Lack of class diversity is why so few people want to play RDPS

[Deleted]

I really like to hear your reasoning for this.

Would you expect a Retribution Paladin to bring 100% DPS to the group? Would expect the Retribution Paladin to "tank" in a group? Would you expect a Retribution Paladin to "heal" in a group?

Think about it. If the Retribution Paladin is healing or tanking, they are not doing damage. Their DPS drops to almost 0. And since they are not in the correct spec, their tanking or healing is no way near anything close to what they should be doing in those off spec role.

Then why should they be penalized with a reduction to their active spec?

Well I guess you didn't read the whole thing. The fights should be made in a way that hybrids would have to use different specs in fights.

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Why not go further and just delete dps specs from all the "tank" and "healer" classes? Since their dps specs will be useless anyway, better they don't exist and don't lure newbies into a trap they can play a ret or a boomkin.

Legion went to extra lengths anyway to kill offspecs. A character is a spec now, not a class. Either you're mage or druid, switching to another spec is either double the grind or half the usefulness.

Well, answered to other person already, but I stated that fights should be planned in a way that hybrids would use more than one spec in fights.

[BannedForViews]

Ranged does a lot of damage but you are correct in that playing only 3 ranged specs as a warlock is silly. I could have either a tank or healing spec, or both, and it would be cool and make sense. A mage could have a melee caster spec where they use short ranged spells like can be done in d3. Hunters have a melee that needs to be made better, and then youd at peast have a bit more diversity, and unholy should be ranged plate to split up the melee monotony a bit.

[Vaelorian]

Well i don't know which delusional world you live in but mages are master class no one can surpass, their only drawback is not being able to tank, melee DPS or heal. This limitation exist for sole purpose of attracting players to other classes, so we won't end up with 100% mage pop

I was thinking out loud to determine what might be the cause. As I honestly don't know. The one thing I do know is that you almost never see mages or locks anymore in raids.

[Maylander]

I agree with the OP, and it definitely applies to me: I will always choose a hybrid class for a main. Always. I just can't stand not being able to help the guild in either raids or M+ runs as either a tank or healer (whenever needed), even though my main spec is DPS. As others have pointed out: It's not as easy as "level another toon"; gearing up to mythic levels is hard work, so that strategy only works for the seriously hardcore.

Also, lack of ranged DPS is definitely a real issue, as anyone who's tried to recruit for progression guilds can attest to: It is so, so much easier to recruit good melee than good ranged, even though ranged are still highly useful (yes, they currently bring less DPS, but they're better at dealing with certain mechanics).

The worst part is, as someone who cares about raid balance and progression, I predicted this as soon as they announced the Demon Hunter. I just couldn't believe it. We already had problems with ranged recruitment in WoD, and now they were going to make matters worse. They've added 5x melee specs (frost, UH, WW, Havoc and Surv) and removed 1x ranged spec (Surv) since vanilla. Remarkable.

As for "ranged tanks" - it doesn't have to be an actual ranged tank. A ranged class with a tanking spec doesn't need to be ranged while tanking. Turn Arcane into an Arcane Warrior/Knight-Enchanter (Dragon Age) kind of thing for example, with a magic blade/shield and some badass magic buffing/moves. It would be fantastic. Same applies to Warlocks. This game lacks a proper "battle mage" kind of thing, wielding spells and weapons at the same time. I love such classes, bring'em on.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I agree with the OP, and it definitely applies to me: I will always choose a hybrid class for a main. Always. I just can't stand not being able to help the guild in either raids or M+ runs as either a tank or healer (whenever needed), even though my main spec is DPS. As others have pointed out: It's not as easy as "level another toon"; gearing up to mythic levels is hard work, so that strategy only works for the seriously hardcore.

Also, lack of ranged DPS is definitely a real issue, as anyone who's tried to recruit for progression guilds can attest to: It is so, so much easier to recruit good melee than good ranged, even though ranged are still highly useful (yes, they currently bring less DPS, but they're better at dealing with certain mechanics).

The worst part is, as someone who cares about raid balance and progression, I predicted this as soon as they announced the Demon Hunter. I just couldn't believe it. We already had problems with ranged recruitment in WoD, and now they were going to make matters worse. They've added 5x melee specs (frost, UH, WW, Havoc and Surv) and removed 1x ranged spec (Surv) since vanilla. Remarkable.

As for "ranged tanks" - it doesn't have to be an actual ranged tank. A ranged class with a tanking spec doesn't need to be ranged while tanking. Turn Arcane into an Arcane Warrior/Knight-Enchanter (Dragon Age) kind of thing for example, with a magic blade/shield and some badass magic buffing/moves. It would be fantastic. Same applies to Warlocks. This game lacks a proper "battle mage" kind of thing, wielding spells and weapons at the same time. I love such classes, bring'em on.

Thats great an all, but most players don't want to be healers or tanks. Thats why we STILL have queue issues, even though they have added classes with tanks and healers. It didn't solve the issue. So while, a small sect of people would enjoy this sort of change, the majority of players just wouldn't care. They want to play FOTM DPS and thats about it.

[Deleted]

Warlocks offer another opportunity because they are already extremely tanky for a RDPS cloth wearer.

This hasn't been the case since legion removed half of our DRs and Survivablity abilities. When I'm playing destro I have ONE DR

The demo tank fantasy died in WoD and especially now since we lost meta. MoP was the closest we got with the glyph that gave us tank abilities (but still no crit protection and raid tanking ability limiting us to heroic 5 mans)

[Deleted]

Class diversity is irrelevant.

