[TV] Marvel's Iron Fist

[Daitan]

I liked the show to start off, especially because of Danny Rand's gentle nature. Started getting bored half-way through the season, though. It was a bit hard to believe that Danny Rand would work so hard to earn the Iron Fist and then not take his duties that seriously, even considering his parents' deaths. His emotional states (other than calmness), especially anger, weren't that compelling.

The fights were passable. But then I watched Into the Badlands S2E1 and realized how much better fights can be.

Overall, I liked the show, but it could have been a lot better.

[Stormcall]

Conclusion: The fighting is really great guys, it's just not unrealistic, or enough to pass as not being humanly impossible, like at the edge of a persons ablity to do stuff, and this is an iron fist who's just gotten his powers, and not grown into them or himself fully yyet. I did enjoy the fight scenes, and i still find them cool when i look back at the whole thing

His fighting skills even look terrible as a strictly human, non-super powered level. This fight scene was filmed in 1 day, and was largely improvised by the 2 actors, no wirework, just 2 high level martial artists doing their thing. Either one of these dudes would beat Iron Fist so badly his children would feel it:


Here's another example of 2 expert martial artists showing what they can do with no super powers, no wire work, just 2 fighters putting on an expertly choreographed fight scene that showcases their skills. Again, against either of these 2 dudes, the only time Iron Fist would make contact with them was when his body was coming into contact with their hands, feet, elbows, or knees...cause he sure as fuck wouldn't be landing any actual hits:

[Svifnymr]

I liked the show to start off, especially because of Danny Rand's gentle nature. Started getting bored half-way through the season, though. It was a bit hard to believe that Danny Rand would work so hard to earn the Iron Fist and then not take his duties that seriously, even considering his parents' deaths. His emotional states (other than calmness), especially anger, weren't that compelling.

I think he did a good job of presenting his emotions, but that they weren't so well explained in the process. Sure, there were a couple of scenes where someone would just SAY something, but other than 2 flashbacks (snow-death and monk-beat-down), they never explored the actual feelings and their sources.
A young man loses his parents and gets taken in by monks. He is then taught language, martial arts, and how to take a beating. He focuses on the top objective of fighting a pair of glowy eyes in a dark cave, wins, but doesn't feel any real victory in it. The path is now open to the outside world all of a sudden, so off he goes to fight his way back to NY. We don't see any of his fight club wins that bought him passage and a passport, because budget was blown on that snow-death flashback.

He has survivors guilt, and a lot of anger, which his super-duper masters taught him to just ignore and focus on training, though again, why flashback to something other than monk-beat-down to establish things like an angry young child crying and being told to conceal, don't feel.


I never read Iron Fist stuff, but this Danny Rand didn't seem to understand why he had to defend Kun Lun any better than the audience did, really. Why is it so special? He achieved his goal and then realized how empty it was, but I don't think it really mattered to a lot of us because there is no real explanation as to WHY that matters. I assume that the capture/destruction of the city would be a world-threatening event, but in the story, nope. It's just a monastery with some monks who do nothing but protect the monastery.

The fights were passable. But then I watched Into the Badlands S2E1 and realized how much better fights can be.

I also have the advantage of not caring about the fights. They are a vehicle for plot, rather than a scene to be admired for me. The only one I watched intently for it's own sake was the drunken master, and I don't think they did it very well.

Overall, I liked the show, but it could have been a lot better.

As Sky High said above, it felt like b-team, even though I liked it better than the others. DD2 got the Hand trying to unleash Black Sky and all that, but Iron Fist gets Gao's heroin (DD1 rehash) and Immortal Harold and also the Hand trying to recruit street kids. There was blood draining in that basement, but they didn't go into anything with it.

[Deleted]

Binged it over a few days. While I was able to get some enjoyment out of it, it was certainly an incredibly flawed show and by far the weakest of the Netflix series'. The main problems as I see it -

It was obviously very racially uncomfortable. A show steeped in asian mysticism, yet with only one good asian character and a white protagonist using asian culture to defeat armies of asian bad guys. If Danny had to be white, they could have at least addressed that in the show. JJ and LC both explored issues like rape and racism head on and did it with tact. Where was the discussion on cultural appropriation and white saviours in Iron Fist? Instead we get a white man teaching an asian woman how to practice martial arts in her own dojo and it is played completely straight. In terms of both gender and race it was one of the most patronising scenes I have seen on television in a long time.

