Blizzard have effectively gotten rid of flying

[-Joker-]

What is unacceptable - is the fact, that I need to wait for a year for flying to be unlocked at least somewhere.

So your entire issue is with a new design direction being taken by the Dev team. A direction they've wanted to go for years, and have said as much. Seems like you are facing an impossible uphill battle and the other side just don't care. 2270 pages later in a Draenor flight thread and Blizz still didn't care. In fact, a mod closed the thread 2 MONTHS before Blizz decided to add flight. At least it is coming in 7.2.

[SirCowdog]

I can't speak to their reasoning. I can only speak for myself. Personally, I miss when the world felt large, and challenging, and even dangerous. There was a time as a lowbie in Elwynn Forest (2007) when the sound of 2 or more Murlocs attacking meant you were screwed. Now, as a Warlock in looms, I can stand at the lake, pull 20, take very little damage, and simply stand in one spot to loot.

How about you take off your "looms" and quest in a zone above your level instead of trying impose your nostalgia goggles on other players?

While WoW has made some amazing strides forward, it has also made some ugly strides backward. Turning an MMO into a single player experience has done more harm than good... hence the fine folks who simply want to fly from A to B and skip everything in between, including other players.

Sorry, but no. If you want to play with other players, you know what you do? You join a guild, make some friends. You do not design the entire open world around some halfassed attempt to force random players, with different expectations, goals, playstyles, and skill levels, into MAYBE creating a chance that they'll play together.

The fact that there are lots of options for players to solo in the open world does NOT turn WoW into a single-player experience. There is PLENTY of group-oriented content: Raids, dungeons, Arena, RBGs, even questing if you so choose. The idea that you can magically turn someone away from wanting to solo parts of the game by reducing their options and deleting their chosen playstyle is deeply, fundamentally flawed.

Maybe if people aren't interacting with other players it's because they don't want or care about random people? Like I said, there are guilds and friend lists if you want social interaction. Stop trying to create situations where random people who don't want anything to do with each other are forced into "interaction".

As I said before: It boils down to "Make content for only for how I want to play and fuck everyone else".

[Dhrizzle]

THEN DO BOTH! DO all of it! Make content for fliers and make content for grounded people, just like they did in the previous expansions. Go all the way! Stop accepting mediocrity. Stop PAYING for mediocrity.

It's amazing how often you switch goal-posts when called out on your bullshit. Your original point was that flying players would have no effect on ground-based players. When I point out how they will be affected you switch to demanding Blizz devote time towards creating content the way you want it.

I already know I'm going to regret replying to you, because we've had this conversation countless times, and you still don't get it. Every argument against flying boils down to: "Make content for me and only me and fuck everyone else". It's shameful. It's short-sighted.

Please change your signature, every time someone comes up with a statement you can't counter you switch to calling them selfish, also "shameful" and "short-sighted." Just because you're upset that the game is no longer tailored to your particular playstyle doesn't mean you should attack other players who disagree with you.

How is it any worse of me to say that I enjoy the content the way it is and would like Blizz to keep making it that way, compared to you demanding that Blizz take resources away from another aspect of the game to develop content based around flight, especially when they say they've already tried some different things and decided it just isn't the way they want to develop the game?

[-Joker-]

How about you take off your "looms" and quest in a zone above your level instead of trying impose your nostalgia goggles on other players?

Well, Capt Obvious. I already do that. So, since I modify my playstyle as to not interfere with others, maybe you should modify yours so I don't have to deal with people flying over head in current

Sorry, but no. If you want to play with other players, you know what you do? You join a guild, make some friends. You do not design the entire open world around some halfassed attempt to force random players, with different expectations, goals, playstyles, and skill levels, into MAYBE creating a chance that they'll play together.

The fact that there are lots of options for players to solo in the open world does NOT turn WoW into a single-player experience. There is PLENTY of group-oriented content: Raids, dungeons, Arena, RBGs, even questing if you so choose. The idea that you can magically turn someone away from wanting to solo parts of the game by reducing their options and deleting their chosen playstyle is deeply, fundamentally flawed.

Maybe if people aren't interacting with other players it's because they don't want or care about random people? Like I said, there are guilds and friend lists if you want social interaction. Stop trying to create situations where random people who don't want anything to do with each other are forced into "interaction".

As I said before: It boils down to "Make content for only for how I want to play and fuck everyone else".

