Blizzard have effectively gotten rid of flying

[Zalamander]

They never said they wanted to get rid of flying. That's just in the head of some people.

Oh yes, they did. Don't go into arguments if you don't know the history of them and whats been going down please.
They had to change their mind on that pretty quickly tho because I guess no one cares. Before that event they were even so arrogant to claim that they wont add flying again in draenor or any future content because they had found the players like the game more without flying, oh the irony.

[Deleted]

Oh yes, they did. Don't go into arguments if you don't know the history of them and whats been going down please.
They had to change their mind on that pretty quickly tho because I guess no one cares. Before that event they were even so arrogant to claim that they wont add flying again in draenor or any future content because they had found the players like the game more without flying, oh the irony.

Yeah blizzard evil corporation wants to take your rights.
God you people are weird.

[Hottage]

Yeah, it's like giving explorers a map of the area they explored as a reward for the exploration effort.

1. Poor comparison.
2. You have to explore an area to be able to fill in the map.

[WowIsDead64]

No. You will not get what you're wishing for, because it would make the game worst for everyone else but a group of weird people that find travelling around in legion "unbearable".

I personally think, that Blizzard realized, that players were using flying in the past, because ground content had some problems. They want to fix this problems, but they can't do it without feedback. That's why flying is being temporary removed. I guess, at some point, when all problems with ground content will be solved and therefore flying won't be so mandatory - Blizzard will soften their restrictions. Implementation of shared mob tags, phased quest items and sharding - is already big step towards right direction. I hope, they will solve all other problems in next xpack. Yeah, Blizzard are extremely slow and usually solve problems, when it's way too late, but there is one thing about them, that is common - sooner or later, but they solve all problems, their game has.

Biggest problem for me: one should be happy to see other players out in the world. With current system - it still isn't the case. PVP restriction (other faction is your enemy) and CRZ, that doesn't respect faction balance - are biggest contributors to this problem.

[Deleted]

I personally think, that Blizzard realized, that players were using flying in the past, because ground content had some problems. They want to fix this problems, but they can't do it without feedback. That's why flying is being temporary removed. I guess, at some point, when all problems with ground content will be solved and therefore flying won't be so mandatory - Blizzard will soften their restrictions. Implementation of shared mob tags, phased quest items and sharding - is already big step towards right direction. I hope, they will solve all other problems in next xpack. Yeah, Blizzard are extremely slow and usually solve problems, when it's way too late, but there is one thing about them, that is common - sooner or later, but they solve all problems, their game has.

Biggest problem for me: one should be happy to see other players out in the world. With current system - it still isn't the case. PVP restriction (other faction is your enemy) and CRZ, that doesn't respect faction balance - are biggest contributors to this problem.

We were using flying mount because it's faster and you get to skip everything at your leisure. That's why it was limited and delayed.

And that balance of ground content and faster alternative travelling times is in wow already, in legion.

[Zalamander]

Yeah blizzard evil corporation wants to take your rights.
God you people are weird.

I dunno, would call you weird fanboy with stockholm syndrome who think its ok that evil company takes your rights and stuff you payed for and loved for many years then.

[WowIsDead64]

We were using flying mount because it's faster and you get to skip everything at your leisure. That's why it was limited and delayed.

And that balance of ground content and faster alternative travelling times is in wow already, in legion.

I use flying mounts, because they're faster, but I do it not because I want everything to be faster - I use them, because faster travel times compensate other problems. If there wouldn't be such problems - I wouldn't need flying.

P.S. Your "forum PVP" suggests me, that in game you're PVPer (Or may be PVE Elitist - player, who thinks, that "bads" are dirt and don't deserve playing Wow. Or both). Your nick and avatar suggest me, that you play Rogue - class, that was one of the strongest outdoor content classes in the past, exactly due to having stealth. Don't treat this conclusion as personal attack on your arguments, cuz it isn't, but I think, that your motivations for being anti-flyer are most likely PVP-biased.

[Deleted]

I dunno, would call you weird fanboy with stockholm syndrome who think its ok that evil company takes your rights and stuff you payed for and loved for many years then.

Which is what makes you weird.

[Roar-Powah]

You guys are still arguing on flying? Seriously, the achievement system is there to stay people. Even if you dislike it, it's the closest to a compromise you'll see. World of Warcraft moved on with this philosophy and it's part of the core game. It's not going to change.

I mean, I understand some people might be upset about it. I don't know what to tell you.

If Blizzard keep up with this mentally they will have no one playing. MMOs in general should revert changes if they don't work. Just look at CRZ, it has failed on so many levels yet they are keeping it in when server merges and or more connected realms are a better choice. If a system isn't broken or it has been in the game for so long why break it for. Flying the way it was before WoD was fine, i don't understand the need to force this shit on people when it was working fine ever since TBC.