They were too obsessed with grounding it. The source material is about dragons and magic ninjas. So whose idea was it to make half the season a mildly interesting soap about rich people?

Danny is just not a good protagonist. He's certainly a multi-faceted character but unfortunately those facets include such gems as "most infuriatingly naive person in the world." "angry man child." "patronising, pretentious white yoga dude." and "just a completely bland, blank slate." He varies from bland to straight up unlikeable.

Obviously having just finished the series today I haven't had the time to scrutinise the plot, but I feel like it doesn't hold up in a lot of places. The complete lack of police that are integral to the other series hurt the show's believability. The Hand didn't use it's leverage at times when it should (for example when Gao was captured, they knew where Claire's mum was, but never used that information). Why were Coleen's students initiated into the darker parts of the Hand before Coleen herself?

It did have some merit. I think the show delivered on complex and morally ambiguous characters. Harold and Ward in particular were very fleshed out, and I will admit that my expectations from the first episode of Ward being a straight up villain whilst Joy would be the obvious defector to Danny's side was flipped on it's head. Harold was I think a highlight of the show. Obviously there was never any doubt that he was not a good guy, but throughout the season there was a real question of how long his goal's would align with Danny's for, and just how sincere he was being at different points. At times he reminded me quite a lot of Sky/Daisy's dad on Agents of SHIELD. There was some potential in the Hand being revealed to have different factions as well, but because we never really get to see how Bakudo's Hand differed in goals to Gao's this ultimately results in a missed opportunity.

They did a good job at giving the mooks a lot of character. The Russian Twins, the Spider Lady and especially the Drunk Ninja were all a lot of fun.

If the show gets a second season I think we need a new showrunner and a major retool. The second season needs to directly address the racial criticisms of the show; it needs to take the show in a lighter and more fantastical direction with very little of the board meetings and corporate subplots; The fight choreography needs to greatly improve and also be more fantastical - let's pay homage to the old kung fu movies and have some crazy wire work, not to mention more use of the Iron Fist in general. And of course Danny needs to actually be a likeable character. Now that he's gotten over the angst of his parent's death he can hopefully become more friendly and happy go lucky.

oh and I also liked Coleen's yoga pants.

[Tradewind]

Whining about "cultural appropriation" is hilarious. Especially considering Danny Rand has been a rich white dude since he first appeared in comics in 1974. Is it so strange that a white dude is the hero of a Kung Fu show? I guess David Carradine shouldn't have done it either, what a jerk he was....may as well throw Jean Claude into the "damn white boys doing martial arts" pyre, fuck Chuck Norris too while we're at it.

Also seems kind of hypocritical to judge it from the position that anything to do with eastern mysticism or martial arts therefore must be done by an asian actor. Seems kind of type-cast'ish don't you think?

[Deleted]

Whining about "cultural appropriation" is hilarious. Especially considering Danny Rand has been a rich white dude since he first appeared in comics in 1974. Is it so strange that a white dude is the hero of a Kung Fu show? I guess David Carradine shouldn't have done it either, what a jerk he was....may as well throw Jean Claude into the "damn white boys doing martial arts" pyre, fuck Chuck Norris too while we're at it.

Also seems kind of hypocritical to judge it from the position that anything to do with eastern mysticism or martial arts therefore must be done by an asian actor. Seems kind of type-cast'ish don't you think?

Danny has always been white yes. But the original story can be criticised as well - this adaptation could have been an opportunity to rectify the problem. Even if they wanted to cast a white man as Danny, they could have at least addressed the topic and included more positive asian characters. As it is the plot of Ironfist is "white man becomes better at martial arts then all the asians and then proceeds to beat up loads of evil asians."

[Tradewind]

Danny has always been white yes. But the original story can be criticised as well - this adaptation could have been an opportunity to rectify the problem. Even if they wanted to cast a white man as Danny, they could have at least addressed the topic and included more positive asian characters. As it is the plot of Ironfist is "white man becomes better at martial arts then all the asians and then proceeds to beat up loads of evil asians."