Blizzard had a lot of changes to casters/ranged dps to make them require additional standing still, more spell casting, less cleaving. At the same time, the average amount of mechanics targeting melee dropped to near 0(and with mobility/immunity the mechanics that do target melee don't really matter anyway). On top of this, Mythic+ is extremely melee bias.

[Sansnom]

Well I guess you didn't read the whole thing.

Or rather you did not read my question.

Why should a pure DPS gain a 20% damage increase.

People are confusing a hybrid class with a hybrid spec.

What you described is a complex boss mechanic involving people switching spec. When a player switches role, that same player cannot longer or expected to perform their previous role.

If "hybrid" suffers a DPS penalty, should they not also suffer "tank" penalty or "heal" penalty because they can DPS as well?

[PraisCthulhu]

This hasn't been the case since legion removed half of our DRs and Survivablity abilities. When I'm playing destro I have ONE DR

The demo tank fantasy died in WoD and especially now since we lost meta. MoP was the closest we got with the glyph that gave us tank abilities (but still no crit protection and raid tanking ability limiting us to heroic 5 mans)

I'm not saying they are a viable tank as is, I'm saying they are far more tanky than any other cloth RDPS. Even with the reduction in their tankyness, they are still far, far more durable than a mage or a priest. Their health pool, Soul Link, and Unending Resolve give Warlock's some serious staying power.

They were more durable back before 7.1 when we could take Demon skin and Dark Pact.

But, like I said, I'm not arguing that warlocks, as they sit now, are viable tanks. I'm saying they have most potential in their current tool kit to be turned into a tank.

[Myztikrice]

Thats great an all, but most players don't want to be healers or tanks. Thats why we STILL have queue issues, even though they have added classes with tanks and healers. It didn't solve the issue. So while, a small sect of people would enjoy this sort of change, the majority of players just wouldn't care. They want to play FOTM DPS and thats about it.

You have no evidence to back this up. By the nature of grouping there is always a need for more DPS than tanks. There will never be a 1:1 of tanks and DPS when a raid group needs 2 tanks and 9 DPS

[Maylander]

Thats great an all, but most players don't want to be healers or tanks. Thats why we STILL have queue issues, even though they have added classes with tanks and healers. It didn't solve the issue. So while, a small sect of people would enjoy this sort of change, the majority of players just wouldn't care. They want to play FOTM DPS and thats about it.

This topic is not about wanting to play tanks or healers. It's not about queues. It's about ranged vs melee. Melee have more specs. They have more cool specs. They have more versatile specs. They have more options. They've added 5x melee specs and removed 1x ranged spec, upsetting the balance even further. This is a problem, not because tier isn't "melee friendly" (it is), but because recruiting quality ranged players have been a problem for years.

The game needs more classes with ranged specs. Don't care how they do it: Give Paladins a Shockadin spec. Give Rogues a dart or dagger throwing spec. Give Mages more versastility by letting them also tank or something that makes the class more attractive, introduce a completely new class that's only ranged + healer, make Unholy an Affliction type thing, give warriors a gun and tell them to shoot stuff. I don't care, nor do I give a damn about healers or tanks. We have no problems recruiting either one, because so few are needed (2x tanks in 20x people is not hard to get). What I do care about is that it takes months to recruit a single, high quality player willing to play a ranged class full time.

[Deleted]

I'm not saying they are a viable tank as is, I'm saying they are far more tanky than any other cloth RDPS. Even with the reduction in their tankyness, they are still far, far more durable than a mage or a priest. Their health pool, Soul Link, and Unending Resolve give Warlock's some serious staying power.

They were more durable back before 7.1 when we could take Demon skin and Dark Pact.

But, like I said, I'm not arguing that warlocks, as they sit now, are viable tanks. I'm saying they have most potential in their current tool kit to be turned into a tank.

And I'm saying you're completely wrong. How can one DR and a passive absorb (that with the current damage being taken in raids is worthless) on any level be considered tanky? Mages have just as much if not more survivability than warlocks. Mirror Image, Ice Block, Invis, Blink are all standard abilities that dont require talents. Warlocks dont rven have their threat reduction anymore (soulshatter) admitedly threat reduction is counter intuitive to what a tank does but I think you get where I'm going with this.

And I'm not arguing for or against any cloth tanks btw just against your assumption that locks are the most durable clothy.

[Myztikrice]

I think it's definitely people preferring the instant cast/mobile playstyles of melee over ranged rather than whether they are a hybrid class

[l33t]

I think it's definitely people preferring the instant cast/mobile playstyles of melee over ranged rather than whether they are a hybrid class

Yeah. Specifically when ranged have zero place in modern game, other than being a mechanics bitches of the raid. PvP? Lol, ranged are useless meat. Non-raid pve? You'd have much better results replacing your ranged with melees. Hell, even soloing old raids with specs like shadow priest who have literally no way to effectively aoe things is pure cancer and pain - compare that to warrior rushing in and clearing whole raid instance in two cleaves, for example, lol. Then people start wondering why its hard to find ranged. Surprise surprise, there is a very low number of masochistic players who actually enjoy being useless shit in everything and having to do extra work in raids instead of just tunneling bosses and feeling good about themselves.