No sense of progression in Nighthold - Preach video

[Kalador]

Because FAST TO FARM = a quality raid.... cmon guys really? Killing bosses in 30 seconds is a "must have"? Why do you even bother killing them at that point? Because "it's fun"? You can kill Hogger in one spell, it must be fun!
I can understand everything, but this is on a whole other level.
This is whining for the sake of whining.

The problem is not farm time.... Idc about farm time, i care about a well tuned raid where you feel that every new week you're a bit more powerful and closer to kill some new boss. The main problem i have with NH is that i don't feel like farming hero NH and M boss help me and my guild on progression boss as much as it should. I also fucking hate boss that are tuned for 3 healer and everyone playing pure ST spec when most guild don't have the luxury of sitting a shadow priest for a frost mage or benching 1-2 healer every week on a fight...

[Kalador]

lol i dont pay for that. and this shiet is fcking cheap.

someone does for you, 150+ $ a year is not Fucking cheap for a video game.

- - - Updated - - -

7.2 makes nighthold alot easier

true, i believe it's the reason they have not nerf the place yet but it might be bit to late...

[Deleted]

Because FAST TO FARM = a quality raid.... cmon guys really? Killing bosses in 30 seconds is a "must have"? Why do you even bother killing them at that point? Because "it's fun"? You can kill Hogger in one spell, it must be fun!
I can understand everything, but this is on a whole other level.
This is whining for the sake of whining.

Good raiding: you play better to beat a boss and make your character better after that to make reclearing/preparing to next tier easier. Also you can play logs if your guild wants to.
Legion raiding: you grind enough gear to be able to kill a boss and throw away almost every piece that didn't proc titanforging. At least logs game still exists.

7.2 makes nighthold alot easier

It just makes your kills seem irrelevant. Patch still doesn't solve any of existing long-term issues.

[Deleted]

Good raiding: you play better to beat a boss and make your character better after that to make reclearing/preparing to next tier easier. Also you can play logs if your guild wants to.
Legion raiding: you grind enough gear to be able to kill a boss and throw away almost every piece that didn't proc titanforging. At least logs game still exists.



It just makes your kills seem irrelevant. Patch still doesn't solve any of existing long-term issues.

But answer to this: you need a full titanforged mythic loot to clear a mythic raid?

If the answer is yes, i wuold like to have some evidence, if you please.

If the answer is no, sorry but Blizzard shuold not cater to obsessive compulsive players that need full BiS titanforged gear and max AP in 1 week.

Oh, and why my kill is irrelevant? It's still current raid, i still get the same achievement, the same mount, the same loot, the same title Exorsus get for their World First. Oh the only thing is a mention on a private site.

[Divinexve]

Kono dio da

[Deleted]

Kono dio da

Finally a not-muda post!

[Deleted]

If the answer is yes, i wuold like to have some evidence, if you please.

Easy.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=18 with guild itemlevel being less than 895 there are only 3 bosses are being attainable for killing. 895 is heroic guldan level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=20 without being at least 902 you won't be able to kill Star Augur. It is almost mythic level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=21 Gul'dan needs at least 905 itemlevel.

So yes, you either need to farm every piece of gear from mythic raids to clear it. Or rely on titanforging.

Please come back when you start doing anything harder than raid finder before suggesting how mythic raiding should look like.

[Deleted]

Easy.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=18 with guild itemlevel being less than 895 there are only 3 bosses are being attainable for killing. 895 is heroic guldan level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=20 without being at least 902 you won't be able to kill Star Augur. It is almost mythic level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=21 Gul'dan needs at least 905 itemlevel.

So yes, you either need to farm every piece of gear from mythic raids to clear it. Or rely on titanforging.

Please come back when you start doing anything harder than raid finder before suggesting how mythic raiding should look like.

I too like to raid mythic with lfr weapon traits and without legendaries

[BiggestNoob]

He is essentially exposing himself and mythic raiders, as only doing mythic for the gear. He wants better gear from mythic so that he can overpower it.

You're missing the point. The complaint is that there's no growth at all because there isn't really above a point well before you're geared enough to do much of anything to the hard bosses in the raid.

In the past this growth has served as a way for top players to push bosses faster and faster to shorten how much time they need to spend per week during downtime. For the vast majority of people who clear mythic, it has served as needed nerfs over time as the encounters are generally quite hard at the intended ilvl, and while a lot of people do enjoy that challenge, very few guilds have people sufficiently good to kill the bosses reliably at that difficulty level.

Surprising no one, there are huge differences between guilds and it comes down to many things, including skill level. While many people enjoy pushing challenge at their limit, most people don't enjoy repeating challenging things just for the sake of doing challenge. You don't have the sense of excitement about doing it like you did the first time, instead it becomes frustrating when for whatever reason you have trouble repeating it. Frustration != fun.

He wants to overpower it because he cba with challenge, because its fundamentally not "fun" to spend 12 hours a week doing bosses where one mistake equals a wipe.

