Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Deleted]

Tojara I honestly can't tell if we're playing the same game or not.
Dks are still the wrost tank for necrotic, we don't have superior kiting skill nor the best kiting tools "by quite a large margin", and skittsh is a breeze for blood due to high instant aoe, grips and mass grip.

My monk tank plays as if necrotic isn't a thing, because you don't need healing when you don't take damage. And if by any chance you suddenly realize you have too many stack: keg smash > roll > /laugh.

[satimy]

Bloods dps is so bad

[Spryte]

Ye, I would much rather play Monk, Druid or Paladin in necrotic. This week I pretty much just play frost in mythic+ while our Paladin or Bear tanks them. I agree D&D slow is really good at kiting a lot of trash, but there's a lot of situations where the mobs can't be slowed, or there is very little room to kite.

The most brutal thing about necrotic for me tends to be bosses, especially ones that spawn a lot of adds because often you cannot drop stacks. I remember in a 15 vault having to get our Hpala to taunt the boss and bubble so I could reset stacks.

For skittish Blood DK is pretty good, only really Paladins are better imo, but that still doesn't mean its not aids when your DH burst for 2 million and you have to taunt and grip on cd just to keep aggro.

[Deleted]

Skittish scaling is just awful. When everyone was ~850 geared, Skittish was easy. But now with 910+, 54 traits and Tier Sets skittish is so much more annoying. Good Thing they nerfed tank damage by 10% across the board

[Tehr]

With Sephuz and Tightening Grasp, Necrotic isn't that bad, in my opinion. It still sucks that all of our DR is affected by Necrotic, but besides a few mobs that cannot be slowed or stunned, it's easy to reset with a combination of parries and AMS. I haven't run Necrotic since the new changes, so perhaps that'll make it easier.

I hate Skittish whenever I cannot run with a Marksman Hunter. It seems all of my guildies have crazy amounts of front-loaded burst and I can't deal enough damage to maintain AoE threat. Skittish weeks are fucking awful, made all the worse that it's Teeming/Skittish or Bolstering/Skittish.

Here's my list of affix tiers for a generic dungeon (obviously this changes based on the dungeon):

EZ Br-EZ:

1. Sanguine/Overflowing/Tyrannical
   
   EZ but not Br-EZ:
2. Sanguine/Volcanic/Fortified (ez, only problem is that mass-pulls means lots of volcanoes for ranged to dodge, and they can 2-shot ranged on high levels)
3. Raging/Volcanic/Tyrannical (Raging hurts but it's Tyrannical and not Fortified)
4. Bolstering/Overflowing/Tyrannical (my first 15 completed in time)
   
   Annoying as Fuck:
5. Teeming/Necrotic/Tyrannical
6. Raging/Necrotic/Fortified
   
   Actual Cancer:
7. Teeming/Skittish/Fortified
8. Bolstering/Skittish/Fortified

Interesting to note that both Skittish are on Fortified, both Overflowing are on Tyrannical, and all other affixes have one on Tyrannical and one on Fortified. Seems like the two Bolstering weeks should be swapped so it's Bolstering/Overflowing/Fortified and Bolstering/Skittish/Tyrannical.

[Tojara]

Tojara I honestly can't tell if we're playing the same game or not.
Dks are still the wrost tank for necrotic, we don't have superior kiting skill nor the best kiting tools "by quite a large margin", and skittsh is a breeze for blood due to high instant aoe, grips and mass grip.

My monk tank plays as if necrotic isn't a thing, because you don't need healing when you don't take damage. And if by any chance you suddenly realize you have too many stack: keg smash > roll > /laugh.

Uh what. You throw down DnD with tightening grasp and nothing can touch you. No mobility needed at all. What other tank has a consistent 70% snare that lasts the same duration that necrotic lasts?

There is no way we are the worst tank for necrotic. You run in, dump runes and runic power, throw down DnD and run around in a tight circle using blood boil. Maybe you're not use to kiting as blood? I don't know, but dropping stacks is incredibly easy as blood. You kite, or you build your group with one AoE stun and press AMS to drop stacks. I'm not arguing that other classes don't have tools to deal with it as well, but I'm completely perplexed as to why you think dropping DnD and running several yards to which nothing can attack you isn't superior kiting skills. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to move fast to kite, you just need mobs to move slower than you do, and with a 70% snare it's pretty fucking easy to do.

Not to be rude, but I have no idea what your DPS looks like as a tank, nor do I know the quality of players you're playing with. You can check to see what kinda DPS I do via logs, and while I don't claim to be the best, I'm pretty apt at maximizing damage/threat as a blood DK. Unless I'm running with all range or with rogues/hunters, the melee I run with are going to pull off of me unless they literally don't do shit for a few seconds. Either the quality of the DPS you run with is sub-par, you're a literal god, or you simply have people wait several GCDs before they open.

I mean, it's not rocket science how skittish works. If they produce 2x the damage that the tank does, they will pull aggro depending on how much time elapses. I'm not saying I'm bad at skittish, I merely stated I fucking hate it. It's either a test of your DPS's patience, or the ability of your DPS to actually react fast enough to prevent their swift death (at least at higher level keys). Does tank DPS play a factor? Absolutely, but don't claim that skittish is a breeze because of our high instant AoE lol. Aside from DRW every 3 minutes, what are you going to do? Run in throw DnD down and blood boil a couple times? That's pretty much all you have. Sure you can pick bonestorm and you have the artifact weapon, but depending on the quality of your DPS, and the level of the key, you aren't going to have them up for every pack.

