No sense of progression in Nighthold - Preach video

[Banard]

also...

this is the first i heard of "mike preach"....and hopefully the last. ....pointless banter to get people to talk. I would say he is stupid but a 14 page forum post about his stream? Don Draper would be proud.

[Meiffert]

6 months away it's going to be ToS as current raid. With similar issues. Why would NH killtimes matter?

Well, that's the thing, isn't it?
Why did HFC killtimes matter once the instance was nerfed to the ground?

Let's do a better thing: rather than looking at the final (and very long and nerfed directly and indirectly multiple times) tier of an expansion, let's look at the last instance of the first tier, which is basicaly exactly the equivalent of Nighthold: Blackrok Foundry.

The average kill times from last two weeks before HFC release.
Blast Furnace and Iron Maiden still took over 10 minutes.
Blackhand, Kromog, Thogar still took over 7 minutes.
Gruul (the Krosus of BRF with the exact same 6 minute enrage): 5 minutes, 31 seconds

These are only ~ 10 % improvements over first kills on those bosses, on some bosses even smaller (graph of average kill times over time).


Seems to me that it is the valor item level increases (SoO, HFC) or 30 % blanket nerfs (ICC, Dragon Soul) that are the major cause for easy super fast clears on farm, rather than anything new brought up by Legion.


Now, just so we are clear: I personally really dislike unlimited titanforging and non-capped AP grinding for minor benefits.

But as the main claim of this thread goes (that Legion changes were the major factor of farm being difficult and kill times more consistent than in the past), the data just doesn't support it.

[Deleted]

The average kill times from last two weeks before HFC release.
Blast Furnace and Iron Maiden still took over 10 minutes.

But that's 50th percentile. Or people who just started doing them.

For longer farms it looked like this.
And you are completely missing a point that this guy in video said: bosses are being designed to prevent fun cheese strats: skorp has damage reduction, unsoaked things do raid damage without possibility to strategically ignore them and so on. They even hotfixed what could've been farm strats. Most notable of them: Ilgynoth 1-phase(happened too early) or ignoring an add on Augur.

Now, just so we are clear: I personally really dislike unlimited titanforging and non-capped AP grinding for minor benefits.

That's what I'm saying: all those other major nerfs weren't affecting next incoming raid. TF+valor graded item from ToT had worse itemlevel than normal SoO item.
Now just AP system will. And titanforging exists too. Because you'll be allowed to farm it before next raid is going to open. And of course that will have an effect on ToS requirements.
Might happen a situation that doing progression in HN won't be worth doing over farming endless m+ once you're done with clearing stuff you already done progressing before 7.2.

[Deleted]

Whether Preach is an asshole, a crybaby, a whiner or anything else is irrelevant to the discussion and an ad hominem argument. The fact is that he's 8/10 M and he has experienced enough mythic raiding to express some kind of opinion on the matter.

People posting here that haven't killed any boss past trilliax clearly CAN'T know how these things work and their opinion can only be based on guessing and fanboying.

When you're killing Krosus and Spellblade for the 7th time and you still wipe because one add soak got fucked or one guy was too late moving with frost mark, and then you compare that to every single previous tier you understand something's fucked.

And the reasons are obvious, it's because most of the character power came from legendaries, 54 traits and 900 ilvl, which people already had when they first killed those bosses. Most players progressing mythic get 0-2 upgrades per week that are very minuscule due to how titanforging works.

[Sarevokcz]

Well, that's the thing, isn't it?
Why did HFC killtimes matter once the instance was nerfed to the ground?

Let's do a better thing: rather than looking at the final (and very long and nerfed directly and indirectly multiple times) tier of an expansion, let's look at the last instance of the first tier, which is basicaly exactly the equivalent of Nighthold: Blackrok Foundry.

The average kill times from last two weeks before HFC release.
Blast Furnace and Iron Maiden still took over 10 minutes.
Blackhand, Kromog, Thogar still took over 7 minutes.
Gruul (the Krosus of BRF with the exact same 6 minute enrage): 5 minutes, 31 seconds

These are only ~ 10 % improvements over first kills on those bosses, on some bosses even smaller (graph of average kill times over time).


Seems to me that it is the valor item level increases (SoO, HFC) or 30 % blanket nerfs (ICC, Dragon Soul) that are the major cause for easy super fast clears on farm, rather than anything new brought up by Legion.


Now, just so we are clear: I personally really dislike unlimited titanforging and non-capped AP grinding for minor benefits.

But as the main claim of this thread goes (that Legion changes were the major factor of farm being difficult and kill times more consistent than in the past), the data just doesn't support it.

50th percentile? isnt that like averaging only sub 50% logs, as in averaging already below average results?