Or they could just leave the source material alone and hope that people can look past skin colour for once.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jotaux]

Binged it over a few days. While I was able to get some enjoyment out of it, it was certainly an incredibly flawed show and by far the weakest of the Netflix series'. The main problems as I see it -

It was obviously very racially uncomfortable.

Stopped reading right there.

[Gallahadd]

I guess David Carradine shouldn't have done it either,

To be fair, wasn't that role meant to go to an Asian actor, and they recast because they didn't think the USA would buy an Asian lead? I mean, I agree with you on all your other points, but I think this was a slightly dodgy choice.

[Tradewind]

To be fair, wasn't that role meant to go to an Asian actor, and they recast because they didn't think the USA would buy an Asian lead? I mean, I agree with you on all your other points, but I think this was a slightly dodgy choice.

Bruce Lee was allegedly considered by the studio for his physicality, according to his wife's memoirs (which also controversially suggests he came up with the show concept) and that the decision not to have him was made because he wasn't mainstream enough yet. But Thorpe and Spielman both assert that Carradine was always their first choice, as they wanted the more calm and cool "warrior monk" style. So it's a bit of 40 year old he-said-she-said.

More to the point though, it was a great show and it ultimately didn't matter what race the lead actor was.

[Svifnymr]

A show steeped in asian mysticism, yet with only one good asian character and a white protagonist using asian culture to defeat armies of asian bad guys. If Danny had to be white, they could have at least addressed that in the show.

The only thing odd to me was that Davos had a british accent...

Instead we get a white man teaching an asian woman how to practice martial arts in her own dojo and it is played completely straight. In terms of both gender and race it was one of the most patronising scenes I have seen on television in a long time.

You mean you get a white man taught chinese kung fu, believing it is superior to a Japanese womans style and teaching her? Or do you think "Asian" is an appropriate category to throw all the diverse cultures into and ignore the difference between Japanese and Chinese?

When it comes to it, doesn't a white boy trained in chinese martial arts probably know more about Chinese martial arts than a Japanese woman trained in Japanese martial arts?

Hell, why not complain about the racially diverse Hand organization? You can't ONLY complain when it's a white guy...

It did have some merit. I think the show delivered on complex and morally ambiguous characters. Harold and Ward in particular were very fleshed out, and I will admit that my expectations from the first episode of Ward being a straight up villain whilst Joy would be the obvious defector to Danny's side was flipped on it's head. Harold was I think a highlight of the show.

it was nice to have supporting cast that worked well without being pigeon-holed. I think Bakudo was the only one that really didn't do well for me.

They did a good job at giving the mooks a lot of character. The Russian Twins, the Spider Lady and especially the Drunk Ninja were all a lot of fun.

If the show gets a second season I think we need a new showrunner and a major retool. The second season needs to directly address the racial criticisms of the show; it needs to take the show in a lighter and more fantastical direction with very little of the board meetings and corporate subplots; The fight choreography needs to greatly improve and also be more fantastical - let's pay homage to the old kung fu movies and have some crazy wire work, not to mention more use of the Iron Fist in general. And of course Danny needs to actually be a likeable character. Now that he's gotten over the angst of his parent's death he can hopefully become more friendly and happy go lucky.

oh and I also liked Coleen's yoga pants.

I don't think most of the shows should have a regular series, they should really merge them in many ways. I know Iron Fist and Luke Cage were comic buddies, but focusing on the Hand so much maybe IF and Daredevil would sync better. Luke Cage and JJ have history and similar powers. I mean, it'll be great to have them all in Defenders, but if they stick to their own series (plus Punisher!) it'll take years to get anything and lead to some of the series feeling less developed (like Iron Fist).

They do also need to reconcile him being a billionaire with him working with street level nobodies.

[Blur4stuff]

The ridiculous bullshit arguments about race shouldn't exist. Nothing in the IF story is racist, whitewashing, or any other dumb label that gets used. This alone makes it impossible to trust reviews. Almost all people who work for publications are deathly afraid of appearing racist against anyone not white or appearing to not take the "correct" side of an issue that hits social media.

After watching most of the series, I would agree it isn't on the quality level of DD. I'm enjoying it about as much as I did LC and maybe slightly less than JJ, but that could be my Tennant bias coming through.