And when your farm includes 60-90 minute bosses because people quit and you need people to relearn fights months after you've killed them, you have a problem. The challenge is fine. Mythic with 930 raid ilvl is still harder than heroic at 880, much harder, and people who rightly understand that heroic is trivial mode who want something harder aren't all quite prepared to face bosses that take 100+ wipes with the intended ilvl from players who make errors at a much lower rate than even people in the top 1%.

Imagine you're pushing content and you hit a wall where the content is just too hard for your group, even at 100 wipes on a boss. You come back, get some more gear, then push and kill the boss. Repeat until the raid is cleared.

This is what most people do and enjoy, and the "stomping" aspect of it comes later, when you're talking about raiding becoming relaxation. For people who can do mythic, heroic is not hard enough to be relaxing. It just evokes apathy.

This is basic psychology. Most people chase after arousal/flow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C...e_vs_skill.svg

The objective is to find challenge then improve your skill, repeat, and if you hit a ceiling (which happens with everyone) Blizzard pushes you along by compensating with gear. If heroic was the penultimate difficulty for people who can't clear mythic on week 2, hundreds of thousands of people would be so bored they wouldn't bother subscribing.

And here we thought mythic raiding was about challenging content, and its obviously not. Blizzard designed the bosses and the gear, so that you are challenged for months on end, but that is not what they want. In a RNG based system, they can still get far better gear than anyone else, but its not good enough.

No that's never been their design philosophy. And no, the gear differential between heroic players who do M+ and mythic players is smaller than it has ever been, because of the RNG system. This is why the content can't be intended for heroic gear (with some mythic on later bosses) and why bosses still feel overtuned for people in mostly mythic gear. If you can have mythic level gear before entering mythic, Blizzard has to tune around that otherwise it'll be challenging for nobody. That's the entire point and why this design doesn't work well.

The only good thing about challenging content (for people like him) is that it keeps people at bay from even doing it, but once they are over that hurdle they have no desire to overcome it again, they want 980 itemlvl gear so they can stomp the whole place.

It's like with anything else. You don't want to keep spending tons of time and a high level of effort doing something you've already done over and over. If it was new content constantly, they might not complain as much, but when you're 7 weeks into clearing some bosses and you're still wiping to them and needing to relearn when people quit, it's going to be a grating experience, to say the least.

The entire premise that these are hardcore people who take their craft (no pun intended) seriously, as these cyber athletes who finesse their play is laughable. Instead its largely people substituting real life accomplishments for virtual ones, to get some recognition from other likeminded addicts.

At this point you just sound mad. This personal for you? Not good enough, perhaps?

There is absolutely a skill component or there wouldn't be such large discrepancies when factoring in legendaries and ilvl. The same people consistently pull high 90%s at their ilvl, and the same guilds keep killing bosses in a relatively few number of pulls. The same guilds show up speed killing in farm. There would be no such consistency if this wasn't the case.

Most people aren't 99.9% players, most people aren't in Serenity putting in 90+ hour weeks, and most people aren't intentionally wiping and gearing alts to class stack for top 5 speed kills and ranks. That doesn't mean they don't still enjoy improving their performance week over week, or as you say, "finesse their play."

The best thing about mythic raiding is that its difficulty inflates the value of the gear you can get from it, not the actual challenge. The challenge is annoying but its neccessary to filter out the casuals, semi hardcores and everyone else.

No. You've conflated the two things. The gear differential is necessary for mythic to exist for all but the top 20 guilds. Mythic at 930 is still harder than heroic at 880. There is absolutely a challenge aspect to doing mythic. Very few people just want to get uber gear and go in and stomp it. How many people clear old raids just because they want to see how fast they blast down the content vs getting transmog/mounts?

I dont care why you play videogames, but at least stop bullshitting about wanting a challenge, when you play a fucking MMO. If you want a challenge go play more skill intensive games, such as..any other genre. This community is full of bullshit artists trying to pump their fragile egos with virtual loot, at least be honest about it. Its all that matters, and its all that ever mattered in this game.

Ah so you're one of those people who are angry that mythic raiders got better gear than you, right? I can promise you that if you put me and you on any spec in the game with identical gear that I would always perform better than you. Hell, I could give you 10 more ilvls and it'd still be true. Gear has a purpose, and it's not the only thing that matters. You don't seem to understand the purpose.

I suspect the one with a fragile ego is the one here who is quite angry and bitter that he didn't measure up. Maybe you've got a little projection going on?

[RoKPaNda]

Oh please, "98%" wouldn't even notice if their items would cap at/below Mythic raiding level. It would still be a huge buff to item quality, except it wouldn't make rewards from hardest content seem laughable in comparison.

The hardest content is already laughable. Almost nobody does it, and those who dedicate themselves to it get zero reward or recognition for it. Just remove Mythic raiding, much better solution than gutting Titanforge.

