Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood

[Binaris]

Except for Scholar.

As a Scholar, I can summon my fairy, swap into Cleric Stance and sit there while my fairy does the heavy lifting. The risk is far, far lower as a Scholar than as a White Mage or Astrologian.

This is another reason it's clunky.

That is not clunky, that is differing class design. The is risk to the reward for white mages and astros early on, much less later on. Classes need to be different, homogenization is boring.

OR... its the reason scholars are probably in for some sort of nerf to fairy healing while in cleric stance when Stormblood hits.

I hope not. At least now I have the fairy partner to heal with, They nerf fairys ill be stuck solo healing when they just have the sch swap to summoner.

[TirielWoW]

OR... its the reason scholars are probably in for some sort of nerf to fairy healing while in cleric stance when Stormblood hits. Just because Scholars are less impacted by cleric stance due to fairy doing the "heavy lifting" doesnt mean cleric stance is "clunky". it just means someone else (the fairy) is performing your role (healing) for you so being in cleric stance doesn't impact the survival of the party as much.

In order for it to work, you still need to actively control the fairy. The difference is, it's much smoother to DPS as a Scholar than it is to DPS as. White Mage or Astrologian.

I really don't care if this is going to make people call me a whiner or a scrub for saying this, but the combination of Cleric Stance and the stupidly long GCD are why I find DPSing as a healer so unfun in XIV.

I DPS as a healer all the damn time in WoW, and it's smooth and engaging and I really feel like I'm making a difference - I get a lot of visual "rewards" for the spells I cast. I don't have to worry about a spell that locks me out from doing effective healing to contribute DPS in my raid groups. And that's a major reason WoW healing is just plain more fun right now (since they finally made mana an actual thing for most classes in WoW).

I want to like healing in XIV. The Mana model is awesome. But this DPS shit? Is about as engaging and fun as a root canal. I'd like to see that change. I'd like to see DPS being something that's fun (and doesn't feel like an immensely stressful choice) to do when I have nothing else to do.

And, no, I don't care if it means Healer DPS is nerfed. By SE's own definition, Healers are there to heal, not DPS. Any DPS should be gravy anyway.

[Wrecktangle]

Again, "clunky" does not mean "I don't like this," which is plainly how you are using it. It's not cumbersome. It's not clunky. They'll likely address it with their changes to cross class abilities by adding it to the role specific pool. It's not like there's anything else you'd want to take anyway because cross class options are poor to begin with. Whine all you want, but your "contributions" are just meaningless noise and show you don't know what you're saying. This is why I normally don't bother discussing design for MMOs with people. There's not a sensible thought to be had with most of them. But hey, I've said my bit and I'm done. If it's really that important to you to feel like you've "won," I'll leave you to it.

Please tell me you're joking. You can't possibly be this terrible at defending your argument. This has to be a joke. You literally have destroyed your own argument 3 separate times.

• First the I never make a mistake except when I make a mistake bit.
• Then you say that something is a cross class skill that is mandatory for all healers in all situations, but that's not clunky. Sounds like it should be baseline to me.
• THEN you go on to say they are updating it in the revamp (hint: if they're revamping it, it's because its clunky).

Every single time you posted in this discussion you've contradicted yourself let along with me further dissecting your argument.

I was very clear when I defined the word clunky. You've done a grand total of 0 to debunk my definition. If it wasn't clunky why would they be changing it?

Meaningless noise? Are you sure you're not projecting your own insecurities here? I'd love for you to elaborate that "I don't know what I am saying" piece.

Its funny I've had sensible conversations with quite a few people on here. Ironic that you seem to have an issue with having discussions with most people. I think the concept of common denominator is applicable here...

Let me take a moment to illustrate why you are wrong in every way. That your definition is nothing more than whether you see a big number on your screen and not on whether you actually do more damage.

Life surge= Guaranteed crit on next ability. which is a 360 potency x1.5 crit multiplier.
Power surge= 50% increase "thats a crit amount" on next jump but the ability can actually still crit. Still seems pretty impactful but because its not a crit ermahgerd no impact

Blood for blood= 30% increase on EVERYTHING for 20 seconds. This cooldown blos everythign out of the water, comes with a damage taken penalty because of it. But no impact because it is not a crit?

