Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Chickensoup23]

Ranked roughly in order of 1-10 (easiest to hardest)
-Joke tier-
Krosus

Look, I get what you're saying here. But Krosus is FAR from being "a joke" for 99% of guilds out there. You could be a very good player in a top 50 guild and I respect that, but the vast vast majority of raiders, even mythic raiders, didn't have a "joke" time defeating Krosus early in February.

[kamuimac]

Look, I get what you're saying here. But Krosus is FAR from being "a joke" for 99% of guilds out there. You could be a very good player in a top 50 guild and I respect that, but the vast vast majority of raiders, even mythic raiders, didn't have a "joke" time defeating Krosus early in February.

then why the f... are they progressing him instead botanist / spellblade ? its their fault for taking bad approach just because it worked for better guilds.

[KaPe]

then why the f... are they progressing him instead botanist / spellblade ? its their fault for taking bad approach just because it worked for better guilds.

Because none of them are "joke tier" either? All four are roughly similar in difficulty, in slightly different ways.

[Teri]

Tbh it's not so much the guilds are stuck, it's that more videos pop up that heroic titanforge loot is identical to mythic standard loot.

1st preach and now asmongold saying the same.

The difficulty isn't worth the time so I think much less guilds are actively pushing.

Imo all loot outside of mythic raids should cap titanforge at mythic -5 , so heroic gul'dan trinket could go to 905, while mythic could go 910-925,Heroic tier go to 900, mythic tier 905-925 etc, problem solved.


Yes you might say "but mythic getting 925 is unfair" , well, they actually could use the gear for mythic Tomb of Sarg push.

And while it would certainly make normal/heroic Tomb easier, it's not as strictly tuned, I can safely say that now you don't need mythic NH gear for Tomb Heroic.

For next tier such system should be in place for sure.

I dunno how mythic+ should fit in, but imo mythic raiding gear still should get better gear then that, so cap M+ at 5 below mythic raid loot as well.

Same goes for world quest/world boss/LFR etc by the way.

[ping-pong]

I for one dont. I merely want a steady progress through content as a semi-casual player. Wiping on the same boss for months isnt that much fun. It's not so much to do with us not being skilled enough, we simply dont have the time to get an army of max traited alts to switch between for optimal raid setups like the top-end guilds do, and we cannot eventually overpower the content with gear as we could before. Even those of us who play casually (no m+ farming, no farming all raid difficulties for titanforges) outgear mythic nighthold loot after clearing heroic a couple of times.

OK, so you don't have time and/or skill to beat the encounter. How is that a reason to nerf the content? There are people who have the time and the skill. That content is made for them. Accept the fact that you are not hardcore and don't do hardcore. Do semi-casual things in the game, of which there are plenty of.

[Kaizenberg]

'Cause.

Also, because "only few thousand people should get it" logic died with Vanilla Naxx - or Sunwell, at best. It was clealy stated by developers that even the hardest content is supposed to be seen by more than a tiny percentage of population. So your condescending "you don't deserve to be in Mythic" posts have been wrong for over a decade now. If you want more recent proof, look no further than ToV getting heavy nerfs (and item level boost), even though some people claimed it was perfectly balanced.

At best, I'll hit the second NH wall before 7.2 or maybe we'll be 6/10. If I get my Gul'dan kill, it will be post nerf due to new artifact traits. According to you, I don't deserve it. According to top guilds - well, they couldn't care less about me and guilds like mine. According to me, your opinion is meaningless except for me posturing and elitism. So it all works out in the end, I guess.

Context is important. That statement was made back when an abysmally low percentage of the population ever set foot in Naxxaramas. By the time Wrath hit Blizzard experimented with various difficulties per boss in Ulduar and then started creating different difficulty settings by Trial of the Crusader. I don't think that design statement still holds true as nearly everyone that plays World of Warcraft at max level has an opportunity to see raid content from LFR to Mythic mode. In recent years Blizzard defended that Mythic raiding is aimed to be challenging for organized guild progression hence why they do not allow cross-realm Mythic raiding while a raid is current content.

Besides, nerfs like what happened in ToV always inevitably happen towards the end of a patchs life cycle. ICC had the 5% scaling buff, other raid tiers had direct nerfs to bosses, EN had the gradual increase through getting more AK levels to realistically farm higher weapon traits. Nerfs to NH are coming but I personally believe they'll just touch Star Augur and Gul'dan slightly then let the gradual power increase from new traits lower the difficulty further.

