No sense of progression in Nighthold - Preach video

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Koenigstiger

It means that someone with an average ilvl of 895 is gonna have an average ilvl of below 890 in all slots except legendaries (940) and weapon (895 ilvl weapon would be with lfr traits; heroic traits give you 915ish weapon). So please stop this bullshit, you don't need full heroic guldan ilvl to kill mythic bosses (especially not the first 3).

Learn to read. I said that without being 895(which is heroic guldan itemlevel) only 3 joke bosses are accessible. It also means that you aren't raiding if you put baseless statements without checking any facts.

Originally Posted by Sar the Laser Druid

Been raiding

Doing normal bosses expansion later isn't organized raiding. And you don't even know boss mechanics. Genius.
I am asking valid question: why should anyone put a feedback on an activity that this certain individual does not do?

**Soulwell** · 2017-03-21, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Annoy-o-tron

why should anyone put a feedback on an activity that this certain individual does not do?

It's the Internet. https://imgur.com/a/iqeGu

**kamuimac** · 2017-03-21, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Annoy-o-tron

Oh wow, 30 seconds. That's a lot!
No, it's not.
You don't even do raiding, i guess? Because you would've known why those killtimes are happening. Also you are forced to stick with old boring progression strat every kill and it won't change.

What do you even mean by that? "lfr" level of gear is going naked into raid and afk. Because it's enough.

and what kills times woudl you expect ? 40 second fights like on iron reaver would be acceptable for you ?

30 sec on 5 minutes fight is 10 % drop and its before incoming nerfs - if you gonan claim that 10-20% faster doesnt change the fight then sorry but troll somewhere else.

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by kamuimac

and what kills times woudl you expect ? 40 second fights like on iron reaver would be acceptable for you ?

Yes. Those didn't happen during progression. And reaver was one of the first bosses. Of course it's supposed to be allowed to be killed really fast.
Allowing those things actually makes farm a lot more fun than having motivation to kill Augur one whole minute faster after 10 weeks of farming while doing same thing.

Originally Posted by kamuimac

if you gonan claim that 10-20% faster doesnt change the fight

So how exactly Krosus fight is changing from killing it 10% faster?

**Frolk** · 2017-03-21, 10:42 AM

Hopefully Tomb Mythic loot will make mythic kills feel worth getting. my guild is 10h into krosus progression, we kill it, i broll an plain mythic chest, woop, sadly i got an 910/socket from our farm raid some time ago, wipe for ages, get minor gear upgrades, nice.
Blizz should up ilvl for mythic if this trend continues for Tomb >_>

**Sar-** · 2017-03-21, 11:03 AM

Ooh, butthurt from the Preach fanbois in this thread is REAL. CAN I GET A HOLLA BALLERZ?

Wonderful

Wonder how long before they go full Trumptard and start shouting "FAKE NEWS! SAD!"

LOL

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Annoy-o-tron

Learn to read. I said that without being 895(which is heroic guldan itemlevel) only 3 joke bosses are accessible.

Reread your own post, you clearly didn't account for legendaries and higher weapon ilvl when looking at overall listed ilvl on warcraftlogs (or you made wrong statements on purpose).

Also Spellblade and Krosus have been killed by guilds that had around 891 average ilvl on everything except weapon and legendaries, don't try to blame blizzard because you're not good enough. Just step up your game.

Also the data and facts regarding farm kill times and first kill times have been posted by me and multiple other persons in this thread, there is a significant decrease (arguably larger than in highmaul or BRF in the same timeframe) in kill time on pretty much every single boss, and the data shown in the video has been debunked as made up to support a gut feeling in regards to his own guild.

tl;dr: preach is burned out because his guild can't handle star signs while he as a blink class is chillin'.

**Creraria** · 2017-03-21, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Annoy-o-tron

So how exactly Krosus fight is changing from killing it 10% faster?

killin Krosus faster skips the Orb -> Slam -> Orb combo, potentially allowing to 2 heal it (if you have a prot pally for another raid cd earlier) which means an even faster killtime, since you can take another dps

**Tojara** · 2017-03-21, 11:43 AM

I've seen a few of this dudes videos, and most of them are pretty bleh, but this video is basically the same opinion I have on the matter.

Personally I think TF/WF are good systems, it's just mythic doesn't feel very rewarding. Not sure if I agree with the sentiment that encounters need to be changed in order to make them easier on farm, but I think the reward systems need to be looked at. Looking at our own kills, they only get marginally faster each week. Our Krosus kills are 35-40 seconds faster than our first week, but it's not like it makes the boss way easier. Botanist kill is shorter for sure, as we cut out a good 45 seconds from having to wait until the next orbs spawn, but for all intent and purpose, the last phase is the hardest phase, so it's not like we really make the difficulty 'easier' by doing that. All in all he's *sort of* right that kill times don't get faster with kills, and that sort of goes hand in hand with being 'over geared' for the content, but the tuning being really tight. Don't get me wrong, we see decrease in kill times, they just aren't massive. You certainly aren't overpowering bosses like you did in the past after a month of farm on them. I personally think that's okay, but my main point (which I'll allude to later) is that Mythic raids don't feel as rewarding as they were in the past.

