No sense of progression in Nighthold - Preach video

[Deleted]

He is essentially exposing himself and mythic raiders, as only doing mythic for the gear. He wants better gear from mythic so that he can overpower it. He wants to overpower it because he cba with challenge, because its fundamentally not "fun" to spend 12 hours a week doing bosses where one mistake equals a wipe.

And here we thought mythic raiding was about challenging content, and its obviously not. Blizzard designed the bosses and the gear, so that you are challenged for months on end, but that is not what they want. In a RNG based system, they can still get far better gear than anyone else, but its not good enough.

The only good thing about challenging content (for people like him) is that it keeps people at bay from even doing it, but once they are over that hurdle they have no desire to overcome it again, they want 980 itemlvl gear so they can stomp the whole place.

The entire premise that these are hardcore people who take their craft (no pun intended) seriously, as these cyber athletes who finesse their play is laughable. Instead its largely people substituting real life accomplishments for virtual ones, to get some recognition from other likeminded addicts.

The best thing about mythic raiding is that its difficulty inflates the value of the gear you can get from it, not the actual challenge. The challenge is annoying but its neccessary to filter out the casuals, semi hardcores and everyone else.


I dont care why you play videogames, but at least stop bullshitting about wanting a challenge, when you play a fucking MMO. If you want a challenge go play more skill intensive games, such as..any other genre. This community is full of bullshit artists trying to pump their fragile egos with virtual loot, at least be honest about it. Its all that matters, and its all that ever mattered in this game.

[globenstine]

I don't know exactly how he sourced his graphs, but my guild's killtimes have gone down significantly as we farmed.

The ilevel gradient, ap farming, titanforging, and 2 difficulties worth of easy tier have certainly frontloaded a lot of the throughput gain, but not to the extent of his graphs. I suspect that we're seeing fully SoO geared raids being compared to half nighthold geared raids.

how so? if the avg ilvl of your raid is lets say..905 you already vastly outgear the raid. any other expansion with the entire raid 5 or so ilvls over the raid drops you would be speed killing bosses in under 2 minutes. at item level 900 you should be killing at least the first three at that pace. i dont like much of what preach does and says a lot of the time, but he makes some good points here. it is a much more effective use of your time to grind heroic for upgrades and carry over lockouts forever in mythic. i mean i got 3 910s in heroic in one day. there have been several days when heroic has dropped multiple 920s for my raid. if you can get that out of heroic, mythic loot becomes meaningless. all of these issues are stemming from two things that shouldn't be in the game, titanforging and paragon points in artifact weapons. the fact is, the raid is tuned around everyone having 54 and having at least two legendary items after the first three bosses. Ion himself even admitted to this. if you think most of it is just huff and puff. you should watch some of the top guilds streams. method still wipes on krosus and botanist all the time and i dont mean once or twice.

[RoKPaNda]

Ruining titanforge for 98% of players in order to cater to the 2% that does Mythic raiding would be an awful design decision, but then it wouldn't be the first time that Blizzard catered to those players. TF is good for the rest of the game, so who cares about that tiny 2% of raiders with zero self control?

how so? if the avg ilvl of your raid is lets say..905 you already vastly outgear the raid. any other expansion with the entire raid 5 or so ilvls over the raid drops you would be speed killing bosses in under 2 minutes. at item level 900 you should be killing at least the first three at that pace. i dont like much of what preach does and says a lot of the time, but he makes some good points here. it is a much more effective use of your time to grind heroic for upgrades and carry over lockouts forever in mythic. i mean i got 3 910s in heroic in one day. there have been several days when heroic has dropped multiple 920s for my raid. if you can get that out of heroic, mythic loot becomes meaningless. all of these issues are stemming from two things that shouldn't be in the game, titanforging and paragon points in artifact weapons. the fact is, the raid is tuned around everyone having 54 and having at least two legendary items after the first three bosses. Ion himself even admitted to this. if you think most of it is just huff and puff. you should watch some of the top guilds streams. method still wipes on krosus and botanist all the time and i dont mean once or twice.

If you read Reddit at all he's already been proven wrong. He just pulled his numbers entirely out of his ass. He and Asmongold have done nothing but whine this entire expansion. The artifact weapons you're right about, but titanforging is one of the better ideas they've come up with in recent years. Preach just whines about it because it makes his epeen shrink that on rare occasion someone might have better gear than his.