Your definition of impactful, seems to have nothing to do with anything other that your perception of damage. It does not take the big picture into consideration about dps.

Just so you know I played FF14 with damage numbers turned off. Now that you know that your entire argument here just collapsed pretty hard. I don't care about what numbers pop up. I made that very clear that I want to FEEL more powerful when pressing cooldown buttons. Seeing bigger numbers doesn't do that for me. You'd know that if you read my post.

Life Surge isn't the best example so that's my fault for opening with that. I should have used Blood of the Dragon, but I see I used that example with someone else and not you. The premise is that pushing this cooldown has visible impact to your power. You push the button and feel stronger instantly. You gain access to new abilities, increased damage, etc. I gave a very clear example in BNS that you failed to acknowledge. I also forgot to mention that increasing crit increases procs in BNS so there's even further power interaction there.

I want to make it very clear that I understand that these cooldowns increase overall damage. That is not the center of this discussion. It is that they aren't fun to push. Increasing damage is but one small facet of the puzzle. We have all these damage cooldowns that aren't fun to push. I'd like to see them condensed considerably to 1 or 2 specific cooldowns that are fun.

In regards to healers cleric stance. At level 15, yes this means you have no opinion on the subject worth repeating. You are like a child talking about things you know nothing about. Cleric is not something that really shines until you have the toolset to really use it. At 15 you don't even have a HoT. Most healers find it a struggle to use it pre-50 because it really shines after you have the tools to hot up the tank and then take a 10-15 second window to dps. No one expects pre-50 for healers to really be dpsing. Anyone that does, knows about as little as you do on the subject.

I'll tell you what. Go ask a game developer if they think a level 15 player who is just picking up a mechanic if their feedback is useless. All feedback is valuable if it is well presented and founded in logic. Does Cleric stance change at level 50 or 60 that I am not aware of? Does it change or impact the way your abilities work then that it doesnt do now? No it doesn't. It functions identically I just have more tools on each side of the fence. That doesn't disqualify my analysis of the mechanic.

I think you are too sidetracked to understand the genesis of this discussion. It was that CS isn't a fun button to push.

[xerus]

Is that an issue to you? If so why? Does that mean that I am less than you in some way? Does that mean that my discussion is useless or unwanted?

It's more that people should be aware that your point of view is a year and 15+ game updates out of date. Granted there hasn't been a ton that has changed in the last year but the fact that you have no actual investment in what you are arguing is telling.

[StrawberryZebra]

Again, "clunky" does not mean "I don't like this," which is plainly how you are using it. It's not cumbersome. It's not clunky.

While I am in favour of the current Cleric Stance design, even I have to concede that it could be done better. It's something you'll be toggling on and off every couple of seconds, and the player will, as a result, be pressing the button every couple of seconds too. Removing that keypress and replacing it with something better than a DPS mode toggle would be an improvement for healers overall. We've had several sugestions with merit in this thread alone on how we could improve it. Everything from replacing it entirely to fully embracing it as a true Stance or Shapeshift like ability. Something that flows much better than the current one does.

Perhaps "clunky" isn't how you would describe it, but I don't think the term has been overused to the point that it's lost all meaning. Maybe you'd prefer to call it "awkward", or "Clumsy?". Perhaps even something more political like "Alternative Smoothness"? Regardless of the language used, you do still understand the usage of it in this context. It's not "I don't like it", rather "I find having to press this button every few seconds uninteresting and the game could be better off without it".

[StrawberryZebra]

I wouldn't call it any of those things. I have no problem whatsoever with Cleric Stance as it currently exists. It's fine. If they change it, it will probably still be fine, but there's no reason to be bothered by the current iteration either. This is the same sort of garbage that led us down the road of constant pruning in WoW.

But even if we keep the current implementation, it could certainly be presented to the player better. Maybe give it it's own unique UI elements, firstly to make it easier to keybind and secondly to serve as a reminder to players that they're in Cleric Stance.

I personally would love it to function similar to the Stances WoW Warriors had, where activating it changes your hotbar over and locks you out of your heals. It would go a long way to freeing up keybinding space, and would also be a very clear indicator to players who might not be confident switching in and out of it all the time. Just because "it's fine" in it's current form doesn't mean there's not plenty of room for improvement.