Your last line is probably the largest piece of hypocrisy. You want flight asap regardless of how it affects the game, the players, or the content. WoW is rapidly becoming a single player experience. As a Druid tank, I solo'd heroic UBRS at lvl 105. Had someone suggested in TBC I could go in as a Druid tank and solo a Heroic dungeon from classic at lvl 65, I would have rolled my eyes and laughed. There's very little left in the game that requires cooperative play. I'm all for convenience, but not at the risk of ruining the experience. Cata really spoiled a bunch of you, and now we have to listen to it every day until 7.2.

[Maudib]

Like I always say in these threads, if you don't want to do the content to get Flying. Why do you even need Flying?

Flying for me is about farming, and efficiently doing dailies and getting around. When it's added back so late in the expansion, I have already lost interest in the grind and since no flying feels bad for my other interests... I leave game.

The game felt WAY more engaging when flying was earned at max level. To me.

While there a several things I find unattractive about the past 2 expansions, not being able to fly at max level is the ONE and ONLY reason I unsubbed... and have been so for the past 6 months. Not coming back to "earn flying" now that the content and farming is irrelevant, and likely will not come back for any future expansions.

I'm not the only one. GG Blizz.

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Well, Capt Obvious. I already do that. So, since I modify my playstyle as to not interfere with others, maybe you should modify yours so I don't have to deal with people flying over head in current



Your last line is probably the largest piece of hypocrisy. You want flight asap regardless of how it affects the game, the players, or the content. WoW is rapidly becoming a single player experience. As a Druid tank, I solo'd heroic UBRS at lvl 105. Had someone suggested in TBC I could go in as a Druid tank and solo a Heroic dungeon from classic at lvl 65, I would have rolled my eyes and laughed. There's very little left in the game that requires cooperative play. I'm all for convenience, but not at the risk of ruining the experience. Cata really spoiled a bunch of you, and now we have to listen to it every day until 7.2.

FYI... flying has been in game at max level since BC. And flying enhanced the game, not detracted anything. Only the last two failed expansions tried to leverage flying as a carrot to stay longer in the game.. and failed at that miserably.

[Wingerie]

FYI... flying has been in game at max level since BC.

Yeah, one of the two things that hurt game alot in BC. This and resilience. Getting rid of flying in the first half of xpac is great decision, which brought back actual exploration and stitched the world back together. In WoW flying is effectively half-ass version of teleportation.

[Deleted]

Why flying leads to linear questing? Why ground doesn't? I see no correlation of the movement way and quest progression. While flying i can always land to see what this yellow exclamation mark guy wants from me.

Large empty areas? Yes, bad design. They can be populated, tho. They can have resources or other things (spawning chests, for example) that drive you there. Maybe have dangerous foes that need cooperation to be downed. Fixed your bad design. But i fixed it by making it... COSTLY. In time and money.

Travelling in Legion is fine for 2-3 months. 5 maybe. But if you play from the start, no. It's tedious and boring. Opinions differ.

Yeah... skipping that ridiculous costly point.

It leads to linear questing because it's the only way to keep people on a path. Access to verticality turns walls and mountains and gates and doors and mobs and whatever completely flat, which are all tools used to tell a story.

Yeah so icecrown with a chest you can fly to to collect and mount up again.... Yeah that's why you don't design video games I guess

Travelling in legion is fine. It's not a matter of opinions. If you can't wait 1-2-3 minutes to get anywhere it's your problem.

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I can't speak to their reasoning. I can only speak for myself. Personally, I miss when the world felt large, and challenging, and even dangerous. There was a time as a lowbie in Elwynn Forest (2007) when the sound of 2 or more Murlocs attacking meant you were screwed. Now, as a Warlock in looms, I can stand at the lake, pull 20, take very little damage, and simply stand in one spot to loot.

While WoW has made some amazing strides forward, it has also made some ugly strides backward. Turning an MMO into a single player experience has done more harm than good... hence the fine folks who simply want to fly from A to B and skip everything in between, including other players.

I agree with you. Imagine the backlash from these people if mobs were actually threatening.

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Flying for me is about farming, and efficiently doing dailies and getting around. When it's added back so late in the expansion, I have already lost interest in the grind and since no flying feels bad for my other interests... I leave game.

The game felt WAY more engaging when flying was earned at max level. To me.

While there a several things I find unattractive about the past 2 expansions, not being able to fly at max level is the ONE and ONLY reason I unsubbed... and have been so for the past 6 months. Not coming back to "earn flying" now that the content and farming is irrelevant, and likely will not come back for any future expansions.

I'm not the only one. GG Blizz.