I'd agree the fight scenes could have been better, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are on the level of CW shows like Arrow. Yes, I enjoy Into the Badlands fights more. But they are completely different.

Also, Finn Jones did a fine job. If you yanked a kid away from western culture, made him grow up in a strict eastern culture envrionment and then tossed him back into western culture... his behavior and choices seem appropriate.

[Deleted]

The only people who are allowed to practice Martial Arts are Asian people.

And if you think thats racist, you are a racist.

Somehow.

[Deleted]

Nobody is saying that. They ARE saying Iron Fist should have more skills than the average kid in a dojo.

There are literally people in this thread saying that the show is being racist because Danny is a white guy who knows Martial Arts, as if Asian people are the only people who can know Martial Arts.

The fact that people can't seem to wrap there heads around how racist that point of view is, is utterly insane to me.

[Deleted]

And yet none of them are saying only Asians can do martial arts or it's racist. Maybe read beyond their first five words.

"I have a problem with the show having a white guy doing Martial Arts".

How is that not racist?

Would it be any different if it were a black guy doing Martial Arts? Or an Indian? Because if it is, that makes it even more fucking racist.

[Arrowstormen]

"I have a problem with the show having a white guy doing Martial Arts".

How is that not racist?

Would it be any different if it were a black guy doing Martial Arts? Or an Indian? Because if it is, that makes it even more fucking racist.

You should probably find the specific quote(s) you are having an issue with, because I don't remember seeing that particular one.

[ohiostate124]

Finn Jones was cast 3 weeks before they started filming. Finn said in an interview that they were going over the fight scenes 15-20 minutes before filming them. No wonder it didn't look great. This was a super rush job. I think Marvel was just in a hurry to get to the Defenders. They should have given him more time to prepare. I believe Charlie Cox had 4 months to get ready for Daredevil and they still used stunt doubles. Scott Buck made a huge error not giving the character a mask.

After all the stuff I've heard lately. I'm gonna give Finn the benefit of the doubt until after the Defenders. A new showrunner and a better team may do wonders. Just give the guy the damn costume.

[Gallahadd]

After all the stuff I've heard lately. I'm gonna give Finn the benefit of the doubt until after the Defenders. A new showrunner and a better team may do wonders. Just give the guy the damn costume.

Sadly, Finn said in a recent interview that we wont be seeing the Uniform till maybe season 3...

I agree about giving him the benefit of the doubt though. Fingers crossed he's been using the downtime to do some SERIOUS training and polish his skills up a bit. That and a decent choreographer will save season 2.

[ohiostate124]

I believe they started filming the Defenders right after iron fist season 1 so we may have to wait till season 2 for any massive improvements. Hopefully Scott Buck doesn't return.

I could live without much of a costume. Atleast give him some kinda of mask. Hell, he could be shirtless to show the dragon tatt.

[Clone]

Just finished watching the series last night. It was okay in general, I was entertained but definitely not hooked.

Of all the villains Madame Gao was the most interesting, and the only one on the level of Fisk and Kilgrave. Marvel should have capitalized on that instead. The Meachums were interesting too but couldn't carry the show like Fisk and Kilgrave did.

The fight scene could have been better. It felt like they wanted to make the fight scenes more grounded but the end result was more than they expected.

I liked what they did with Davos and the new dynamic is more relatable. While the accent (I want to say Irish but I am not sure) is fun it doesn't really make sense for him to have it.

At first Ward came off like a regular asshole but at the end is is actually likable, but still an asshole. I also liked how the actor delivered the dialogue.

- - - Updated - - -

It was obviously very racially uncomfortable. A show steeped in asian mysticism, yet with only one good asian character and a white protagonist using asian culture to defeat armies of asian bad guys. If Danny had to be white, they could have at least addressed that in the show. JJ and LC both explored issues like rape and racism head on and did it with tact. Where was the discussion on cultural appropriation and white saviours in Iron Fist? Instead we get a white man teaching an asian woman how to practice martial arts in her own dojo and it is played completely straight. In terms of both gender and race it was one of the most patronising scenes I have seen on television in a long time.

I predicted this before the show was released. Though I wouldn't call this show white savior since it's more of a New York setting.