gain to something that does 50-60% of our damage, means our single target DPS increases by anywhere between 10-15%. Fuck, even our golden trait is ballin'; It takes Windburst from a 800% AP shot to a 2300% AP shot (and 2/3 of it is AOE, instead of right now, where it's pure single target), assuming the tank doesn't move the boss away. Considering Windburst does about 5% of our damage on a single target and the damage of windburst is almost trippled (2300 isn't 2400, QQ) that means we'll see an almost 10% DPS increase from our golden trait as well.


You know what DHs get in their artifact? -20 cost on eye beam, 20% crit on blade dance (which makes up about 7% of a DH's damage on single target, meaning a 1.4% dps buff), and a golden trait 10% chance for chaos strike to hit again (so a flat 10% buff to chaos strike, essentially), giving about a 3% dps buff.
I can't speak for how good Eye beam is (it's a pure AOE spell), but I'd say despite Deadly Aim being nerfed we're probably the winners here, getting a good 20-25% DPS buff from filling in our artifact traits.



Also, keep in mind that we can only assume that the 2 set works like the only other thing that has the same wording - trick shot. Which means that it's not every other aimed shot that's got the reduced cast time and focus cost - it's every aimed shot after our first that gets the buff. This will push aimed shot even FURTHER ahead output-wise. Honestly, I'm genuinely surprised they haven't nerfed a lot of this stuff already, but hey. I'll take it.

Still skeptical due to a few things. Even with faster cast time, we still need to stand still for full uptime damage (unless you are lucky enough to pair the gloves). This set bonus/legendary combo decimates the meme build, which again comes down to losing mobility. It shoe horns is into a specific build, something Blizzard says they want to get rid of (I understand there's always a best spec), yet they design a set to specifically push people into playing a certain way. The dreaded nerfs could always happen, if this even becomes something that strong compared to other classes.
DONt get me wrong, I'd love for it to work out, but without the gloves to maximize uptime while moving, then the spec is still hampered by the same issues it has had for the xpac. It feels more like they are just trying to bring it on par with other specs for ST, which can be nice, but makes running tier a pure ST spec, and any AOE fights you might actually be better off going to a high ilvl tier 19.
This also makes it sadder that, if the ST thing is the case, that Blizzard uses a tier set to fix issues (almost like the unintentional issue of BM legendary shoulders completing the class) instead of working on the spec itself and making tier something more interactive or beneficial regardless of the build.

[Deleted]

Meanwhile, in our artifact weapon, we get the most overpowered trait in the game - 10% more vulnerable power per rank. Considering the top ranking MM hunters on a fight like krosus have between 50-60% of their damage from Aimed shot, that means that even in a worst-case scenario, 4x ranks for 40% more vulnerable means that you'll see a 20% increase in aimed shot damage (that assumes that every single one of your aimed shots lands in the last second of vulnerable - realistically, it'll be closer to a 23-25% aimed shot damage gain).

A 20-25% gain to something that does 50-60% of our damage, means our single target DPS increases by anywhere between 10-15%. Fuck, even our golden trait is ballin'; It takes Windburst from a 800% AP shot to a 2300% AP shot (and 2/3 of it is AOE, instead of right now, where it's pure single target), assuming the tank doesn't move the boss away. Considering Windburst does about 5% of our damage on a single target and the damage of windburst is almost trippled (2300 isn't 2400, QQ) that means we'll see an almost 10% DPS increase from our golden trait as well.


You know what DHs get in their artifact? -20 cost on eye beam, 20% crit on blade dance (which makes up about 7% of a DH's damage on single target, meaning a 1.4% dps buff), and a golden trait 10% chance for chaos strike to hit again (so a flat 10% buff to chaos strike, essentially), giving about a 3% dps buff.
I can't speak for how good Eye beam is (it's a pure AOE spell), but I'd say despite Deadly Aim being nerfed we're probably the winners here, getting a good 20-25% DPS buff from filling in our artifact traits.