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FYI... flying has been in game at max level since BC. And flying enhanced the game, not detracted anything. Only the last two failed expansions tried to leverage flying as a carrot to stay longer in the game.. and failed at that miserably.

Lol listen to this guy. He unsubbed cause he can't fly... mwahahahah.
I know you didn't and you're still there playing 12 hours a day, but I really wish you did. Creepos like you aren't beneficial to the game

[-Joker-]

FYI... flying has been in game at max level since BC. And flying enhanced the game, not detracted anything. Only the last two failed expansions tried to leverage flying as a carrot to stay longer in the game.. and failed at that miserably.

Imagine how much bigger Storm Peaks and Icecrown would have been had flight not been an option.

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I agree with you. Imagine the backlash from these people if mobs were actually threatening.

Before a handful of nerfs, there were plenty of world elites on Pandaria and Draenor that were capable of 1 shotting most players. Swooping in to pick off rares actually failed in most cases until 5.3. Then again, the world is plenty dangerous if you are not in looms or raid gear. People intentionally over gear and play the FoTM just to make sure they are able to solo whatever they encounter.

[WowIsDead64]

See

Depending on where you're trying to go you could probably avoid half of those orcs, but even if you had to kill all of them and your "1 minute respawn" was accurate you could probably get in and out quicker and with less downtime or danger of death than you could in the TBC content.

I can't speak to their reasoning. I can only speak for myself. Personally, I miss when the world felt large, and challenging, and even dangerous. There was a time as a lowbie in Elwynn Forest (2007) when the sound of 2 or more Murlocs attacking meant you were screwed. Now, as a Warlock in looms, I can stand at the lake, pull 20, take very little damage, and simply stand in one spot to loot.

While WoW has made some amazing strides forward, it has also made some ugly strides backward. Turning an MMO into a single player experience has done more harm than good... hence the fine folks who simply want to fly from A to B and skip everything in between, including other players.

I don't know. It's hard to explain without showing you video, that would show difference between completing content on a ground and completing content with flying in different conditions, such as different class/spec, different design of locations, different ilvl of gear and different level of competition. If I would record such video, you would see, that flying smoothes content. Flying - is like rectifier filter. Content constantly fluctuates from totally enjoyable to unbearable. It's way too unstable. Enjoyment depends on too many factors. Such as for example when location population is low content may be enjoyable and when location starts to be overpopulated - enjoyment drops pretty fast.

Remember, that your opinion can be way too subjective due to having very narrow vision of situation. For example you may play class, that is very good in any conditions, such as Hunter for example. But Mage or Priest could be unbearable in exact the same conditions. Also you can have playstyle, that can prevent you from having any problems - such as playing in groups, that makes any outdoor content TRIVIAL. You can have overgear due to getting gear from other sources, such as dungeons and raids. This TRIVIALIZES content either. This problem is very common. It boils down to "I personally don't have problems, so you shouldn't have them either" and "I fixed balance problems via picking OP Meta class - you should do the same". And this is just wrong. Cuz your choice to trivialize content via some other means shouldn't affect my choice.

So. Problem isn't with one year of no flying itself. Problem is with fact, that I can't bear this year of no flying. Several weeks? Month may be? Ok. But year? No! I would quit after several weeks of playing such content anyway. So why would I even try? Why would I pay 60$ for xpack, I wouldn't play? I can't bear it, cuz Blizzard just can't make ground content STABLE AND SMOOTH ENOUGH. I've already explained, what stable and smooth content mean. Clear roads, larger locations with lesser density of mobs, no mandatory elite/fat/packs of mobs, lower respawn rates. I.e. everything, we had back in WotLK.

I don't ask much. I don't even ask Blizzard to create content both for flyers and no-flyers. I just ask one simple thing. Of course it would be better, if they would make smooth no flying content. But if they can't make content smooth enough to be bearable without flying - then they should make at least some content flyable within reasonable amount of time, so I would be able to keep myself busy till some other content would be opened for flying and so on. At least some content, that obsoletes for other players pretty fast. AT LEAST LEVELING CONTENT. If Blizzard refuse to make even such small step - then I don't know... Then they really don't treat me as valuable customer.

[Fabinas]

Yeah... skipping that ridiculous costly point.

It leads to linear questing because it's the only way to keep people on a path. Access to verticality turns walls and mountains and gates and doors and mobs and whatever completely flat, which are all tools used to tell a story.

Yeah so icecrown with a chest you can fly to to collect and mount up again.... Yeah that's why you don't design video games I guess

Travelling in legion is fine. It's not a matter of opinions. If you can't wait 1-2-3 minutes to get anywhere it's your problem.