[Aruhen]

Just so you know I played FF14 with damage numbers turned off. Now that you know that your entire argument here just collapsed pretty hard. I don't care about what numbers pop up. I made that very clear that I want to FEEL more powerful when pressing cooldown buttons. Seeing bigger numbers doesn't do that for me. You'd know that if you read my post.

Life Surge isn't the best example so that's my fault for opening with that. I should have used Blood of the Dragon, but I see I used that example with someone else and not you. The premise is that pushing this cooldown has visible impact to your power. You push the button and feel stronger instantly. You gain access to new abilities, increased damage, etc. I gave a very clear example in BNS that you failed to acknowledge. I also forgot to mention that increasing crit increases procs in BNS so there's even further power interaction there.

I want to make it very clear that I understand that these cooldowns increase overall damage. That is not the center of this discussion. It is that they aren't fun to push. Increasing damage is but one small facet of the puzzle. We have all these damage cooldowns that aren't fun to push. I'd like to see them condensed considerably to 1 or 2 specific cooldowns that are fun.

I actually really like the way SMN play in FF14. You use cooldowns and abilities and eventually you reach a point were two of your strongest abilities unlock. Well Ruin 3 is open to you 24/7 but its mana cost is huge but during this "burst phase" its reduced and then at the end you finish off with Deathflare. I really enjoy that sorta design compared to say BRD.

Demonology Warlocks used to work in a similar way until Blizzard fucked us over by removing Metamorphosis. You basically built a bar up by doing your rotation that enabled you to use Metamorphosis but the duration was dependent on how much of the resource you accumulated. This was also nice because you were able to spend a bit of the resource to have it up for a few seconds during an add burst phase. On top of that just like Summoners in FFXIV you unlocked a few new abilities that you were able to play around with.

Is this sorta what you're alluding to?

[StrawberryZebra]

If they want to make a stance specific bar, I wouldn't object, but neither would I use it. It's already plenty easy to keybind and it's already extremely apparent when you're in Cleric Stance, thanks to the distinct and obvious red buff. If we want to talk about freeing up keybinds, there are far better places to start, like Stone III, which could function just as well by being nothing more than a passive that buffs Stone II.

Despite it being "easy" to tell when you're in Cleric Stance, I do see people trying to heal with it all the time. I wiped yesterday in the Sunken Temple because our healer forgot to turn it off. Having a hotbar swap makes it very noticable when you're in it, and having a separate UI element makes it very easy to find if you're a clicker or playing on a controller. It's an easy way to improve on Cleric Stance's presention to the player without changing it's functionality.

Healers spend more time than most fighting with the UI, so anything that helps improve that without layering more complexity on top is a good thing. Just because you wouldn't use it doens't mean it wouldn't be an improvement for a large number of players.

I would also be in favour of spells ranking up through traits as you hit the right level too. Not only would it free up a couple of extra abilities, but it would save you having to shuffle them around on your hotbar everytime you did a lower level dungeon or FATE. It's a nice low effort QOL change.

[Deleted]

I have yet to understand how there can be people that do not consider the cleric stance "clunky".
Having to press it on/off every few seconds, in addition to losing the ability to do de/reactivate it if you press it one to many times is basically the definition of a clunky skilldesign.
In addition to that, I still don't get it why it has to exist.

What exactly is it adding to the game? "Excitement"? Because you can fuck up at any moment? That will only lead to fewer players doing it...

If I want to do damage, I can only do so by using damage skills anyway ... why do I have to press a button first so I don't *waste* my mana by doing that? If they are so keen on the "healers should heal" thing, they should make sure that there is enough to heal, just like there is nearly always something there to deal damage on.

Is pressing Cleric stance the fun thing, or being able to both heal and deal some damage and getting (or trying to get) the best out of the 2 things?

[Gibblewink]

Clunky? It is extremely simple and serves the purpose it is designed for with neither resource or GCD cost. The only issue I see with it is the accidental reactivation when trying to turn it off, which could be handled by a short cd upon going out. You can do damge without activating CS, you just do less but in stead retain your full healing ability.
I doubt there are many people who sit around Limsa having fits of orgasmic joy just from pressing CS, but handling the ability properly so as to deal maximum damage without sacrificing healing at crucial times (and as a consequence sacrificing a few party members), THAT can be fun. And really pressing ONE button isn't all that complicated.