A reference point for most here. We finished like US35th (I know this is shared EU/US, but just for reference for the US bros) in HFC, killing Archimonde like a month and a half or two months (something like that) over the first guilds to kill it. When we killed the boss we were something like 8-9 ilvls higher than the first guilds. We aren't on Mythic Gul'dan yet, but in about the same time, we are just 3 iLvLs ahead of what Exorsus was when they killed Gul'dan. Obviously we aren't as good, but we also don't raid as much, nor do we have the compositions these guilds are able to pull off either. Using my own guild as an example, the progression you feel from doing farm just doesn't feel like it's there anymore. Essentially the point that the video, and many other posters in this thread are pointing out is actually true. Progression, at least from an iLvL standpoint is incredibly flat.

It really doesn't have to be like this though and they could fix it in a number of ways. The way they are doing AP next patch is a far better way to nerf instances, but it by itself really isn't going to change things a whole lot. What they could do to get the iLvL progression feel back in the game is to simply make Mythic raids drop more gear, or simply make the difference between heroic and mythic iLvLs a little higher (to the range of 5-10). Naturally TF would need to go higher as well, but if you add such a system now you probably erase the problem of guilds being stuck at 3/10 a bit quicker. Right now because of TF/WF you, as a 3/10 guild could kill all those 3 bosses you have had on farm get your 12 pieces of loot (not counting bonus rolls) and potentially shard over half of it or more each week.

Basically, heroic is really rewarding as is M+ (and I don't want those nerfed) but Mythic content REALLY should be more rewarding. Buffing base mythic loot quantity or iLvL doesn't really even hurt the race, as these guilds get at max (using historical data of the last several tiers) 2 resets of gear anyway. The bosses at the end can still be tuned around whatever, but you fix the progression curve being essentially flat (which it is right now). HFC didn't have this problem because iLvL inflated along with the ring. Next patch if they don't fix iLvLs, we are essentially going to have the ring effect (+200 primary each infinite trait) as a catch up, which I don't think is enough. TF/WF makes sense in content that isn't the hardest content in the game, hoping that you get TF/WF gear in the HARDEST content in the game just to get upgrades doesn't really make sense. Imagine if there wasn't such a thing as TF at all in Mythic NH, and the base iLvL of the loot was just high enough that you could only conceivably get sockets or at most +10 iLvLs? It would make loot a lot more useful.

As much as I hated ToV (because of how it was tuned), I think a system where the drops from the instance are a bit less prone to massive swings because of WF/TF feel better for Mythic raiding. For those of you who didn't raid Mythic ToV, Odyn and Guarm loot could only WF a bonus 5 iLvLs and Helya's loot couldn't even WF. If the first 3 bosses in NH dropped 910-915 loot, the next 6 dropped 915-920 loot, and Gul'dan dropped 920-925 loot, you would probably insure that all loot would be good, and the only RNG on the loot is for sockets and minor WF at best.

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Koenigstiger

preach

I don't know who it is. Why it should even matter if what he said was true?

Originally Posted by Koenigstiger

891 average ilvl

Why are you twisting things with fake data you made up from your head? How did you split legendaries and weapon itemlevel from the rest? Answer: you didn't.

Originally Posted by Creraria

killin Krosus faster skips the Orb -> Slam -> Orb combo, potentially allowing to 2 heal it (if you have a prot pally for another raid cd earlier) which means an even faster killtime, since you can take another dps

Why no one does that?

**shonist** · 2017-03-21, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Raiju

Guessing since you said since launch you didn't tank in mop/wod, therefore it's natural that you may not appreciate what tanks lost this expansion

yes i have tanked on WoD. the whole xpac. since launch till the last 2 or3 months of hfc.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Kalador

someone does for you, 150+ $ a year is not Fucking cheap for a video game.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes it is. and its because wow is too good for a video game. So, basics here, better game than the average video game. Bigger price than the avergae video game.

Of course, cheap and expensive depends on your wallet.

**styil** · 2017-03-21, 12:24 PM

The game is almost 13 years old. We no longer have the time and patience to wait around for 12 months for a raid to get progessively nerfed.

The process needs to be sped up.