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I agree with you. Imagine the backlash from these people if mobs were actually threatening.

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Lol listen to this guy. He unsubbed cause he can't fly... mwahahahah.
I know you didn't and you're still there playing 12 hours a day, but I really wish you did. Creepos like you aren't beneficial to the game

The only ridiculous thing here is you. When you actually want to discuss anything in this thread, instead of dismissing, come back. So funny.

[Deleted]

Yeah, one of the two things that hurt game alot in BC. This and resilience. Getting rid of flying in the first half of xpac is great decision, which brought back actual exploration and stitched the world back together. In WoW flying is effectively half-ass version of teleportation.

oh what a GREAT EXPLORATION.... Stop defending Blizzard for being unwilling to design the World WITH flying in Mind

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Imagine how much bigger Storm Peaks and Icecrown would have been had flight not been an option.

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Before a handful of nerfs, there were plenty of world elites on Pandaria and Draenor that were capable of 1 shotting most players. Swooping in to pick off rares actually failed in most cases until 5.3. Then again, the world is plenty dangerous if you are not in looms or raid gear. People intentionally over gear and play the FoTM just to make sure they are able to solo whatever they encounter.

Imagine if they had just made it bigger .. crazy how this works both ways right ???

Flying has been in the Game since TBC... thats 10 out of 12 years. And Blizzard havent gotten rid of it. They just fuck with their Players and i hope it backfires badly

[Elim Garak]

Imagine how much bigger Storm Peaks and Icecrown would have been had flight not been an option.

Haha, without flying they would've been SMALLER, because there would've been no need to make them big.

It's clearly seen in WoD and will soon be seen in Legion. Both expansion are VERY SMALL zone wise. You fly so fast in Draenor you miss stuff on the minimap and have to circle back. Except you fly as fast as before, it's the ZONE SIZE.

The only reason it looks ok in Legion is because of convoluted paths and various objects that stop you in place, oh and the mobs everywhere.

That will soon change with flying and everyone will see with their own eyes how stupidly small the zones are.

P.S. For those who can't wait to see it - roll a DH and jump off Dalaran into Broken Shores and glide. You will be gliding with a ground mount's speed but it will feel like you are flying with 310% speed. Then do the same with the flying toy, which is way faster.

[Gamevizier]

I still think they shouldn't just introduce or cut flying, rather have flying integrated into the zones, some zones can be no-fly zones and some zones can actually be designed in a way to encourage flying (like stormpeaks) with added verticality so that you don't feel that you're just passing over a single terrain, but rather, descent and ascent through multiple levels of terrain using your trusty flying mount.

it adds a very interesting experience overall: single level terrains with no or limited flying (like dangerous jungles, filled with mysteries and hidden places) and multiple-floored zones like mountains and cliff zones, full of vertical mini-zones and dangerous narrow passages.

PS: I also love Vashjir and zones that have aquatic/coastal themes. some people hate Vashjir, but that zone is actually one of the zones I almost always choose to level my alts up in. it's a breath of fresh air to the same-old tedious format of zones we currently have.

[bufferunderrun]

I can't speak to their reasoning. I can only speak for myself. Personally, I miss when the world felt large, and challenging, and even dangerous. There was a time as a lowbie in Elwynn Forest (2007) when the sound of 2 or more Murlocs attacking meant you were screwed. Now, as a Warlock in looms, I can stand at the lake, pull 20, take very little damage, and simply stand in one spot to loot.

While WoW has made some amazing strides forward, it has also made some ugly strides backward. Turning an MMO into a single player experience has done more harm than good... hence the fine folks who simply want to fly from A to B and skip everything in between, including other players.

Don't you think that those changes were done to attract new players? Back in wotlk i remember GC saying their main problem was the reduced number of new player who started fresh new compared to vanilla and bc and that they need to change thing to follow the new gamers mentality.

Did you think that leaving thing vanilla way would have contributed to lure new player into wow? Vanilla was good at that time, i have to say that wow was a ground breaking novelty compared to that time competitors and that is why it basically smashed everyone but now?

[Deleted]

I don't know. It's hard to explain without showing you video, that would show difference between completing content on a ground and completing content with flying in different conditions, such as different class/spec, different design of locations, different ilvl of gear and different level of competition. If I would record such video, you would see, that flying smoothes content. Flying - is like rectifier filter. Content constantly fluctuates from totally enjoyable to unbearable. It's way too unstable. Enjoyment depends on too many factors. Such as for example when location population is low content may be enjoyable and when location starts to be overpopulated - enjoyment drops pretty fast.

