Vengeance DH M+

[leeb23]

Hello, I just got into vengeance on my demon hunter. I was wondering what are the best talents for m+?

[Veiled Shadow]

You should check guides; the answers to these sorts of questions are readily available therein.

To answer, though:
Abyssal Strike (can use Razor Spikes w/ 4pc)
Burning Alive
Flame Crash
Fracture
Sigil of Chains
Fel Devastation (or Spirit Bomb, if you choose this then take Fallout instead of Burning Alive)
Soul Barrier

in general. Outside of Flame Crash tier almost every talent has some conceivable use in M+, though, so this isn't set in stone.

[Asphodel]

It depends on the affixes. My standard build tho is pretty much the same as above, except that I always take Razor Spikes (except with Necrotic), and Feed the Demon in stead of Fracture, as Feed the Demon with Razor Spikes does more multi target dps than Fracture. On weeks with Tyranical I use Fracture and Felblade.

[kennyisnotdead]

Awesome info. Once you get to M+12 and have a 4pc does the spec and playstyle change significantly? This week is teeming, skittish, and fortified how do you guys typically approach that.

[Mordrathor]

This week is teeming, skittish, and fortified how do you guys typically approach that.

By not playing.

Seriously though, it's a really rough week for tanks that aren't Protect Pallies. My advice would be to run with mostly Hunters and, to a lesser extent, Rogues and have them spam Misdirect/Tricks on you.

[Temp name]

Awesome info. Once you get to M+12 and have a 4pc does the spec and playstyle change significantly? This week is teeming, skittish, and fortified how do you guys typically approach that.

Find 1-2 hunters and bribe them into doing your weekly 15 with me. I sure am not doing teeming+skittish without at least 1 hunter.

4pc allows you to have DS up more often, but outside of that it doesn't change. Higher M+ means you're more likely to die, but unless you're <880 you probably won't have any issues until 14-15, at which point swapping to Last Resort instead of Soul Barrier might be worth it.

[Taladendren]

Just play with more ST dps (or AoE dps that aren't as good..).

Immo (w/ fallout) -> Spirit bomb spam -> fracture -> more spirit bomb spam with defensives thrown in between spirit bombs does the trick for me. It's only super strong AoE dps that can pull since I'm running 500-800k on trash packs doing that.

For bosses, the key is to taunt on cd (or close to it) and concentrate burst damage right after you taunt - there's an increased threat gen window right after taunt. Assuming you have an issue at all, the only time I've had issues is with classes with super strong openers.

[Tech614]

Find 1-2 hunters and bribe them into doing your weekly 15 with me. I sure am not doing teeming+skittish without at least 1 hunter.

Just go with a full ranged group if you don't have MD/tricks. Ranged have to pull a lot more threat to take aggro where as shit like fury or havoc can pull threat by sneezing on an aoe pack.

- - - Updated - - -

For bosses, the key is to taunt on cd (or close to it) and concentrate burst damage right after you taunt - there's an increased threat gen window right after taunt. Assuming you have an issue at all, the only time I've had issues is with classes with super strong openers.

For bosses you shouldn't need to taunt period(after opening one for burst threat with CDs), you pop all your CDs and threat is laughable. It's aoe packs or bosses with lots of adds where skittish is a pain when you have strong aoe melee in the group.

[UNHEILVOLL]

From my short experience, in skitish week, you just tell your dps to not do any damage the first 3 seconds on the pull and that's it.

[Tech614]

From my short experience, in skitish week, you just tell your dps to not do any damage the first 3 seconds on the pull and that's it.

This doesn't help in the least if they go AoE ham after that 3 seconds. Single targeting what ever the tank is currently targeting with minimal AoE for some time is a much better solution.

[Klustaphuckw]

Just go with a full ranged group if you don't have MD/tricks. Ranged have to pull a lot more threat to take aggro where as shit like fury

For bosses you shouldn't need to taunt period(after opening one for burst threat with CDs), you pop all your CDs and threat is laughable. It's aoe packs or bosses with lots of adds where skittish is a pain when you have strong aoe melee in the group.

Disagree with popping everything and threat bring laughable. Along comes a warrior popping cds and using a draught of souls. No more threat

[Veiled Shadow]

Disagree with popping everything and threat bring laughable. Along comes a warrior popping cds and using a draught of souls. No more threat

It's not like Skittish reduces the tank threat modifier from +900% to zero; you are still generating more threat than an individual DPS. Given that you can be bursting for 1m+ on ST as Vengeance (and even higher than this with things like the Archimonde trinket), there is no reason you should be dropping threat with an opener like that and taunt.

[Raiju]

It's not like Skittish reduces the tank threat modifier from +900% to zero; you are still generating more threat than an individual DPS. Given that you can be bursting for 1m+ on ST as Vengeance (and even higher than this with things like the Archimonde trinket), there is no reason you should be dropping threat with an opener like that and taunt.