**Ebalina** · 2017-03-21, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by kamuimac

what the actual f... happened with "we raid for chalenge" "we want chalenging content" that 3/4 of those forums were whining about for past 10 years ?

finally admiting that it was all a lie ?

and that you only raid for shiny loot and all bs about wanting chalenging content was nonsense from get go ?

if you people have so much fun clearing hc in 2 hours for tf then why even have mythic in game - clearly you would be more happy with just hc and loot tf to 925 - because you dont give rats ass about chalenge.

mythic + are proving it so painfully when people spam +9-+12 over and over again instead push for +20 because it doesnt drop loot why do it - its so well proving that next to nobody wants chalenging content - all that people want is high itlv purple as so that others dont get them so they can wave their e-pens around

There is a thing called challenge.
But it should be done after you spend a day/week/month progressing and then killing the boss.
When you know the boss inside out but you wipe to it on ur farm raids you put that to ppl been dumb/dc/something stupid happened.

Now when i go to krosus and we miss a dumb add soak and ppl just yolo it after we've killed it 8 times or something and outgear it by miles this add explodes again an we wipe now that is not challenging that is just dumb design from blizzard allowing a mechanic to kill you even after you've farmed the boss to oblivion and spend time progressing it.

This is what he is talking about but you are 2 butthurt to see it.

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ebalina

There is a thing called challenge.
But it should be done after you spend a day/week/month progressing and then killing the boss.
When you know the boss inside out but you wipe to it on ur farm raids you put that to ppl been dumb/dc/something stupid happened.

Now when i go to krosus and we miss a dumb add soak and ppl just yolo it after we've killed it 8 times or something and outgear it by miles this add explodes again an we wipe now that is not challenging that is just dumb design from blizzard allowing a mechanic to kill you even after you've farmed the boss to oblivion and spend time progressing it.

This is what he is talking about but you are 2 butthurt to see it.

I'll call BS on your argument untill Tomb is out and farmed Nighthold mythic the highest difficulty raiding content currently in the game shouldn't be Yolo we'll just suck up the insane DMG of this mechanic just because we outgear by a few Ilvls

**Fenryn** · 2017-03-21, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by earth127

I'll call BS on your argument untill Tomb is out and farmed Nighthold mythic the highest difficulty raiding content currently in the game shouldn't be Yolo we'll just suck up the insane DMG of this mechanic just because we outgear by a few Ilvls

Let me guess, you don't raid Mythic do you?

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Soulwell

Anyone watching mike preach and taking him seriously is pretty stupid. He does nothing but complain about literally anything there is to complain about. He has good legendaries and every parse he has is grey or green. He clearly gets carried by whatever guild is blind to how bad he is all for little 14 year olds to notice them in lfr.

If you want to call not having a single mythic kill when the first 3 bosses are easier than guldan raiding you go ahead and live in your fantasy fairy world.

Parses don't matter if you're guild is doing fights the way they are intended, take into factors such as individual player skill and the resources available to your guild as a whole (luck with loot): this shows how little you know about raid progression, also his 'complaining' is considered by most people as being critical.
Nothing objective about your post, MOVE MATE HOW ABOUT PVP THO

**Meiffert** · 2017-03-21, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Annoy-o-tron

Why no one does that?

Because nobody is farming yet.

There are only a few dozen of guilds that have even cleared mythic NH. Of those that did:
1. Many of them don't even share logs publicly.
2. Some guilds have been extending, others were reclearing with setup optimized for later (progression) bosses, not for speed kills.
3. Guilds are bringing other players who were benched on progression to get them the achievement.
4. Players reroll for classes they expect to play in Tomb and bring them to gear them up.

Why are we comparing the kill time reduction between progress/first kill and current, which is realistically still progress/first kill for most guilds? Of course the difference will be minor at this point.

On the other hand in HFC, there was a patch a few month down the line that introduced Valor points, increasing all your gear by extra 10 ilvls, people eventually brought "faster" setups for clears etc. (we had something like 12 arcane mages at some point).

Obviously the situation is completely different.
Wait for 7.2, then another 6 months and then we can have another look at how much the kill times went down.

Now I admit that the throughput is more front-loaded this time around.
Legendaries are fixed 940 ilvl, AP was farmed to maximum by most mythic players by now (in comparison, rings took much longer to max out in HFC) and titanforged dungeon trinkets/items are not very farmable, meaning you either had them from the start or you are likely not going to have them for a while yet.

There is a difference in ability to overgear and speed up the kills, but it is also blown way out of proportion in my opinion.

@ heroic Gul'dan item level
I think you are misunderstanding the ilvl argument: you claim that hypothetical full heroic Gul'dan gear would be 895, but that is simply wrong. 3 895 relics would mean 918 ilvl weapon and taking 2 legendaries into account, the resulting average ilvl would be 903. That is with no WF/TF in the mix at all.

Deleted · 2017-03-21, 01:06 PM