[Elim Garak]

1. Poor comparison.
2. You have to explore an area to be able to fill in the map.

It's perfect comparison, exactly because you have to explore the area (play everything ad nauseam) to be able to fill the map (unlock flying), but you then don't need the map (flying) yourself.

[Deleted]

I use flying mounts, because they're faster, but I do it not because I want everything to be faster - I use them, because faster travel times compensate other problems. If there wouldn't be such problems - I wouldn't need flying.

P.S. Your "forum PVP" suggests me, that in game you're PVPer (Or may be PVE Elitist - player, who thinks, that "bads" are dirt and don't deserve playing Wow. Or both). Your nick and avatar suggest me, that you play Rogue - class, that was one of the strongest outdoor content classes in the past, exactly due to having stealth. Don't treat this conclusion as personal attack on your arguments, cuz it isn't, but I think, that your motivations for being anti-flyer are most likely PVP-biased.

Yes flying mounts are faster because you skip all walls and mobs and boundaries. Which is somewhat of a key point.

I'm not elitist at all. I've never been. I didnt pvp until cata. And even then with limited results. Never been hardcore. I picked rogue as my main in this expansion. My second char from vanilla <3. At the time stealth slowed you down big time so it was not an alternative to travelling. Stealth is game mechanics, it's there to give an advantage in combat, oh and also, you still need to pay a lot of attention when stealthing or you get spotted. It's not really a straight line across like flying. AND it does not give you access to verticality. So boundaries still count.

- - - Updated - - -

It's perfect comparison, exactly because you have to explore the area (play everything ad nauseam) to be able to fill the map (unlock flying), but you then don't need the map (flying) yourself.

You don't do wq or dungeons ever again on your main nor alts?

[Dastreus]

*has

But on topic. I'd love it back. Some of the spawn locations for profession WQs for example (looking at Brimstone Infernal, mainly...) are just so out of the way and convoluted to get to. Like this one spot in Azsuna, where you gotta go to Illidari Stand or Azurewing whatever, go to the ruined ghost temple to the west, just before it, get on a mountain pass. Mountain pass twists and turns for like 2 minutes before you get to the infernal. It also takes a couple minutes to get to the path, not counting dismounted from dazed, or time it took on flight path.

Bare minimum of 5 minutes to get to one mob with an over-inflated health pool for one WQ. []COOL. MY IDEA OF FUN. [/sarcasm]

[Deleted]

*has

But on topic. I'd love it back. Some of the spawn locations for profession WQs for example (looking at Brimstone Infernal, mainly...) are just so out of the way and convoluted to get to. Like this one spot in Azsuna, where you gotta go to Illidari Stand or Azurewing whatever, go to the ruined ghost temple to the west, just before it, get on a mountain pass. Mountain pass twists and turns for like 2 minutes before you get to the infernal. It also takes a couple minutes to get to the path, not counting dismounted from dazed, or time it took on flight path.

Bare minimum of 5 minutes to get to one mob with an over-inflated health pool for one WQ. []COOL. MY IDEA OF FUN. [/sarcasm]

Dont do it? I've been avoiding that quest for example.

[Vaelorian]

I don't know. It's hard to explain without showing you video, that would show difference between completing content on a ground and completing content with flying in different conditions, such as different class/spec, different design of locations, different ilvl of gear and different level of competition. If I would record such video, you would see, that flying smoothes content. Flying - is like rectifier filter. Content constantly fluctuates from totally enjoyable to unbearable. It's way too unstable. Enjoyment depends on too many factors. Such as for example when location population is low content may be enjoyable and when location starts to be overpopulated - enjoyment drops pretty fast.

Remember, that your opinion can be way too subjective due to having very narrow vision of situation. For example you may play class, that is very good in any conditions, such as Hunter for example. But Mage or Priest could be unbearable in exact the same conditions. Also you can have playstyle, that can prevent you from having any problems - such as playing in groups, that makes any outdoor content TRIVIAL. You can have overgear due to getting gear from other sources, such as dungeons and raids. This TRIVIALIZES content either. This problem is very common. It boils down to "I personally don't have problems, so you shouldn't have them either" and "I fixed balance problems via picking OP Meta class - you should do the same". And this is just wrong. Cuz your choice to trivialize content via some other means shouldn't affect my choice.