For those who truly loathe it or or are still insecure of their handling of it, CS can be ignored completely without interfering with your primary task: Healing party members. Those who are willing to deal with it, mastering the use CAN be an interesting challenge.

If anything I'd say that constitutes elegant design.

[RohanV]

One thing that I find interesting about Cleric Stance is that it is a 4-state system, even though it looks like a 2-state system at first glance. The two transition states are crucial to the gameplay.

An existing system that is very close is the THM Fire/Ice system, if the only way to switch between states was Transpose.

So perhaps extending the Fire/Ice to a Heals/Damage system would work. From baseline, casting a heal gives you buff which boosts healing and decreases damage. Casting a damage spell does the opposite. In the healing state, it takes 2 damage spells to get you to the damage state. From damage it takes you 2 healing spells to get to the healing state. Cleric stance becomes Transpose, which immediately flips you from one state to the other, but has a cooldown.

This system would be cleaner, because there would be no such thing as forgetting Cleric Stance. Simply casting healing spells puts you in the proper state eventually. You would lose the ability to do low damage without leaving the heal state, though.

[Acidbaron]

Hello all, i played this game for a bit and with the new expansion i read an interesting feature or change.

"Changes to the battle system" i Always found the base game a bit slow, what do i have to understand under this change? If there's any clear cut info on it. Rather ask more seasoned players to give a short break down if someone is able to do so.

[Binaris]

Hello all, i played this game for a bit and with the new expansion i read an interesting feature or change.

"Changes to the battle system" i Always found the base game a bit slow, what do i have to understand under this change? If there's any clear cut info on it. Rather ask more seasoned players to give a short break down if someone is able to do so.

There is little solid info out there at this time. They will not be removing the 2.5 second GCD. That is part of the gameplay because at max level the off gcd skils weave in specifically speeding up combat a bit. Im sure people will argue it, but if it was really an issue that it was slow to the point of causing the game to be boringly easy, than there wouldnt be so many shit dps.

As for changes, there will be a fair ammount of class chnages. skills being merges, cross class being reworked. I guess they see that the cross class system barely even offers an illusion of choice and plan to streamline it. eliminating a lot of stacked cooldowns from other classes as well as combining skills. Overall we dont know much and wont know much. SE keeps thier expansion info well secured unlike other games where you know everything prior to release.

[Acidbaron]

There is little solid info out there at this time. They will not be removing the 2.5 second GCD. That is part of the gameplay because at max level the off gcd skils weave in specifically speeding up combat a bit. Im sure people will argue it, but if it was really an issue that it was slow to the point of causing the game to be boringly easy, than there wouldnt be so many shit dps.

As for changes, there will be a fair ammount of class chnages. skills being merges, cross class being reworked. I guess they see that the cross class system barely even offers an illusion of choice and plan to streamline it. eliminating a lot of stacked cooldowns from other classes as well as combining skills. Overall we dont know much and wont know much. SE keeps thier expansion info well secured unlike other games where you know everything prior to release.

Okay and as for there being terrible DPS, i don't rate MMO players among those who hold a high skill cap due to the rather easy entry level and leveling content (not just this mmo but most mmo's in general).

I'll keep a look out, kinda bored with WoW as it stands and not looking into anything to occupy me full time (retired mythic raider). Is samurai and red mage going to be something available only as an advanced job at level 60? But fair enough it's still a few months away might pick up a combo deal of the base and previous expansion and try it out again, although it does suffer the same pitfalls as most FF games kinda boring till you get higher up.

[Wrecktangle]

It's more that people should be aware that your point of view is a year and 15+ game updates out of date. Granted there hasn't been a ton that has changed in the last year but the fact that you have no actual investment in what you are arguing is telling.

To be fair here you literally just said that my POV is a year out, but granted nothing has changed. You kinda defeated yourself there, you also inadvertently helped my point by saying in a years time and 15+ updates nothings really changed...

You may not have seen a few of my other posts, but I love FF14. I am very invested that's why you see me here posting about it and discussing random design elements and ideas. I was disheartened with a lot of aspects of HW and loved a lot of aspects.

