Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Friskkers]

You don't seem to understand. Nerfing the Mythic to the ground doesn't make you beat the hardest encounter in the game. It is not hardest encounter in the game anymore. It doesn't deserve a name Mythic anymore. And you are not a mythic raider if you need so many nerfs to beat it. You needed more skill to beat heroic the first time then to beat mythic guldan after shitload of nerfs. You didn't progress. You didn't get better to beat the game. Game got easy for you to beat it. It's like saying a guy who cannot jump more then 10cm in the air should get to experience nba finals. Wrong.

It's not about numbers. It's irrelevant if a thousand or a million people beat it. As long as they all do the work and beat it in the similar conditions. You already have class and encounter guides written and recorded for you by the top guys. It's already a big boost. But hey, make the game incredibly easy so we get to see the "hardest content" in the game. Instead of stepping up, people cry for making things easier. Disgrace to gamers everywhere :P

With this logic they should just close Mythics down a week or two after the last boss has been killed because anyone that couldn't kill it within that time frame obv had to farm gear til they outgeared the content. Making the mythic easier then the real Mythic raiders had it hence making it not really the hardest encounter in the game.

[Deja Thoris]

Yes, I'm not questioning Blizzard's motives for nerfing content. They have to, because that's how gaming community functions today: if it's hard on hardest setting, it needs nerf. I'm talking to the gamers... I genuinely cannot understand satisfaction of beating Mythic bosses when they are nerfed to be easier then heroic version on the first week. We as a community are getting more and more spoiled and we have to take responsibility.

Nothing like a bit of hyperbole to detract from a discussion. Got any examples of when this happened (no!). Stop bullshitting.

[DakonBlackblade]

I DID try to find out, only to find both calculators wrong and loads of mixed info about actual numbers and Im not downloading PTR, since i have download limits, thats why I aksed...

It goes more or less like this: your 20 point mastery trait gets rolled back into 1 point (that gives you 5%) and the AP you invested in the other 19 traits is refunded to you. Then the new traits open and the first new trait in the series is a trait that increases your damage/healing/whatever and stamina by 10%, so you get 15% damage instead of the 14.5% we get currently. And on top of that you still have enought AP to buy another 4 ranks, you will want to max your new 4 points trait, so you can later get the new 1 point trait, then the new golden trait and finaly the new mastery trait (Concordance of the Legion Fall) wich will be a massive boost. After getting to this point itll probably be best to spend your levels getting your old 3 point traits to 4 points, and finally youll dump any extra level you get into more levels for the mastery trait.

Right as 7.2 launch we are looking at a 3-5% or so raidwide DPS/HPS increase since everyone will be getting 0.5% extra damage plus 4 ranks of the new trait they got (all of which are pure troughoutput traits). Whithim 1-2 weeks, everyone will have their golden traits and Concordance of the Legionfall, we will be seeing a boost of around 10-15% in raid troughoutput, so it will serve as a massive nerf to NH. Question is just how long will NH stick around after 7.2 releases.

Keep in mind Blizzard may change things an make it so you need to get every 3 point trait to 4 points before allowing us to get Concordance of the Legionfall rank 1 when things go live.

[Exer]

see this is perfect exmple of people not even trying to find out the gains - you are not loosing 4,5 % - you are actualy gaining 0,5 % - check how new traits will work .

and ofc it will take time - but it will also give you something to work for in those 3-4 months before tomb opens.

3-4 months? More like 1-2 months. NH will absolutely not last 8 months.

[ping-pong]

With this logic they should just close Mythics down a week or two after the last boss has been killed because anyone that couldn't kill it within that time frame obv had to farm gear til they outgeared the content. Making the mythic easier then the real Mythic raiders had it hence making it not really the hardest encounter in the game.

Something similar. Make it impossible to outgear by scaling the gear down is what I would suggest. No nerfs whatsoever of course. Step up or go home :P

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Nothing like a bit of hyperbole to detract from a discussion. Got any examples of when this happened (no!). Stop bullshitting.

What examples do you need? Back in the day (not just WoW), it was impossible to even think to ask developers of a game to nerf it. Noone even considered it. Hard games were just that, hard games. Few beat them on hardest, few more on a bit lower difficulty, most on normal, everyone on easy etc. Nowadays it's just whining about anything really, until I, the average Joe, who is not hardcore with the game, get to beat the hardcore mode. Because I bought the game and I HAZ TO BEATS IT AND BRAG ABOUT HOW GOOD I AM. LOOK GUYS HOW GOOD I AM! I GOTS THE ACHIEVEMENT! THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH 5 DIFFERENT NERFING PROCESSES AND GIEV MEH LOTSA MOAR ILVLS, BUT I GOTS IT IN THA END! Thug life, I r pro.