So. Problem isn't with one year of no flying itself. Problem is with fact, that I can't bear this year of no flying. Several weeks? Month may be? Ok. But year? No! I would quit after several weeks of playing such content anyway. So why would I even try? Why would I pay 60$ for xpack, I wouldn't play? I can't bear it, cuz Blizzard just can't make ground content STABLE AND SMOOTH ENOUGH. I've already explained, what stable and smooth content mean. Clear roads, larger locations with lesser density of mobs, no mandatory elite/fat/packs of mobs, lower respawn rates. I.e. everything, we had back in WotLK.

I don't ask much. I don't even ask Blizzard to create content both for flyers and no-flyers. I just ask one simple thing. Of course it would be better, if they would make smooth no flying content. But if they can't make content smooth enough to be bearable without flying - then they should make at least some content flyable within reasonable amount of time, so I would be able to keep myself busy till some other content would be opened for flying and so on. At least some content, that obsoletes for other players pretty fast. AT LEAST LEVELING CONTENT. If Blizzard refuse to make even such small step - then I don't know... Then they really don't treat me as valuable customer.

I must say that as a pro-flyer, you made some well thought out points. Or rather you are not writing a rage post full of nonsense.

But let's say that you get what you want right? A world were groundcontent is smooth. You said you wanted:
1. low mob density
2. clear roads (no mobs)
3. larger locations
4. no elite packs
5. low respawn rates

This in itself will make the world as it currently is really. -a single player game with no danger to anyone-
In Legion there are no mandatory elite packs, unless you are doing worldquests which are optional. And you would mostly traverse the world for these quests while taking a taxi 80% of that time.

And what about that "class" that you claim to make content trivial... So he picks a druid and due to that he has an advantage? Really? So because he according to you has an advantage he does not require flying as much in current content (content as a whole from Vanilla until Legion)?

If you play your class well and know the drawbacks and dangers in the world, this "trivializes" content far more then being able to switch to tankspec and dps or healing spec. Epic and heroic gear trivializes content, really? So we all should not gear up? Thats what this game is about you know. And has nothing to do with flying. Well the only coincidental this is that gearing up does trivialize outdoor content. Flying does this too. But really.... If you had flying from the get go... wouldn't a lot of people feel: why bother gearing up...? Obviously this is not a mindset you have. The thing is - people who love flying should at the very least appreciate or respect that there are people who dislike flying. Or rather what flying means. Obviously no one dislikes flying itself.
Same way people who dislike flying should appreciate or respect people who like flying. And I miss a lot of that in loads of posts in this thread.

The thing is that you are describing a problem that you feel the solution is flight. While balancing the game would be a far better solution if you want a smooth outdoor world thingy.

Personally I want flying to be launched as they do it now. Yes I want flying but only after most or all content has been consumed via groundmounts.
I want the groundcontent / outdoor content to be dangerous, even to a point where raidgeared people need to at times fear for their lives. Which means that some mobs should be nigh impossible to defeat as you are questing or doing normal/heroic dungeons. You could argue that this is already in place with the 112 elite mobs. This is not what I mean. I mean area's where you probably could sneak your way past or through as a questing player but would get your ass handed to you if you should agro a mob or mobs. I am not here to just do Mythic+ dungeons or raids. I want every bit of content to potentially be a case where I might die. Obviously in such an area the rewards should be better suited for itemlevel XYZ instead of questing greens. But they this is my idea and this would probably be exploited to death. So not really balanced. But this would make me happy for my experience.

Flying for me takes away immersion for as long there is content that I need to do or have not visited yet. When that experience is behind me, hell yeah flying can be an addition to the game instead of it being a detractor of my experience. But I do understand that some people want it "smoother". But how smooth do you want it really? Is the game not already smooth as fuck? Do you die regularly? Did you die regularly while questing? Really? I am but a mediocre player now and I don't die as often. But yeah... I play a paladin... so I can "easily" deal with everything right? Honestly I have had the same experience on my warrior.

But how is this experience of no flight unbearable? Truly? You have the whistle. You have various FP. You have teleports all over the world. You have goblin flightkits.

I honestly don't miss flying often. Sometimes maybe if I want to go someplace and I have a cooldown on my item X. Yeah I get annoyed. But otherwise flight is sorta meaningless. So how is it unbearable? What makes it unbearable?

In this thread I have heard that people don't like to quest and want to make it the shortest experience as they can. This include world quests. Isn't the content itself where the problem then lies for you? What would you fix about that type of content to make it fun? Because flight still does not change the content, it just makes it a little quicker.

[Deleted]

If Blizzard keep up with this mentally they will have no one playing. MMOs in general should revert changes if they don't work. Just look at CRZ, it has failed on so many levels yet they are keeping it in when server merges and or more connected realms are a better choice. If a system isn't broken or it has been in the game for so long why break it for. Flying the way it was before WoD was fine, i don't understand the need to force this shit on people when it was working fine ever since TBC.