Warriors & DH's burst 3M ST fairly easily on bosses, depending on builds. Warrior shouldn't be an issue with taunt after draught but DH is going to be sustaining a million basically for the entire a million, with 2-3m for 10~ seconds at the start

This assuming they're not running demonic (where they'll get aggro off you on trash but just tank it all anyway on skittish)

[Veiled Shadow]

Warriors & DH's burst 3M ST fairly easily on bosses, depending on builds. Warrior shouldn't be an issue with taunt after draught but DH is going to be sustaining a million basically for the entire a million, with 2-3m for 10~ seconds at the start

This assuming they're not running demonic (where they'll get aggro off you on trash but just tank it all anyway on skittish)

Well yes, that's mostly the point. During the opener you are generating triple threat, and in most cases a DH likely isn't going to triple your opener. Let's say that you get bad crits and the stars align for them so that the difference is a factor of about 3, in that case you still won't lose threat as you generate more threat per damage dealt to begin with and you still have +200% threat gen from taunt.

Also I am fairly certain that warrior openers (in a 15s window, say) with draught are generally around 2m - would love to see a log where it's 3m.

[Raiju]

Taunt lasts 3 seconds for your threat window (or is it 2 even?) that's nothing in the scope of a havoc.

[Tech614]

Taunt lasts 3 seconds for your threat window (or is it 2 even?) that's nothing in the scope of a havoc.

Which is enough for brand, infernal strike(with flame crash) soul carver and fel devastation and is an instant ass load of threat skittish or not. Not to mention you're still doing a lot of threat afterwards as you still have another infernal strike, sigil of flame and a fully stocked razor spikes ready to start physical damage.

If you're having trouble holding threat on a single target boss it's a L2P issue.

[Raiju]

Which is enough for brand, infernal strike(with flame crash) fel devastation and another infernal strike and is an instant ass load of threat skittish or not.

If you're having trouble holding threat on a single target boss it's a L2P issue.

I'm speaking from the dps POV - but I doubt the tank in question has massive L2P issues since noone else (we don't have any good warriors we run dungeons with generally) gives him threat problems.

In pure numbers, if you're bursting a million on skittish and they're bursting over 3m (I think I've spiked 3.7 before) you lose aggro. You can throw around "L2P" and stuff, but 1m ST burst isn't L2P for vengeance - it's very respectable. As soon as the taunt window modifer % is over they're catching up, and then its a game of cat & mouse with your taunt cd giving you leads vs their higher 'sustain' - for the first 10-30 seconds of the fight.

In the same regard, most tanks I've played with don't notice EVERY aggro drop, and it really doesn't matter for a havoc in meta unless the boss can oneshot them - they're most likely going to dodge the hit anyway.

I've never had the grace to play with a havoc at a similar gear/level to myself as vengeanc, but I have no illusions that it'd make skittish a challenge without any MD.

[Tech614]

In the same regard, most tanks I've played with don't notice EVERY aggro drop, and it really doesn't matter for a havoc in meta unless the boss can oneshot them - they're most likely going to dodge the hit anyway.

If a tank doesn't notice an aggro drop then they have a massive fucking L2P issue going on.

"It's not a L2P issue but the tank doesn't even notice he is failing at the very purpose of his character" I lol'd.

If a vengeance is bursting 1 mil and a havoc 3 mil the havoc is not going to pull threat. Vengeance is going to be about +75% ahead in the burst and can maintain a +25% lead well after that fairly easy. I always run with a havoc DH, ST burst is never an issue with skittish. Ever. AoE is a different story.

[Raiju]

When you're tanking 10 mobs and you only notice 3/4 of them dropped aggro, or you didn't notice threat dropped between GCD's that you got back due to using a spike - yeah it's completely normal. Surprisingly people often aren't putting in 100% concentration in mythic+ because you're very rarely doing difficult content in them. Unless you're pushing high keys for the prestige you'll just be farming 10-17 region.

Also have you considered your havoc is either not very good or running a different build for skittish? Given skittish is also bolstering on both occasions IIRC it makes sense to run demonic (no dangerous boss burst threat). The fact you lose on aoe suggests this to be the case

I mean maybe you're hopped up on crack for every key you do, but hey mistakes happen when you're farming easy content and noone cares if someone gets aggro on an affix where they're designed to.

[Asphodel]

Often DPS doesn't care what they are hitting, as long as they are hitting something. It amazes me how few tanks realize this, and consistently skull the mob they plan to get most threat on during skittish.

- - - Updated - - -

If a tank doesn't notice an aggro drop then they have a massive fucking L2P issue going on.

"It's not a L2P issue but the tank doesn't even notice he is failing at the very purpose of his character" I lol'd.

If a vengeance is bursting 1 mil and a havoc 3 mil the havoc is not going to pull threat. Vengeance is going to be about +75% ahead in the burst and can maintain a +25% lead well after that fairly easy. I always run with a havoc DH, ST burst is never an issue with skittish. Ever. AoE is a different story.

No-one cares about ST threat during skittish, and indeed it's either not an issue or can be fixed with a simple taunt. So why keep making a big fuss about it?