[Deja Thoris]

Something similar. Make it impossible to outgear by scaling the gear down is what I would suggest. No nerfs whatsoever of course. Step up or go home :P

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What examples do you need? Back in the day (not just WoW), it was impossible to even think to ask developers of a game to nerf it. Noone even considered it. Hard games were just that, hard games. Few beat them on hardest, few more on a bit lower difficulty, most on normal, everyone on easy etc. Nowadays it's just whining about anything really, until I, the average Joe, who is not hardcore with the game, get to beat the hardcore mode. Because I bought the game and I HAZ TO BEATS IT AND BRAG ABOUT HOW GOOD I AM. LOOK GUYS HOW GOOD I AM! I GOTS THE ACHIEVEMENT! THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH 5 DIFFERENT NERFING PROCESSES AND GIEV MEH LOTSA MOAR ILVLS, BUT I GOTS IT IN THA END! Thug life, I r pro.

More hyperbole. You made a statement. Back it up with facts, not herp derp capslock spam.

[cFortyfive]

You did your best and failed. There's no shame in stepping down the difficulty.

Sadly that isn't the case anymore especially so for the Blizzard customer. I think team 5s approach to hearthstone says a lot there.

This raid isn't nearly as hard as some from the past, and if anything it feels pretty appropriately tuned on Mythic..

I definitely think this raid is tightly tuned and has some encounters that certainly are en par with hard encounters in the past.

[Instructor Soki]

Because I bought the game and I HAZ TO BEATS IT AND BRAG ABOUT HOW GOOD I AM. LOOK GUYS HOW GOOD I AM! I GOTS THE ACHIEVEMENT! THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH 5 DIFFERENT NERFING PROCESSES AND GIEV MEH LOTSA MOAR ILVLS, BUT I GOTS IT IN THA END! Thug life, I r pro.

Are you capable of making your point without screeching like a child?

[kamuimac]

3-4 months? More like 1-2 months. NH will absolutely not last 8 months.

ofc it will - because alternative to it will be another 12-14 months of last tier if they release tomb too fast.

[Tojara]

ofc it will - because alternative to it will be another 12-14 months of last tier if they release tomb too fast.

But they at least have another major patch planned beyond ToS.

I fully expect Nighthold to last 2-3 more months max. It released on what, January 17th? I highly doubt they are going to obsolete one of their premier raids by releasing it too early. I'd be surprised if Nighthold lasted less than 4 months though. 5 months sounds right, but who knows. I don't think raiding content is means for them holding back content, especially since they seem determined to push out ToS so that we can get all the lead up content prior to the actual raid coming out. Personally I like the model of releasing a patch earlier, but delaying the raiding content by a little bit.

A mid to late May, or early June for ToS raid would make sense to me. From there they have 7.2.5 sometime in the summer months, while 7.3 probably launches right after Blizzcon. This gives people something to do during the holidays, in addition to being able to finish up ToS. From there they release the Argus raid shortly after 2018.

After that I have no idea what they do. Logically they would probably advertise the next expansion at this years Blizzcon, but I have no idea when the next expansion would launch. A January Argus raid that lasts until late summer with the expansion launching in September would honestly be pretty acceptable (8-9 months for a final patch isn't that bad (better than WoTLK *no Ruby Sanctum doesn't count*, Cataclysm, MoP and WoD), especially if they have some pre-patch stuff during the summer months. That or they have a two tiered approach for the last content patch and finish up the expansion with two Argus raids, with the second coming several months after the first a 7.3.5. Otherwise they fall into the same trap of having giant lapse in content.

[ping-pong]

More hyperbole. You made a statement. Back it up with facts, not herp derp capslock spam.

There are two options:
One: You were active gamer in the time that gamers didn't cry for nerfs and just beat the highest setting they could on their own. In that case you don't need facts.
Two: You started gaming when new-age entitled bullshit became a thing, in which case you should listen to older gamers in order to learn about the history of gaming. As far as I know, there is no real authority on the subject, so all you can do is learn from the people who were there :P

Herp derp capslock spam is there to show you how you sound to anyone serious about the subject when you cry for the game to be beaten for you by devs, so you could have a sense of achievement.

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Are you capable of making your point without screeching like a child?

The point has been made very clearly. Might as well have some fun with it :P

[Cheze]

raids have been getting progressively nerfed for practically the whole history of the game; they started doing it systematically in BC and have in every expansion since

[Teri]

But they at least have another major patch planned beyond ToS.

A mid to late May, or early June for ToS raid would make sense to me. From there they have 7.2.5 sometime in the summer months, while 7.3 probably launches right after Blizzcon. This gives people something to do during the holidays, in addition to being able to finish up ToS. From there they release the Argus raid shortly after 2018.

I think ToS will actually "open" with 7.2.5, just like Nighthold did in 7.1.5. Would not make sense at all to open the raid, then do big class tuning later.