[Deja Thoris]

OK, so you don't have time and/or skill to beat the encounter. How is that a reason to nerf the content? There are people who have the time and the skill. That content is made for them. Accept the fact that you are not hardcore and don't do hardcore. Do semi-casual things in the game, of which there are plenty of.

It should kinda be nerfed over time so that a reasonable number of people can see it. Thats how its always been whether its through a stacking zone nerf or legendary upgrades or whatever. That way people like you get to feel like special snowflakes for a while and more people can see it later (commercial reality).

[ping-pong]

'Cause.

Also, because "only few thousand people should get it" logic died with Vanilla Naxx - or Sunwell, at best. It was clealy stated by developers that even the hardest content is supposed to be seen by more than a tiny percentage of population. So your condescending "you don't deserve to be in Mythic" posts have been wrong for over a decade now. If you want more recent proof, look no further than ToV getting heavy nerfs (and item level boost), even though some people claimed it was perfectly balanced.

At best, I'll hit the second NH wall before 7.2 or maybe we'll be 6/10. If I get my Gul'dan kill, it will be post nerf due to new artifact traits. According to you, I don't deserve it. According to top guilds - well, they couldn't care less about me and guilds like mine. According to me, your opinion is meaningless except for me posturing and elitism. So it all works out in the end, I guess.

You don't seem to understand. Nerfing the Mythic to the ground doesn't make you beat the hardest encounter in the game. It is not hardest encounter in the game anymore. It doesn't deserve a name Mythic anymore. And you are not a mythic raider if you need so many nerfs to beat it. You needed more skill to beat heroic the first time then to beat mythic guldan after shitload of nerfs. You didn't progress. You didn't get better to beat the game. Game got easy for you to beat it. It's like saying a guy who cannot jump more then 10cm in the air should get to experience nba finals. Wrong.

It's not about numbers. It's irrelevant if a thousand or a million people beat it. As long as they all do the work and beat it in the similar conditions. You already have class and encounter guides written and recorded for you by the top guys. It's already a big boost. But hey, make the game incredibly easy so we get to see the "hardest content" in the game. Instead of stepping up, people cry for making things easier. Disgrace to gamers everywhere :P

[KaPe]

You don't seem to understand. Nerfing the Mythic to the ground doesn't make you beat the hardest encounter in the game. It is not hardest encounter in the game anymore. It doesn't deserve a name Mythic anymore. And you are not a mythic raider if you need so many nerfs to beat it. You needed more skill to beat heroic the first time then to beat mythic guldan after shitload of nerfs. You didn't progress. You didn't get better to beat the game. Game got easy for you to beat it. It's like saying a guy who cannot jump more then 10cm in the air should get to experience nba finals. Wrong.

It's not about numbers. It's irrelevant if a thousand or a million people beat it. As long as they all do the work and beat it in the similar conditions. You already have class and encounter guides written and recorded for you by the top guys. It's already a big boost. But hey, make the game incredibly easy so we get to see the "hardest content" in the game. Instead of stepping up, people cry for making things easier. Disgrace to gamers everywhere :P

Meanwhile, people like you cry after every single nerf to raid instance that happens. Doesn't matter if it had to be changed because everyone exploited boss mechanic in unintended way (like bugging out Mark of the Necromancer). Doesn't matter if it's done months after World First kills happened. Doesn't matter if the instance was shaping up to be cleared by less than 100 guilds.

No, you think you get to decide who's worthy, insult everyone ... well, I don't really know if they're below you, since I have no idea if you're 10/10M. You don't get to decide who's "worthy" of Mythic. Blizzard does. And when even the most hardcore guilds are getting tired of raiding, something is clearly wrong. Is it difficulty? Is it rewards? No one can be 100% certain, but opinions like yours aren't helping.

Not to mention that if you were really half as good as you believe you are, you'd be farming Gul'dan for weeks and preparing multiple alts for Tomb. Nerfs wouldn't kick you out of your grand throne, but merely make those preparations easier. Rankings won't change, those who killed it earlier will still be higher. Nerfs are part of raiding, and you screaming "They Are Not Worthy!" is not going to change that.

Not to mention that you act like as if the instance got thousands of nerfs already and yet those filthy casuals are crying for more. Newsflash - it didn't. Only Auriel did and she was hardly trivialized by the change.