I agree with this, it was fine the way it was. It was the reason I was playing wow over any other mmo. Back in BC, or actually in Wotlk, because in BC I didn't have the gold to purchase flying, it gave such a sense of freedom in WoW, you could go wherever you wan to go, travel was fast and effective. I love every aspect of flying, and it was so unique. I remember they made such a big deal out of flying when promoting TBC.
When they removed it, I gave other mmo's a try, and to my experience these mmo's are at least just as good for me (my opinion), and travel is as convenient, or even more efficient compared to wow.
For me the thing that made wow so much more interesting is gone now. Or at least it's delayed and delayed to a point where it becomes totally irrelevant.
I do not remember countless page topics about 'ingame flying' when it was ingame, the amount of pages when it was removed however, dear lord, you'd think an alarmbell would go off, and they would reconsider. But in stead they stubbournly keep this 'no flying' enforced ingame. This expansion has been out for how long? Seeing how much trouble guilds have to maintain their raid roster, I'd say this expansion is over it's peak, most people are down to AP grinding, some wq's and raiding, and still players are not soaring the skies.
They may have listened to all those pages of player not being happy about still not having flight, but they are saying screw you all, we don't want to give it to you, but as proof that we are listening, we'll give it to you when it's useless. Feels like they are just making fun of their playerbase.

[-Joker-]

Haha, without flying they would've been SMALLER, because there would've been no need to make them big.

It's clearly seen in WoD and will soon be seen in Legion. Both expansion are VERY SMALL zone wise. You fly so fast in Draenor you miss stuff on the minimap and have to circle back. Except you fly as fast as before, it's the ZONE SIZE.

The only reason it looks ok in Legion is because of convoluted paths and various objects that stop you in place, oh and the mobs everywhere.

That will soon change with flying and everyone will see with their own eyes how stupidly small the zones are.

P.S. For those who can't wait to see it - roll a DH and jump off Dalaran into Broken Shores and glide. You will be gliding with a ground mount's speed but it will feel like you are flying with 310% speed. Then do the same with the flying toy, which is way faster.

We didn't get air travel until the 20th Century, but mountains have ALWAYS been that tall. Just ask Lewis and Clark.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't you think that those changes were done to attract new players? Back in wotlk i remember GC saying their main problem was the reduced number of new player who started fresh new compared to vanilla and bc and that they need to change thing to follow the new gamers mentality.

Did you think that leaving thing vanilla way would have contributed to lure new player into wow? Vanilla was good at that time, i have to say that wow was a ground breaking novelty compared to that time competitors and that is why it basically smashed everyone but now?

I think it was possible to split the diff. Flight that came with Cata effectively changed it. Without flight on Azeroth, and restricting it to end game only at each level, it would have been perfect. So today, you could only fly:

In Outlands at 70, but back on the ground in Wrath
In Wrath at 77, but back on the ground at 85 for Cata
At 85 in specific Cata zones, but back on the ground for Pandaria...

etc, etc.

Unlock flight at 60 and let it ride? Not a wise choice, and now the game is suffering for it.

[Deleted]

I must say that as a pro-flyer, you made some well thought out points. Or rather you are not writing a rage post full of nonsense.

But let's say that you get what you want right? A world were groundcontent is smooth. You said you wanted:
1. low mob density
2. clear roads (no mobs)
3. larger locations
4. no elite packs
5. low respawn rates

This in itself will make the world as it currently is really. -a single player game with no danger to anyone-
In Legion there are no mandatory elite packs, unless you are doing worldquests which are optional. And you would mostly traverse the world for these quests while taking a taxi 80% of that time.

And what about that "class" that you claim to make content trivial... So he picks a druid and due to that he has an advantage? Really? So because he according to you has an advantage he does not require flying as much in current content (content as a whole from Vanilla until Legion)?

If you play your class well and know the drawbacks and dangers in the world, this "trivializes" content far more then being able to switch to tankspec and dps or healing spec. Epic and heroic gear trivializes content, really? So we all should not gear up? Thats what this game is about you know. And has nothing to do with flying. Well the only coincidental this is that gearing up does trivialize outdoor content. Flying does this too. But really.... If you had flying from the get go... wouldn't a lot of people feel: why bother gearing up...? Obviously this is not a mindset you have. The thing is - people who love flying should at the very least appreciate or respect that there are people who dislike flying. Or rather what flying means. Obviously no one dislikes flying itself.
Same way people who dislike flying should appreciate or respect people who like flying. And I miss a lot of that in loads of posts in this thread.