Yes you can argue that 7.2 changes will have impact on Nighthold, and it certainly will , but 7.2 wasn't a class tuning patch.

I don't see much 7.2.5 content unless they surprise us.

[Deja Thoris]

There are two options:
One: You were active gamer in the time that gamers didn't cry for nerfs and just beat the highest setting they could on their own. In that case you don't need facts.
Two: You started gaming when new-age entitled bullshit became a thing, in which case you should listen to older gamers in order to learn about the history of gaming. As far as I know, there is no real authority on the subject, so all you can do is learn from the people who were there :P

The world changes and games companies and people need to change to. By your logic the "old guard" were right and what we had back then was perfection and can't be iterated and improved on. How likely is that?

I'll just file your posts away under the "the dudes an idiot but I'll skim over them for a laugh" section of my brain. You've really only proved how myopic and closed minded you are.

[ping-pong]

The world changes and games companies and people need to change to. By your logic the "old guard" were right and what we had back then was perfection and can't be iterated and improved on. How likely is that?

I'll just file your posts away under the "the dudes an idiot but I'll skim over them for a laugh" section of my brain. You've really only proved how myopic and closed minded you are.

The problem (one of) with gaming population and world in general today is that people want everything without working for it. If you think that's improvement over the old guard who works his ass off to achieve what he wants and doesn't blame everyone for his shortcomings, takes responsibility... well, laugh away sir and good luck in life

[Ebalina]

The problem (one of) with gaming population and world in general today is that people want everything without working for it. If you think that's improvement over the old guard who works his ass off to achieve what he wants and doesn't blame everyone for his shortcomings, takes responsibility... well, laugh away sir and good luck in life

Why work hard when you can cut corners and get where you wanna be faster/cheaper/with less to worry about?
Explain to me why?
I get it i'm all about hard working i do it my self, and when i get bypassed by some one who cheated/got on by cause of his family or some shit like that i always wonder "WTF am i doing?" honestly if ppl can cut the corners they should because if you do not do it some one else will.

But good luck with your naivety.

[KaPe]

The problem (one of) with gaming population and world in general today is that people want everything without working for it. If you think that's improvement over the old guard who works his ass off to achieve what he wants and doesn't blame everyone for his shortcomings, takes responsibility... well, laugh away sir and good luck in life

You do realize that one of reasons plenty of top guilds called quits was because you actually had to "work" more than ever, right? There was far more effort involved in raiding this time around and not everyone enjoyed it - especially those who got screwed by bad RNG. Raiders never needed to do so much other activities to be ready for their main content. Dailies were quickly done. Legendaries were acquired through raid content. Dungeons were quickly outgeared - except for some obscure things like Dark Runes (which were used by a tiny part of population). There was no additional layer of power, which is now going to be infinite.

You really sound like some old fart talking about his glory days and complaining about those spoiled kids.

Besides, if you really cared about all that, you should be jumping at the throat of World First guilds whenever they discover some "creative use of mechanics". Doesn't matter if was Mark of Necromancer, BoP on Paragons to bypass healing mechanic, suicide dagger on Garrosh, the clown fiesta that was Atramedes or dozen other things. Maybe even Augur's weak aura, which is getting removed soon. Instead, you put yourself as this gatekeeper who gets to decide whether players are worthy of mythic raiding.

Either way, when you will be complaining about 7.2 nerfs in (~two) weeks, I'll be enjoying easier farm through bosses I already killed and progressing to newer ones. I'd say that from the two of us, I'll be better off.

[ping-pong]

Why work hard when you can cut corners and get where you wanna be faster/cheaper/with less to worry about?
Explain to me why?
I get it i'm all about hard working i do it my self, and when i get bypassed by some one who cheated/got on by cause of his family or some shit like that i always wonder "WTF am i doing?" honestly if ppl can cut the corners they should because if you do not do it some one else will.

But good luck with your naivety.

Working hard and smart means figuring out what you want to achieve, finding out what needs to be done and then work hard to accomplish it. Opportunities to cut corners or speed things up should be considered, but not if it breaks any major rules or laws. Losing time and nerves because someone else made it faster by cheating, having connections etc... is just that - losing time and nerves. Don't do that. Have a clear path for yourself and do the work required.

[DakonBlackblade]

I guess Blizz recent nerfs to Aluriel and Star Augur kinda puts this whole discussion to rest, they want a smoother difficulty curve and nerfed 2 bosses that were too hard for the position they were in the raid to achiev it. The OP has Blizz's aproval Id say.

[Deleted]

I guess Blizz recent nerfs to Aluriel and Star Augur kinda puts this whole discussion to rest, they want a smoother difficulty curve and nerfed 2 bosses that were too hard for the position they were in the raid to achiev it. The OP has Blizz's aproval Id say.

Does it ensure that whole issue won't happen again? No.