[ping-pong]

Because you spent whole tier grinding m+ and/or WQs, roflstomping NH hc and then raiding NH m for 12hrs/week passing all the fucking loot because you already got retardforged loot from normal. People who are semi-hardcore may not be top 100 material but how many hours blizzard expect such guilds to wipe with no way of increasing power level from week to week before burning out or disbanding.
My whole gear is retardforged hc or m+. I have no more AP to grind. There's no more incentive to push further when your guild is stuck on bosses where a single mistakes wipes raid. Just log in to hc farm to roll for a 920 gear chance and logout. That's the current state of the game, are you enjoying it?

So you're saying that you already outgear the content and yet cannot beat it, even though you have a bunch of videos and written guides of what and how to do it? Guess what you (or your guildies) lack?

I enjoy the game, yes. I go hardcore until I have the content on farm. After that I don't play insane hours. No burnout that way. I set my goals, I achieve them, then relax until next challenge comes. If somehow I couldn't achieve them, I'd recognize it's beyond my skill and enjoy the more casual approach to the game.

I still cannot believe you guys are making the case for something that's meant to be the hardest to become easy so you can beat it. Life doesn't work that way. Yes, Blizzard has and probably will continue to cater to your entitled little opinions, but going through life with such attitude... man, are you gonna hit some real life walls... but that time there won't be nerfs.

- - - Updated - - -

Meanwhile, people like you cry after every single nerf to raid instance that happens. Doesn't matter if it had to be changed because everyone exploited boss mechanic in unintended way (like bugging out Mark of the Necromancer). Doesn't matter if it's done months after World First kills happened. Doesn't matter if the instance was shaping up to be cleared by less than 100 guilds.

No, you think you get to decide who's worthy, insult everyone ... well, I don't really know if they're below you, since I have no idea if you're 10/10M. You don't get to decide who's "worthy" of Mythic. Blizzard does. And when even the most hardcore guilds are getting tired of raiding, something is clearly wrong. Is it difficulty? Is it rewards? No one can be 100% certain, but opinions like yours aren't helping.

Not to mention that if you were really half as good as you believe you are, you'd be farming Gul'dan for weeks and preparing multiple alts for Tomb. Nerfs wouldn't kick you out of your grand throne, but merely make those preparations easier. Rankings won't change, those who killed it earlier will still be higher. Nerfs are part of raiding, and you screaming "They Are Not Worthy!" is not going to change that.

Not to mention that you act like as if the instance got thousands of nerfs already and yet those filthy casuals are crying for more. Newsflash - it didn't. Only Auriel did and she was hardly trivialized by the change.

Man, I don't care if everyone had mythic achievement. The problem is not with content or the title, it's with people's ability to acknowledge the reality. This is what I'm showing you. You did your best and failed. There's no shame in stepping down the difficulty. Instead of asking for nerfs, why don't you level and prepare multiple alts for tomb and be prepared this time around?

I'm not calling casuals filthy. I have no problem with even the most casual players. I'm calling people with high sense of entitlement entitled. I'm explaining that what you beat in the end of expansion is not hard, is not mythic. When you realize that, you will never want Blizzard to nerf anything that's not broken. Because you will understand that that's not the designed hardest content anymore, you're getting to beat the washed-up version of it. You will want to rise to the challenge. Instead of asking for nerfs, you will push your limits, you will become better. Don't take the easy way out, man, that's bad and it doesn't mean anything, it's value is 0.

I have friends who proudly linked WoD M achievements after bunch of nerfs. They beat the bosses with half of the raid being instructed of what the boss does in 5 minutes before the pull. Some players did dps that's basic requirement for HC. Yet they almost oneshot everything. How is that mythic? How is that achieving anything? You're beating the easy mode while being in the illusion that it's hardest. Be better then that.

[shrunken]

Has nobody considered the possibility that the community has simply been reduced such that those 2000 3/10 guilds are the guys who used to hover around rank 10,000 and were just never paid any mind before? This raid isn't nearly as hard as some from the past, and if anything it feels pretty appropriately tuned on Mythic.

The only great change to Mythic raiding that I see is that now you're praying to get the kind of applications that, in the past, you would have dismissed almost immediately. There's just not a lot of really good players and the fact that it's a 12 year old game with a declining population probably has a lot to do with that.

[Osmeric]

OK, so you don't have time and/or skill to beat the encounter. How is that a reason to nerf the content?

There is one and only one reason to nerf content: if doing so will improve the commercial performance of the game. This is the same ultimate justification for any change to the game.

Will nerfing Mythic improve the commercial performance of the game? Arguably it will, if enough of those who are blocked are sufficiently unhappy to quit (in particular, if enough of their guilds implode leading to quits.)