[kamuimac]

Ruining titanforge for 98% of players in order to cater to the 2% that does Mythic raiding would be an awful design decision, but then it wouldn't be the first time that Blizzard catered to those players. TF is good for the rest of the game, so who cares about that tiny 2% of raiders with zero self control?



If you read Reddit at all he's already been proven wrong. He just pulled his numbers entirely out of his ass. He and Asmongold have done nothing but whine this entire expansion. The artifact weapons you're right about, but titanforging is one of the better ideas they've come up with in recent years. Preach just whines about it because it makes his epeen shrink that on rare occasion someone might have better gear than his.

nobody thats why blizzard should simply remove mythic and get rid of this toxic part of community in one clean cut

its pretty clear that the only ones not happy with legion are mythic crybabies so blizzard shoudl get rid of them and keep 99% of community that are more then happy with current state - its really obvious solution to all this crying.

[bromanbro]

Mythic should be at gear cap. Other difficulties just have a rare chance to TF to it.

[NihilSustinet]

The things discussed in this video, as well as asmongold's similar video are pretty much why i quit raiding at 5/10M

[Deleted]

Now people wants a raid well tuned, nice difficulty curved, open to all classes, composition friendly, with a nice amount of trash, with minimun 10 bosses, with engaging mechanics, with a great graphic, not heavy for the computers engines, with challening bosses, with not too hard bosses, with dps check bosses, without "wall" bosses, where you can choose your "boss path" AND FAST TO FARM raid.

Okay.

[stevenho]

After 1 kill bosses should stay dead and loot should be coming from weekly cache.
Aint nobody got time for rekills.

[Kalador]

1. Still not a common occurrence.
2. I literally just said that.
3. And finally, no; getting TF items doesn't greatly increase with difficulty.

The way TF work is the one +5 ilvl roll happen, if this is good than another one happen till it roll nothing and it stop, this mean its way more ez to get a 895 heroic DoS to 910 than a LFR one to 910. The base chance of the roll is actually pretty high.

Also it's true that gear wise NH is not rewarding, most of the people i play with who are 3 to 5/10 in mythic are avg ilvl equipped 905-908, this is above the ilvl that mythic drops... there is almost no upgrade in mythic right now for people who have played this expac from release and farm M+/ H raids

[kamuimac]

The way TF work is the one +5 ilvl roll happen, if this is good than another one happen till it roll nothing and it stop, this mean its way more ez to get a 895 heroic DoS to 910 than a LFR one to 910. The base chance of the roll is actually pretty high.

Also it's true that gear wise NH is not rewarding, most of the people i play with who are 3 to 5/10 in mythic are avg ilvl equipped 905-908, this is above the ilvl that mythic drops... there is almost no upgrade in mythic right now for people who have played this expac from release and farm M+/ H raids

and ? you solution would mean that those people would be stuck on 1/10 instead 5/10 mythic if they didnt have additional loot letting them overpower those bosses - not sure how that would help but wwhatever

[Echocho]

It's weird that they didn't cap titanforging at heroic raid iLvls or something. Running a brand new raid and getting mostly sidegrades isn't super exciting.

[Kalador]

and ? you solution would mean that those people would be stuck on 1/10 instead 5/10 mythic if they didnt have additional loot letting them overpower those bosses - not sure how that would help but wwhatever

The problem is bigger tho.

Before everyone showed up to mythic with heroic gear, mythic was tuned around that. Meaning it was very very hard for people in almost hero gear (top world guild with couple of split run) and as time passes more and more people would get gear from the first few mythic boss, more optimized piece in hero and the raid would become easier for average mythic guild, the more you progressed into the place, the better gear you would get and it would slowly make the raid easier... Everyone was happy, top guild had the very hard instance they wanted in the 1st month and more average mythic guild could clear the place in 2-3-4 month with more gear.

Now we are in a situation were you can be in almost full mythic level gear the day of mythic release. Hardcore mythic guild were 900 avg, full 54 trait, and bis legendary when gate opened, if the raid was tuned around hero gear it would have been destroyed in a day and people would have QQ... the problem is that average mythic guild are reaching that level of power around now, 2 month into the place. That even with this gear most of the boss are extremely hard and that there is almost no way to get a good increase in ilvl past 905 in mythic. The most efficient way to get gear is no longer to farm the boss you've already killed in mythic but to spam mythic + and Hero NH in hope of TF and most of the time you get nothing good. Most people still don't have BiS legendary combo 2.