I like this graph better https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=1000&sample=7

edit: oh, i see, its best timer. anyway, guilds "farming" mythic NH now arent 50% parse guilds anyway, so 90th percentile graph over the entire tier is still probably more fair

[kamuimac]

There is a thing called challenge.
But it should be done after you spend a day/week/month progressing and then killing the boss.
When you know the boss inside out but you wipe to it on ur farm raids you put that to ppl been dumb/dc/something stupid happened.

Now when i go to krosus and we miss a dumb add soak and ppl just yolo it after we've killed it 8 times or something and outgear it by miles this add explodes again an we wipe now that is not challenging that is just dumb design from blizzard allowing a mechanic to kill you even after you've farmed the boss to oblivion and spend time progressing it.

This is what he is talking about but you are 2 butthurt to see it.

why are you blaiming blizzard for your raiders fucking up mechanic ? its purely theit fault. just because its farm it doesnt mean they should be able to ignore obvious mechanics

- - - Updated - - -

And the reasons are obvious, it's because most of the character power came from legendaries, 54 traits and 900 ilvl, which people already had when they first killed those bosses.s.

thats their problem for abusing what was supposed to be alternative to raiding

nobody forced them - if they wanted very bi upgrades every kill they shouldnt farm mythic + so extensively - and in resoult they wouldnt burn out so much

[Meiffert]

But that's 50th percentile. Or people who just started doing them.

50th percentile? isnt that like averaging only sub 50% logs, as in averaging already below average results?

Yeah, I wanted to look at the average, but you are right that the higher percentile will have longer farm times.
Blackrock vs. Nighthold.

Taking into account that Nighthold has been out for a shorter amount of time, the decrease seems similar imo.
Skorpyron, which has the anti-cheese mechanics baked into the fight, has gone down by about 20 %.

Also, it's not like this is the first time there are mechanics preventing speed kills. Just remember Hellfire Assault.

[borisshayo]

Ooh, butthurt from the Preach fanbois in this thread is REAL. CAN I GET A HOLLA BALLERZ?

Wonderful

Wonder how long before they go full Trumptard and start shouting "FAKE NEWS! SAD!"

LOL

Are you having an episode or something?

[Ebalina]

why are you blaiming blizzard for your raiders fucking up mechanic ? its purely theit fault. just because its farm it doesnt mean they should be able to ignore obvious mechanics

- - - Updated - - -



thats their problem for abusing what was supposed to be alternative to raiding

nobody forced them - if they wanted very bi upgrades every kill they shouldnt farm mythic + so extensively - and in resoult they wouldnt burn out so much

You are clueless, like its ridicules i even respond to you.
You have no idea or sense of raiding.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I wanted to look at the average, but you are right that the higher percentile will have longer farm times.
Blackrock vs. Nighthold.

BRF had much more noticeable reduction in kill times until people got enough gear. In Nighthold people already farmed almost everything. Method killed Blackhand in 688 with him dropping 700. Method killed Guldan in 905 with him dropping 905. Even with weapon and legendaries inflating itemlevel there's not much potential to get noticeably stronger if you only log for weekly mythic reclear.

Just remember Hellfire Assault.

And who liked that encounter?

anti-cheese mechanics

Except every fight has it in some form. Also there's much less personal immunity abilites that help with cheesing. And they don't even do anything.

[Deleted]

why are you blaiming blizzard for your raiders fucking up mechanic ? its purely theit fault. just because its farm it doesnt mean they should be able to ignore obvious mechanics

- - - Updated - - -



thats their problem for abusing what was supposed to be alternative to raiding

nobody forced them - if they wanted very bi upgrades every kill they shouldnt farm mythic + so extensively - and in resoult they wouldnt burn out so much

You keep posting that bullshit about self control in every thread but I hope you realize (for your own sake) that until you post your armory and your logs proving you killed bosses after trilliax without having >50 traits on the entire raid you seem like a clueless troll/clown/fanboy.

Keep it civil

[Deleted]

Easy.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=18 with guild itemlevel being less than 895 there are only 3 bosses are being attainable for killing. 895 is heroic guldan level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=20 without being at least 902 you won't be able to kill Star Augur. It is almost mythic level of loot.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...eed&bracket=21 Gul'dan needs at least 905 itemlevel.

So yes, you either need to farm every piece of gear from mythic raids to clear it. Or rely on titanforging.

Please come back when you start doing anything harder than raid finder before suggesting how mythic raiding should look like.

So mythic raiding shuold look like what a player say and not what a game developer make... interesting... maybe my grandfather shuold be producing and projecting cars since he is driving for like 60+ years?