Of course, once one admits that "MOAR DIFFICULT" is not necessarily the road to commercial success, the difficulty fetishists might fear we've stepped onto a slippery slope. And we have.

[Bullarkie]

I'm sure they have a target number of players they would like to see the conent and I don't think this number requires them to raid 7 days a week and do split runs. They've already stated they've goofed and "Tomb will be different". That said, we're a 2 night 5/10M (Botanis/Krosus) guild. I just hope we have enough time to clear Nighthold before Tomb comes out.

[kamuimac]

I'm sure they have a target number of players they would like to see the conent and I don't think this number requires them to raid 7 days a week and do split runs. They've already stated they've goofed and "Tomb will be different". That said, we're a 2 night 5/10M (Botanis/Krosus) guild. I just hope we have enough time to clear Nighthold before Tomb comes out.

if you are 5/10 now you will be at least 9/10 in couple of weeks

i think people are severly underestimmating how big the nerf to NH will be with new traits

[Bullarkie]

if you are 5/10 now you will be at least 9/10 in couple of weeks

i think people are severly underestimmating how big the nerf to NH will be with new traits

I'm hoping so. We killed Krosus in 2 nights (~6 hours). We wiped the first night then came back with a solid soak plan and got him down. We had some tank issues and Botanist took us about 3 weeks (18 hours). We have some good Rogues and DH's so I'm hopeful for a quick Tichondrius and I'd like to kill Spell Blade before they nerf the WA everyone is using.

[KaPe]

I'm hoping so. We killed Krosus in 2 nights (~6 hours). We wiped the first night then came back with a solid soak plan and got him down. We had some tank issues and Botanist took us about 3 weeks (18 hours). We have some good Rogues and DH's so I'm hopeful for a quick Tichondrius and I'd like to kill Spell Blade before they nerf the WA everyone is using.

I don't know what "everyone" is using for Auriel, but I'd more worried about Augur. It's a much harder boss and the incoming addon changes will make him even more difficult - including people who already killed him.

[Sarevokcz]

if you are 5/10 now you will be at least 9/10 in couple of weeks

i think people are severly underestimmating how big the nerf to NH will be with new traits

well, how big? AFAIK, we are getting refund on from 35 to 54 traits, but the initial 1/1 is only 10% and ranks are so expensive we can afford like 3 or 4 traits only from the refund, which is disappointing, since for example mine new 4/4 is zero dps on ST, so I dont see how thats a buff from the get go and with expensive traits, it will take time before decent AK kicks in and we get the lost 4.5% back

[kamuimac]

well, how big? AFAIK, we are getting refund on from 35 to 54 traits, but the initial 1/1 is only 10% and ranks are so expensive we can afford like 3 or 4 traits only from the refund, which is disappointing, since for example mine new 4/4 is zero dps on ST, so I dont see how thats a buff from the get go and with expensive traits, it will take time before decent AK kicks in and we get the lost 4.5% back

see this is perfect exmple of people not even trying to find out the gains - you are not loosing 4,5 % - you are actualy gaining 0,5 % - check how new traits will work .

and ofc it will take time - but it will also give you something to work for in those 3-4 months before tomb opens.

[Sarevokcz]

see this is perfect exmple of people not even trying to find out the gains - you are not loosing 4,5 % - you are actualy gaining 0,5 % - check how new traits will work .

and ofc it will take time - but it will also give you something to work for in those 3-4 months before tomb opens.

I DID try to find out, only to find both calculators wrong and loads of mixed info about actual numbers and Im not downloading PTR, since i have download limits, thats why I aksed...

[ping-pong]

There is one and only one reason to nerf content: if doing so will improve the commercial performance of the game. This is the same ultimate justification for any change to the game.

Will nerfing Mythic improve the commercial performance of the game? Arguably it will, if enough of those who are blocked are sufficiently unhappy to quit (in particular, if enough of their guilds implode leading to quits.)

Of course, once one admits that "MOAR DIFFICULT" is not necessarily the road to commercial success, the difficulty fetishists might fear we've stepped onto a slippery slope. And we have.

Yes, I'm not questioning Blizzard's motives for nerfing content. They have to, because that's how gaming community functions today: if it's hard on hardest setting, it needs nerf. I'm talking to the gamers... I genuinely cannot understand satisfaction of beating Mythic bosses when they are nerfed to be easier then heroic version on the first week. We as a community are getting more and more spoiled and we have to take responsibility.