Also, keep in mind that we can only assume that the 2 set works like the only other thing that has the same wording - trick shot. Which means that it's not every other aimed shot that's got the reduced cast time and focus cost - it's every aimed shot after our first that gets the buff. This will push aimed shot even FURTHER ahead output-wise. Honestly, I'm genuinely surprised they haven't nerfed a lot of this stuff already, but hey. I'll take it.

100% this.
I have no idea why many of you aren't seeing the potential of our new traits and T20. It is literally insane (almost as insane as frost mages new gains).

Apart from not enjoying the playstyle, there is nothing to whine about. The DPS gain will be HUGE if this goes live (will obviously be nerfed or changed).

[Eapoe]

100% this.
I have no idea why many of you aren't seeing the potential of our new traits and T20. It is literally insane (almost as insane as frost mages new gains).

Apart from not enjoying the playstyle, there is nothing to whine about. The DPS gain will be HUGE if this goes live (will obviously be nerfed or changed).

As part of my last post, I don't think it's the damage increase people are upset about as much as forcing MM to play a certain way. It doesn't enhance the playstyle at all, it doesn't offer freedom to play how you want within the bonuses, it does however force people to focus on a strict AiS style of play.
This will also go back to limiting mobility of players that they enjoy having with the meme build as those talents will not be picked so as to maximize the benefit of the tier (back to an AiS playstyle).
As I also stated, this is definitely a huge ST buff, may be even cleave for 2 target fights; however, this tier/artifact becomes useless on any style of AoE fight. I've heard ToS will be majority of ST, so maybe won't play out that bad, but for the fights that aren't ST/Cleave, players will more than likely have to hope they have high ilvl tier 19 to switch out or a decent OS in BM.

[Dracodraco]

In fairness, expecting to have two mostly mobile specs just isn't really fair. Like it or not, being entirely mobile just isn't something ranged should be with no drawbacks. Having BM that has the drawback of pet AI is as close as we should ever really get - having MM be entirely mobile is just asinine, and while it does decent damage, you'll find that outside of AOE padding it's significantly worse than the standard trick shot spec if played properly - there's never really a boss where the AOE damage is important enough to warrant the huge loss in boss damage for going that route (and seeing hunters go explosive shot etc to pad on tichondrius because "LOL NUMBERS" just hurts my soul).

Likewise, you can't imagine that a spec that's built entirely around dumping focus with aimed shot realistically wouldn't get buffs to aimed shot through the tier.

[Deleted]

As part of my last post, I don't think it's the damage increase people are upset about as much as forcing MM to play a certain way. It doesn't enhance the playstyle at all, it doesn't offer freedom to play how you want within the bonuses, it does however force people to focus on a strict AiS style of play.
This will also go back to limiting mobility of players that they enjoy having with the meme build as those talents will not be picked so as to maximize the benefit of the tier (back to an AiS playstyle).
As I also stated, this is definitely a huge ST buff, may be even cleave for 2 target fights; however, this tier/artifact becomes useless on any style of AoE fight. I've heard ToS will be majority of ST, so maybe won't play out that bad, but for the fights that aren't ST/Cleave, players will more than likely have to hope they have high ilvl tier 19 to switch out or a decent OS in BM.

For you first part, I wrote pretty much that on the post before this. So we can agree on that : )
For the second part I disagree that we will be "useless" on any style of AoE fight. The new windburst trait is going to be huge if you can plan/line it up well. It's a 1800% weapon damage over 6 sec on all mobs within the trail. Also (granted you will need the legendary belt for this) a huge portion of the AoE will be a boosted AiS through trickshot. Again it is too bad that it is item bound in this case, but it is far from useless. It actually looks VERY good.

My prediction is that MM will be top 3 specc for ToS. The vulnerable trait will probably nerfed though.

Again, with correct gear (aka belt/gloves/boots) it is just insane. Not many speccs/classes can say that.