I remember the first 2 month of mythic HfC i probably got a good +10-15 ivl avg in gear, in the last 2 month i probably uped my ilvl by 3 avg equipped.

--- edit ----

It's insane how hardly tuned mythic is. We are 2 month in and don't even think about bringing a normal 4 healer comp to krosus cause you are never going to make the dps required...

[RoKPaNda]

It's weird that they didn't cap titanforging at heroic raid iLvls or something. Running a brand new raid and getting mostly sidegrades isn't super exciting.

Mythic raiding itself isn't super exciting, that's why only 2% of the players run it.

Anyway, Preach and Asmongold are whining, what else is new? That's all they've done in recent years. Titanforge may be bad for that 2%, but it's fantastic and fun for the other 98% so it's fine.

[Deleted]

Now people wants a raid well tuned, nice difficulty curved, open to all classes, composition friendly, with a nice amount of trash, with minimun 10 bosses, with engaging mechanics, with a great graphic, not heavy for the computers engines, with challening bosses, with not too hard bosses, with dps check bosses, without "wall" bosses, where you can choose your "boss path" AND FAST TO FARM raid.

Okay.

That's why they're paid the big bucks to make a quality game.

[Kalador]

Now people wants a raid well tuned, nice difficulty curved, open to all classes, composition friendly, with a nice amount of trash, with minimun 10 bosses, with engaging mechanics, with a great graphic, not heavy for the computers engines, with challening bosses, with not too hard bosses, with dps check bosses, without "wall" bosses, where you can choose your "boss path" AND FAST TO FARM raid.

Okay.

Yup we pay about 150$ a year + expac for that, yes most wow player are very hard customer, but wow is far from a cheap game and most people expect quality and well thought out shit when they have payed more than 1000$ on a game over the years...

[KaPe]

Anyway, Preach and Asmongold are whining, what else is new? That's all they've done in recent years. Titanforge may be bad for that 2%, but it's fantastic and fun for the other 98% so it's fine.

Oh please, "98%" wouldn't even notice if their items would cap at/below Mythic raiding level. It would still be a huge buff to item quality, except it wouldn't make rewards from hardest content seem laughable in comparison.

[Deleted]

Are people that dumb that they have forgotten that before we didnt have warforged or titanforged items from dungeons and especially not m+ items? So now half of the guilds are progressing with way closes ilvl to drops in NH mythic than they were for example in HFC mythic or MOP mythic.

You do realise that is big change in ilvl and that solely affects the time to kill bosses?

[shonist]

I used to like preach, but after playing the legion beta after watching his video about tanking. I decided he is totally wrong about the game OR he has another PoV that doesnt match mine so i shouldnt care.
He convinced me that tanking was horrible and when i got the beta key i had a blast tanking and i mained tanking since launch (almost).

- - - Updated - - -

Yup we pay about 150$ a year + expac for that, yes most wow player are very hard customer, but wow is far from a cheap game and most people expect quality and well thought out shit when they have payed more than 1000$ on a game over the years...

lol i dont pay for that. and this shiet is fcking cheap.

[Deleted]

Yup we pay about 150$ a year + expac for that, yes most wow player are very hard customer, but wow is far from a cheap game and most people expect quality and well thought out shit when they have payed more than 1000$ on a game over the years...

Because FAST TO FARM = a quality raid.... cmon guys really? Killing bosses in 30 seconds is a "must have"? Why do you even bother killing them at that point? Because "it's fun"? You can kill Hogger in one spell, it must be fun!
I can understand everything, but this is on a whole other level.
This is whining for the sake of whining.

[KaPe]

Because FAST TO FARM = a quality raid.... cmon guys really? Killing bosses in 30 seconds is a "must have"? Why do you even bother killing them at that point? Because "it's fun"? You can kill Hogger in one spell, it must be fun!
I can understand everything, but this is on a whole other level.
This is whining for the sake of whining.

You only get to that point after long farm time and being almost fully geared up. It's a process of improving your character and seeing the actual results. Being rewarded for killing bosses by making them easier with each successive kill - without relying on Titanforged luck.