I actually really like the way SMN play in FF14. You use cooldowns and abilities and eventually you reach a point were two of your strongest abilities unlock. Well Ruin 3 is open to you 24/7 but its mana cost is huge but during this "burst phase" its reduced and then at the end you finish off with Deathflare. I really enjoy that sorta design compared to say BRD.

Is this sorta what you're alluding to?

I think you're on the right track. SMN is a very good example. When you pop your trance and get ready to deathflare is there a single SMN main on here who isn't having fun at that exact moment? I'd likely say that 99% of people would agree with me here.

When you push Raging Strikes do you have fun? I think most people would say no. That's the point. We don't need these abilities in the game where you push a button and nothing actually happens. Sure numbers get bigger, but no actual gameplay changes occur. You don't gain anything new. You don't change your decision process. Your gameplay doesn't change.

The reason I don't like CS is that you don't gain anything new and you don't change your decision process. You already made a decision to DPS (or heal), you merely have to push a button that has limitations on it to be able to execute your decision. That's bad gameplay design.

One thing that I find interesting about Cleric Stance is that it is a 4-state system, even though it looks like a 2-state system at first glance. The two transition states are crucial to the gameplay.

An existing system that is very close is the THM Fire/Ice system, if the only way to switch between states was Transpose.

So perhaps extending the Fire/Ice to a Heals/Damage system would work. From baseline, casting a heal gives you buff which boosts healing and decreases damage. Casting a damage spell does the opposite. In the healing state, it takes 2 damage spells to get you to the damage state. From damage it takes you 2 healing spells to get to the healing state. Cleric stance becomes Transpose, which immediately flips you from one state to the other, but has a cooldown.

This system would be cleaner, because there would be no such thing as forgetting Cleric Stance. Simply casting healing spells puts you in the proper state eventually. You would lose the ability to do low damage without leaving the heal state, though.

This is actually very similar to what I originally proposed that started this entire discussion. The difference is that your proposal works in tandem instead of opposite of what mine did. Mine was healing buffs DPS, and DPSing buffs next heal.

3 quick points:

These "states" impact the values how exactly? So if I'm at baseline and I cast a DPS spell I gain +x% dmg, and -x% healing right? Then again is +2x, -2x? What happens at this point now that I am in DPS stance? Do I continue stacking to say +5x, -5x? +-Infinitex? Does being in a "state' offer any other gameplay changes/bonuses?

What happens in the above scenario now if I need to heal? does it countdown per stack or is it always 2 spells to swap states?

Lastly, your Cleric Stance cooldown I'd like to see improved. It works, its functional, but its boring. Pushing it should do something in addition to swapping states. Makes next cast instant? Makes next cast -50%? Resets a cooldown on something? Regenerates x% MP based on how many stacks?

Need gameplay impact

[Kazgrel]

Okay and as for there being terrible DPS, i don't rate MMO players among those who hold a high skill cap due to the rather easy entry level and leveling content (not just this mmo but most mmo's in general).

I'll keep a look out, kinda bored with WoW as it stands and not looking into anything to occupy me full time (retired mythic raider). Is samurai and red mage going to be something available only as an advanced job at level 60? But fair enough it's still a few months away might pick up a combo deal of the base and previous expansion and try it out again, although it does suffer the same pitfalls as most FF games kinda boring till you get higher up.

Regarding Samurai and Red Mage: They will start at level 50, and the quest to unlock them becomes available upon completing the base game's main storyline, which does not include all the stuff they patched in from 2.1-2.55, so unlocking those two is a LOT easier than the jobs added in Heavensward (where you had to complete all of those patched in quests, many of which are boring step-and-fetch quests)...and those jobs (dark knight, astrologian, machinist) start at level 30.

[Katchii]

One thing that I find interesting about Cleric Stance is that it is a 4-state system, even though it looks like a 2-state system at first glance. The two transition states are crucial to the gameplay.

An existing system that is very close is the THM Fire/Ice system, if the only way to switch between states was Transpose.

So perhaps extending the Fire/Ice to a Heals/Damage system would work. From baseline, casting a heal gives you buff which boosts healing and decreases damage. Casting a damage spell does the opposite. In the healing state, it takes 2 damage spells to get you to the damage state. From damage it takes you 2 healing spells to get to the healing state. Cleric stance becomes Transpose, which immediately flips you from one state to the other, but has a cooldown.