Remember, that your opinion can be way too subjective due to having very narrow vision of situation. For example you may play class, that is very good in any conditions, such as Hunter for example. But Mage or Priest could be unbearable in exact the same conditions. Also you can have playstyle, that can prevent you from having any problems - such as playing in groups, that makes any outdoor content TRIVIAL. You can have overgear due to getting gear from other sources, such as dungeons and raids. This TRIVIALIZES content either. This problem is very common. It boils down to "I personally don't have problems, so you shouldn't have them either" and "I fixed balance problems via picking OP Meta class - you should do the same". And this is just wrong. Cuz your choice to trivialize content via some other means shouldn't affect my choice.

So. Problem isn't with one year of no flying itself. Problem is with fact, that I can't bear this year of no flying. Several weeks? Month may be? Ok. But year? No! I would quit after several weeks of playing such content anyway. So why would I even try? Why would I pay 60$ for xpack, I wouldn't play? I can't bear it, cuz Blizzard just can't make ground content STABLE AND SMOOTH ENOUGH. I've already explained, what stable and smooth content mean. Clear roads, larger locations with lesser density of mobs, no mandatory elite/fat/packs of mobs, lower respawn rates. I.e. everything, we had back in WotLK.

I don't ask much. I don't even ask Blizzard to create content both for flyers and no-flyers. I just ask one simple thing. Of course it would be better, if they would make smooth no flying content. But if they can't make content smooth enough to be bearable without flying - then they should make at least some content flyable within reasonable amount of time, so I would be able to keep myself busy till some other content would be opened for flying and so on. At least some content, that obsoletes for other players pretty fast. AT LEAST LEVELING CONTENT. If Blizzard refuse to make even such small step - then I don't know... Then they really don't treat me as valuable customer.

No. You will not get what you're wishing for, because it would make the game worst for everyone else but a group of weird people that find travelling around in legion "unbearable".

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oh what a GREAT EXPLORATION.... Stop defending Blizzard for being unwilling to design the World WITH flying in Mind

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Imagine if they had just made it bigger .. crazy how this works both ways right ???

Flying has been in the Game since TBC... thats 10 out of 12 years. And Blizzard havent gotten rid of it. They just fuck with their Players and i hope it backfires badly

It won't backfire though. You know why? No one cares.
No one cares about the lack of flying in legion apart from people that make it a matter of principles. People with WAAAAAY too much free time on their hands.

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Haha, without flying they would've been SMALLER, because there would've been no need to make them big.

It's clearly seen in WoD and will soon be seen in Legion. Both expansion are VERY SMALL zone wise. You fly so fast in Draenor you miss stuff on the minimap and have to circle back. Except you fly as fast as before, it's the ZONE SIZE.

The only reason it looks ok in Legion is because of convoluted paths and various objects that stop you in place, oh and the mobs everywhere.

That will soon change with flying and everyone will see with their own eyes how stupidly small the zones are.

P.S. For those who can't wait to see it - roll a DH and jump off Dalaran into Broken Shores and glide. You will be gliding with a ground mount's speed but it will feel like you are flying with 310% speed. Then do the same with the flying toy, which is way faster.

Yeah so? What... you judge a zone by its size? Is uldum now good? And suramar bad because it's smaller?

[Zalamander]

It won't backfire though. You know why? No one cares.
No one cares about the lack of flying in legion apart from people that make it a matter of principles. People with WAAAAAY too much free time on their hands.

Yeah I know like, no one cares...
I suppose blizzard had to do a 180 on theire decition to get rid of flying completely because "no one cares" m8, good one.

[Hottage]

They've turned it from a cop-out which trivialises world content and reagent farming into a reward for actually exploring and experiencing the world, which makes levelling alts easier.

Sounds good to me.

[Deleted]

Yeah I know like, no one cares...
I suppose blizzard had to do a 180 on theire decition to get rid of flying completely because "no one cares" m8, good one.

They never said they wanted to get rid of flying. That's just in the head of some people.

[Elim Garak]

They've turned it from a cop-out which trivialises world content and reagent farming into a reward for actually exploring and experiencing the world which makes levelling alts easier.

Sounds good to me.

Yeah, it's like giving explorers a map of the area they explored as a reward for the exploration effort.

[Deleted]

Yeah, it's like giving explorers a map of the area they explored as a reward for the exploration effort.

No. It's like giving explorers a flying mount as a reward for the exploration effort.