Because that's what you are telling us. You are maybe more competent then me, but for sure not more then someone who's job is creating that stuff.

[Sulika]

Both Preach and Asmogold missed the real cause of the problem, which is Master Loot and the extent to which it enables split raiding.

The master loot system enables split raiding which means that the few guilds who are competing for world firsts can funnel 3 months worth of farm onto every member of the raid in the two weeks of heroic clears they get before they first enter. It forces Blizzard to either balance Mythic around the assumption that guilds progressing on the bosses have several months worth of heroic farm on every member or totally trivialise the world first race.

Titanforging obviously brings it's own range of issues, but they can't balance bosses for the masses who clear heroic on one character once a week and simultaneously make a real challenge for guilds who will abuse split raiding to such an extent. Looking at wow progress there are about 5500 guilds who have killed one or more Mythic bosses in Nighthold. There are only 1400 guilds who have a gear ilvl as good as Exorsus had on the world first Gul'dan kill. Of course guilds are struggling to make progress, a month and a half of farm after the first kill and the vast majority of them still don't even have gear as good as the best guilds in the world had for their first kills. There is something wrong when almost two months after the world first kill most guilds don't even have gear as good as that which was used for the world first. Farming gear should be the games catch up mechanism but split farming lets guilds abuse the catch up mechanism for an advantage, but once the game is balanced around the assumption of that type of play then you have a game that is balanced around a very specific form of loot system abuse which lets people get six weeks worth of loot drops for their character each week almost completely circumventing the raid lockout system which exists to prevent this. Whereas before the world first race took place with guilds in the previous tiers best gear, now the world first race takes place with guilds in the current tiers best gear. Which is fine, except that all the other guilds who used be able to farm their way and, over the length of the raid tier gradually start to outgear the content slightly now at the end of the raid tier their gear still isn't even good enough to take on the content.

Heroic farm should be the catch up mechanism that allows the other guilds to get their kills. Split raiding and more importantly balancing around it is what is making progress all but impossible for most guilds. You end up with the ridiculous situation where a boss that drops 910 ilvl items has to be balanced so that the best guild in the world needs an average ilvl of 905 on their gear to beat him, contrast this with the 893 ilvl they had when they did their last Mythic Helya kill before Nighthold launched. In the two weeks between Nighthold launching and their first kill, the average player in their raid gained 12 ilvls in loot. Get rid of master loot, and with it split raiding and Mythic Gul'dan could have been balanced around a challenging world first for a guild in ilvl 895 gear, had that been the case a lot of guilds could gradually farm their way into progress, as it stands, even after months of farming heroic the vast majority of guilds still haven't even reached the item level for which the encounter is balanced.

It's also why there is no change in kill times, the encounters are balanced around being pretty much maxed out for the raid tier before you even attempt the fight. The world first kill of Gul'dan was done in 904.72 ilvl gear, the highest ilvl guild in the world right now is 913.34. Less than 9 ilvl of an increase. So they are all complaining that after months of farming the content their gear has gained less than 10 ilvls. What they don't mention is that a lot of the reason for that is because in the first two weeks of the raid tier they abused the hell out of split raids and master loot to make sure everyone in their main raid group gained about 12 ilvls in a fortnight. Remove master loot, and with it split raiding and balance around that assumption and we would see guilds going from ilvl 895 on first kills to 915 after farming the content. A 20 ilvl increase, now that is significant enough to make the encounter a lot more trivial. The problem isn't that the gear doesn't scale, the problem is that the game is balanced around the assumption that the first people to try the encounters will already have pretty much maxed out heroic gear on everyone in the raid even though it is only 2 weeks since heroic launched.

I suspect, though I won't presume to speak for them, that even the world first competitor guilds would rather be able to run heroic once on their mains and start in on Mythic when it launches than to have to farm to same instance on heroic six times every week. It would also open up the competition to a lot more guilds. The only real loss is that it makes it harder for less hardcore guilds to manage their loot such that a player can get a single item they miss or finish a 4 piece set bonus but that's a much easier problem for Blizzard to solve. The world first race could have been every bit as competitive and every bit as interesting had the guilds competing been doing so in pre-nighthold gear with 2 or 3 nighthold pieces per character instead of full heroic nighthold gear from day one. The difference is we would see a world first from a guild in 895 gear and would be now seeing a lot of other guilds doing the content having farmed their way up to 900 over time, instead we saw a world first at 905 and now we are seeing a bunch of guilds who have farmed their way up to 900 and still haven't a hope in hell of doing the content.