This system would be cleaner, because there would be no such thing as forgetting Cleric Stance. Simply casting healing spells puts you in the proper state eventually. You would lose the ability to do low damage without leaving the heal state, though.

LotRO has a class, the Rune Keepr, that has the exact system you're referring to. They have access to both offensive and defensive/ healing spells at all times but their attunement to one or the other gets stronger the more of that type they cast and are viable healers AND DPS...just not at the same time. It's a great system IMO and would be a welcome replacement/ augmentation to Cleric Stance. In this system I believe simply casting one of the opposing spells cancels out the "stance" you're in and puts you at zero, but the other catch is that your attunement decays towards neutral if you don't cast something.

Now that I read up a little bit and remember, it's practically identical to the current Black Mage system except instead of Ice/Fire attunement it's Damage/ Healing attunement and instead of the stacks just falling off after a period of time, the intensity diminishes over time...so think percentage rather than Astral Stacks and the percentage goes down if you don't cast another spell in that school and you have access to higher level/ potency spells while in the higher attuement.

[dope_danny]

LotRO has a class, the Rune Keepr, that has the exact system you're referring to. They have access to both offensive and defensive/ healing spells at all times but their attunement to one or the other gets stronger the more of that type they cast and are viable healers AND DPS...just not at the same time. It's a great system IMO and would be a welcome replacement/ augmentation to Cleric Stance. In this system I believe simply casting one of the opposing spells cancels out the "stance" you're in and puts you at zero, but the other catch is that your attunement decays towards neutral if you don't cast something.

Now that I read up a little bit and remember, it's practically identical to the current Black Mage system except instead of Ice/Fire attunement it's Damage/ Healing attunement and instead of the stacks just falling off after a period of time, the intensity diminishes over time...so think percentage rather than Astral Stacks and the percentage goes down if you don't cast another spell in that school and you have access to higher level/ potency spells while in the higher attuement.

Wasn't that similar to how the Mistweave monk was meant to work in the alpha of mists of pandaraia where monks had black and white chi and used combos with no auto attack to shift between them?

[Katchii]

Wasn't that similar to how the Mistweave monk was meant to work in the alpha of mists of pandaraia where monks had black and white chi and used combos with no auto attack to shift between them?

I honestly have no idea how WoW Monk was designed to work in the alpha, I only ever played it in Beta and beyond...

[RohanV]

This is actually very similar to what I originally proposed that started this entire discussion. The difference is that your proposal works in tandem instead of opposite of what mine did. Mine was healing buffs DPS, and DPSing buffs next heal.

Your design is fundamentally different than the current Cleric stance. You're encouraging weaving on a per-GCD basis. One GCD on damage, the next on heals. Cleric stance is more about weaving on a 15-second-block basis. What skill there is involves knowing/predicting that it will be okay to deal damage for the next 15 seconds or so.

Also, one thing about weaving on a shorter basis. It is painful without either mouseover casting or defensive + offensive targets (like Warhammer Online had). I don't think it should be encouraged without support in the default UI.

These "states" impact the values how exactly? So if I'm at baseline and I cast a DPS spell I gain +x% dmg, and -x% healing right? Then again is +2x, -2x? What happens at this point now that I am in DPS stance? Do I continue stacking to say +5x, -5x? +-Infinitex? Does being in a "state' offer any other gameplay changes/bonuses?

You could if you wanted to. BLM does this. The more stacks you have, the longer it takes to transition from one extreme to the other without Transpose. I personally think a relatively short transition, 2 GCDs, is good for healers, so that's only 3 states (Healing, Baseline, Damage).

Lastly, your Cleric Stance cooldown I'd like to see improved. It works, its functional, but its boring. Pushing it should do something in addition to swapping states. Makes next cast instant? Makes next cast -50%? Resets a cooldown on something? Regenerates x% MP based on how many stacks?

Need gameplay impact

It may be a little boring, but it's quite powerful, especially if it is off-GCD. Do you have a THM/BLM? If you don't, just play the first 10 or so levels of one. The mechanic is pretty clear.