The thing is that you are describing a problem that you feel the solution is flight. While balancing the game would be a far better solution if you want a smooth outdoor world thingy.

Personally I want flying to be launched as they do it now. Yes I want flying but only after most or all content has been consumed via groundmounts.
I want the groundcontent / outdoor content to be dangerous, even to a point where raidgeared people need to at times fear for their lives. Which means that some mobs should be nigh impossible to defeat as you are questing or doing normal/heroic dungeons. You could argue that this is already in place with the 112 elite mobs. This is not what I mean. I mean area's where you probably could sneak your way past or through as a questing player but would get your ass handed to you if you should agro a mob or mobs. I am not here to just do Mythic+ dungeons or raids. I want every bit of content to potentially be a case where I might die. Obviously in such an area the rewards should be better suited for itemlevel XYZ instead of questing greens. But they this is my idea and this would probably be exploited to death. So not really balanced. But this would make me happy for my experience.

Flying for me takes away immersion for as long there is content that I need to do or have not visited yet. When that experience is behind me, hell yeah flying can be an addition to the game instead of it being a detractor of my experience. But I do understand that some people want it "smoother". But how smooth do you want it really? Is the game not already smooth as fuck? Do you die regularly? Did you die regularly while questing? Really? I am but a mediocre player now and I don't die as often. But yeah... I play a paladin... so I can "easily" deal with everything right? Honestly I have had the same experience on my warrior.

But how is this experience of no flight unbearable? Truly? You have the whistle. You have various FP. You have teleports all over the world. You have goblin flightkits.

I honestly don't miss flying often. Sometimes maybe if I want to go someplace and I have a cooldown on my item X. Yeah I get annoyed. But otherwise flight is sorta meaningless. So how is it unbearable? What makes it unbearable?

In this thread I have heard that people don't like to quest and want to make it the shortest experience as they can. This include world quests. Isn't the content itself where the problem then lies for you? What would you fix about that type of content to make it fun? Because flight still does not change the content, it just makes it a little quicker.

We already have dangerous ground content full of elite packs. It's called dungeons and raids. Many of these don't even allow ground mounts.

These "dangerous" roaming elites or world bosses (like the Scarlets in Classic) are only a thing if you come into the patrol area unprepared, and are surprised and killed by them. As soon as you have learned how to handle these, the thrill is gone. And the only fundamental difference between skipping such mobs on the ground and skipping them while flying becomes the route you have to take, which in its core only means that you have to take a longer path on the ground than you would in the air.

I understand why Blizzard wants us to experience content on the ground at least once. I am OK with that. But as soon as a quest turns into a repeatable world quest, then it's not a unique experience anymore. Its reason of existence changes from being an experience (which is perfectly fulfilled in leveling content, where you get EXP from quests), to being one step in the meta-context of the end game (farming resources, gold, reputation, AP, gear upgrades etc.). The meta behind the content in the end game is totally different from the meta while reaching this end game.

And while no-flying in leveling content has the function to "keep you on tracks" of the story (which sometimes is good, and sometimes is too much railroading), its function in end game is merely a cockblocker, designed to keep you occupied a given time to reach a goal in the open world. No matter how much you overgear a quest, and how fast you finish it, you will have to travel a minimum amount of time EVERY TIME you want to reach the quest location from the nearest flight point. This is nothing more than a way to control our game time in a given content.

[Elim Garak]

We didn't get air travel until the 20th Century, but mountains have ALWAYS been that tall. Just ask Lewis and Clark.

Very relevant. Blizzard doesn't do real mountains though.

[Deleted]

Is the game not already smooth as fuck?

No it is not.
It is not when you are talking to a questgiver an a mob interrupts you, when you are farming herbs or minerals being interrupted by mobs, they do not kill you at all but it is not smooth, the ground mounts not being able to pass over a very small root in the floor or whatever is also not smooth, the whistle should open the minimap and let you select your destination, instead of tossing you in the proximity of the closer flightmaster, and so on and on.
He is right, you know, i would also not be interested in flying if all these things were solved, but they seem to be unable to provide a system as smooth as flying.

[Deleted]

No it is not.
It is not when you are talking to a questgiver an a mob interrupts you, when you are farming herbs or minerals being interrupted by mobs, they do not kill you at all but it is not smooth, the ground mounts not being able to pass over a very small root in the floor or whatever is also not smooth, the whistle should open the minimap and let you select your destination, instead of tossing you in the proximity of the closer flightmaster, and so on and on.
He is right, you know, i would also not be interested in flying if all these things were solved, but they seem to be unable to provide a system as smooth as flying.

The world you're advocating is boring and shallow. Luckily they'll never again follow those ideas.