[Sar-]

Easy.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=18 with guild itemlevel being less than 895 there are only 3 bosses are being attainable for killing. 895 is heroic guldan level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=20 without being at least 902 you won't be able to kill Star Augur. It is almost mythic level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=21 Gul'dan needs at least 905 itemlevel.

So yes, you either need to farm every piece of gear from mythic raids to clear it. Or rely on titanforging.

Please come back when you start doing anything harder than raid finder before suggesting how mythic raiding should look like.

Changing the ilevel brackets on those disproves Preach's point he was making. Kill times drop by about 30 secs per bracket on Skorp, 20 secs per bracket for Anomaly etc.

[Raiju]

I used to like preach, but after playing the legion beta after watching his video about tanking. I decided he is totally wrong about the game OR he has another PoV that doesnt match mine so i shouldnt care.
He convinced me that tanking was horrible and when i got the beta key i had a blast tanking and i mained tanking since launch (almost).

Guessing since you said since launch you didn't tank in mop/wod, therefore it's natural that you may not appreciate what tanks lost this expansion

[Krazzorx]

Is Tomb linear or as open as NH is?

I think one problem also could be the fact bosses 4-8 are all designed to be the same difficulty. No one has a problem rekilling the first 3 at all. (Yes they aren't hard in first place but kill timers on them go way down compared to upper half)

[Hotsforyou]

Guessing since you said since launch you didn't tank in mop/wod, therefore it's natural that you may not appreciate what tanks lost this expansion

Ya. Been playing a prot warrior since Cata and a prot pally before that. I can barely bring myself to log in to raid now. Warrior just does not feel right anymore. Makes me sad what happened to tanking this Xpak.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Anyway, Preach and Asmongold are whining, what else is new? That's all they've done in recent years.

I don't agree with Preach on everything - on lots of things - but this statement is unfair. I still watch his videos occasionally, mostly out of gratitude for all he taught me about tanking when I was first starting. He says plenty of positive stuff. To me it seems like he can be moody and uneven, but appears to call the good and bad as he sees it. His tone is a lot more positive overall than the average post on MMO-C.

[Deleted]

Changing the ilevel brackets on those disproves Preach's point he was making. Kill times drop by about 30 secs per bracket on Skorp, 20 secs per bracket for Anomaly etc.

Oh wow, 30 seconds. That's a lot!
No, it's not.
You don't even do raiding, i guess? Because you would've known why those killtimes are happening. Also you are forced to stick with old boring progression strat every kill and it won't change.

I too like to raid mythic with lfr weapon traits and without legendaries

What do you even mean by that? "lfr" level of gear is going naked into raid and afk. Because it's enough.

[arcaneshot]

Guessing since you said since launch you didn't tank in mop/wod, therefore it's natural that you may not appreciate what tanks lost this expansion

They don't feel gimped enough. Bears were flippin' terrible in WoD with the Swipe cooldown.

[Sar-]

Oh wow, 30 seconds. That's a lot!
No, it's not.
You don't even do raiding, i guess? Because you would've known why those killtimes are happening. Also you are forced to stick with old boring progression strat every kill and it won't change.


What do you even mean by that? "lfr" level of gear is going naked into raid and afk. Because it's enough.

Been raiding probably longer than you've been playing the game, new guy, so hush now and let the big boys talk.

Also, please learn to read. Reading comp ftw.

[Deleted]

What do you even mean by that? "lfr" level of gear is going naked into raid and afk. Because it's enough.

It means that someone with an average ilvl of 895 is gonna have an average ilvl of below 890 in all slots except legendaries (940) and weapon (895 ilvl weapon would be with lfr traits; heroic traits give you 915ish weapon). So please stop this bullshit, you don't need full heroic guldan ilvl to kill mythic bosses (especially not the first 3).

Changing the ilevel brackets on those disproves Preach's point he was making. Kill times drop by about 30 secs per bracket on Skorp, 20 secs per bracket for Anomaly etc.

Oh come on using actual relevant data instead of made up bullshit (skorpyron farm times supposedly LONGER than first kill times on average lol) to support your feelings because your guild sucks is so unfair

And these sheep still take this video as a serious basis for discussion...

See for yourself, yes these are speed rankings but compare to their first kills (vids/logs up for most) - no significant decrease in kill times you say? And people are still running with progression healer amounts except for skorpyron and trilliax - jk didn't even need 4 healers on theses bosses for progression, could easily do with 2 at this point in time.

Git gud and stop crying.

[Soulwell]

Anyone watching mike preach and taking him seriously is pretty stupid. He does nothing but complain about literally anything there is to complain about. He has good legendaries and every parse he has is grey or green. He clearly gets carried by whatever guild is blind to how bad he is all for little 14 year olds to notice them in lfr.

Been raiding probably longer than you've been playing the game, new guy, so hush now and let the big boys talk.

Also, please learn to read. Reading comp ftw.

If you want to call not having a single mythic kill when the first 3 bosses are easier than guldan raiding you go ahead and live in your fantasy fairy world.