Balancing Mythic around the assumption of split raiding is the problem and the easiest way to fix that is to get rid of Master Loot. Now without doing something about the potential to infinitely farm Mythic+ that would just move the problem slightly but again that is solvable by putting some kind of loot lockout in place there too. It's just not possible to balance a game for two groups of players, one of whom is funnelling gear to their characters six times faster than the other. Trying to do so either makes the game trivial for the first group or all but impossible for the second which is the situation we are in now.

[Deleted]

It's mostly just because of guilds require way too much and people get exausted.

[Emancptr]

There are only 1400 guilds who have a gear ilvl as good as Exorsus had on the world first Gul'dan kill.

So why are there only 60 guilds in the world that have killed Mythic Gul'dan? Why haven't the 1400 guilds that have the same ilvl as Exorsus killed Mythic Gul'dan?

It's because their player skill isn't anywhere near the top level. Guilds past World Top 100-200 have always required additional gear to clear content, whether it is through ilvl boosts or Legendaries (Ring/Cape). Neither of those mechanics exist in Legion and most guilds past World Top 100 will require 10-15 more ilvls than the guilds that killed it first. How are guilds in this range supposed to get 915-920 ilvl gear to clear Mythic Gul'dan? The only possible answer is warforging/titanforging rng (which sucks) or Blizzard straight nerfing the content (which also sucks).

Your argument is that Blizzard should have tuned Mythic bosses easier and limited split farm (Making Gul'dan require 895ish ilvl). With Legendaries and weapon relics you're looking at a boost of ~6-8 ilvl over the average for the rest of their gear. This means for your average raid to be 895 ilvl, the average gear (excluding Legendaries/Weapon) would have to be ~888 (lower than what drops from Heroic Nighthold). World Top 10 raiders were well above this benchmark before going into Heroic NH (Here's Limit's last Helya kill before Heroic Nighthold Release. They had 904.9 ilvl.)

Which leads to my second point. The reality is that split farm did not increase ilvl for any guilds in the World top 5-10. Split farming actually reduced their ilvl as they replaced higher ilvl pieces for tier pieces of a lower item level (unless their tier gear warforged/titanforged).

The problem is not split farming. The problem is Legendaries' Power, AP Traits (you started NH at 54 therefore there was no natural growth through more traits), and Warforging/Titanforging completely eliminating upgrades from new content (outside of tier pieces and Warforging/Titanforging Mythic Gear).

[Mirishka]

There are far too many "this person on Youtube said this, so it must be true!" topics on these forums.

[KaPe]

There are far too many "this person on Youtube said this, so it must be true!" topics on these forums.

There are far too many people on these forums who accuse others of agreeing with the messenger instead of the message. His opinion on that subject happens to be similar to mine - not entirely - which is why I agree with this video. There are other people who think the same.

Meanwhile, you're basically grouping them up under "it's just Youtuber's X fanboys, they'd agree with him no matter what he'd say", which is pretty insulting. It's either this, some made up stuff about "oh, he failed in Mythic so he's whining now" or "pff, it's X, he always says useless bullshit".

[stevenho]

So why are there only 60 guilds in the world that have killed Mythic Gul'dan? Why haven't the 1400 guilds that have the same ilvl as Exorsus killed Mythic Gul'dan?

It's because their player skill isn't anywhere near the top level.

Skill is one thing, but there are other factors. One of the big ones for example is that during WF race Exorsus (and all other guilds aiming for WF) raided as much or more every day as those 1400 guilds raid every week. Suddenly 2 weeks progression compared to 3 months progression comes out to exactly the same raid hours...
Something to think about.

[TriHard]

Preach? More like bitch, cause that's all he does. I swear he bitches about everything.

People need to stop being tiny little babies and accept the game for what it is. And frankly, NH has been one of the most amazing raids mechanic as well as visual wise in YEARS. The game has it's flaws, but that's mostly due to Blizzard always taking one step forward and then two steps back.

He is just dragging out what little relevancy he's got left until his channel is dead, thus the 10 min videos that nets him more ad revenue.
It seriously bugs the hell out of me when people do that shit and especially when they think their opinion matter.

Have some respect for yourself dude, people watched you for the guides, not your worthless opinions.

- - - Updated - - -

There are far too many "this person on Youtube said this, so it must be true!" topics on these forums.

Exactly, finally someone with a functional brain.

[Emancptr]

Skill is one thing, but there are other factors. One of the big ones for example is that during WF race Exorsus (and all other guilds aiming for WF) raided as much or more every day as those 1400 guilds raid every week. Suddenly 2 weeks progression compared to 3 months progression comes out to exactly the same raid hours...
Something to think about.

Think most guilds were 7/10 Mythic in under 12 hours /played. Why aren't there 1400 guilds at 7/10 Mythic. Pretty sure those 1400 guilds have spent more than 12 hours in Nighthold by now. Point stands.