How are you going to keep threat from a frost DK, DH, or WW monk who can spike to 2-3 million DPS in seconds upon opening on a pack? I can pull decent DPS with DRW on mid range packs, and I can achieve pretty high DPS on giant packs too. But when a frost DK opens with pillar, and starts firing off howling blasts that crit anywhere from 1.6 to 2.3 million damage, please tell me how you consistently hold aggro? Again, not stating that skittish is hard for me, merely stating that it's fucking annoying. It devolves into a taunt fest and praying your mongoloid DPS you brought knows how to stun or use a defensive when they know they are about to pull aggro. Necrotic isn't fun either, but I'd take it a million times over skittish. I don't know if EU has seen necrotic since the change, but the shorter duration and the instant drop out of combat makes it a far better affix to deal with.

Seriously, to me necrotic has never been a big deal. It was the worst affix at launch when you helplessly watched your bone shield wither down to 0 while you waited for the debuff to fall off between packs (thus starting every pack essentially fresh, and having zero momentum going for you). But because of the bone shield changes, and the recent necrotic changes (even before the necrotic changes) it's never been an issue. Maw of Souls is literally the only example of an instance that is pretty cancerous at high levels with necrotic, and that's simply because half the mobs in that dungeon can't be snared or stunned, and some of them self buff themselves with massive haste.

There are a couple bosses with necrotic that are kind of sketchy, but nothing that can't be fixed. The Fel Guard in Arcway you simply don't pick up the bats if you need to reset (they don't really do damage to other people anyway) and the tree in DHT you just have people actually kill the roots. At high key levels you should always be nuking adds down immediately on the second boss in VoTW, and it's not really that uncommon to have a single person with a taunt, just taunt the boss from range and ping pong it back and forth for the couple of seconds you need.

[Deleted]

Uh what. You throw down DnD with tightening grasp and nothing can touch you. No mobility needed at all. What other tank has a consistent 70% snare that lasts the same duration that necrotic lasts?

Monks have a 50% aoe snare for 15 seconds every ~7 seconds. Warriors have a 50% aoe snare for 10 seconds every 6 seconds. Both are applied directly on the targets and not limited to an area, and both classes can talent an istant aoe 5sec stun every min and have better mobility to boost.

Don't know pally and dh cause I don't play them, but I'm sure they also have a baseline snare around 50%. Dks are the only tanks that have to talent an heavy aoe snare (unless you want to play with the shitty baseline one from heart strike).

There is no way we are the worst tank for necrotic. You run in, dump runes and runic power, throw down DnD and run around in a tight circle using blood boil. Maybe you're not use to kiting as blood? I don't know, but dropping stacks is incredibly easy as blood. You kite, or you build your group with one AoE stun and press AMS to drop stacks. I'm not arguing that other classes don't have tools to deal with it as well, but I'm completely perplexed as to why you think dropping DnD and running several yards to which nothing can attack you isn't superior kiting skills. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to move fast to kite, you just need mobs to move slower than you do, and with a 70% snare it's pretty fucking easy to do.

Blood is universally the wrost tank for necrotic simply because we're the only tank whos 100% mitigation is fucked up by necro. As I said above, healing is not a issue if you don't take damage. The fact that you think dropping a D&D and running around is amazing doesn't chage that other tanks such a pala or monks (most likely even druids) simply facetank everything without having to worry, and if things becomes bad they also have better mobility and tools to use. My monk for example, thanks to its incredibly strong mastery, dodge so many attacks (and stacks) that the pull ends before I need to reset, and if I ever come to a point that necro has stacked too much, I simply roll/trascendence/tigerlust away and start dancing.

Also your argument is deeply flawed the moment you don't consider bosses and non ccable mobs, as well as pulls where you don't have much space to move around. I already read below in your post that you make dps or healers taunt and ping-pong bosses or mobs for several seconds, or simply ignore adds in a fight because they're not a threat to the party. It's viable, as long as you can complete the key in time everything is viable I guess, but I can assure you that I never had to do something like this on my monk. Superior mobility IS part of kiting skills, contrarty of what you say, and dks simply fall short of that. Paladins too handle this kind of things by simply resetting stacks with their tools.

Not to be rude, but I have no idea what your DPS looks like as a tank, nor do I know the quality of players you're playing with. You can check to see what kinda DPS I do via logs, and while I don't claim to be the best, I'm pretty apt at maximizing damage/threat as a blood DK. Unless I'm running with all range or with rogues/hunters, the melee I run with are going to pull off of me unless they literally don't do shit for a few seconds. Either the quality of the DPS you run with is sub-par, you're a literal god, or you simply have people wait several GCDs before they open.

I mean, it's not rocket science how skittish works. If they produce 2x the damage that the tank does, they will pull aggro depending on how much time elapses. I'm not saying I'm bad at skittish, I merely stated I fucking hate it. It's either a test of your DPS's patience, or the ability of your DPS to actually react fast enough to prevent their swift death (at least at higher level keys). Does tank DPS play a factor? Absolutely, but don't claim that skittish is a breeze because of our high instant AoE lol. Aside from DRW every 3 minutes, what are you going to do? Run in throw DnD down and blood boil a couple times? That's pretty much all you have. Sure you can pick bonestorm and you have the artifact weapon, but depending on the quality of your DPS, and the level of the key, you aren't going to have them up for every pack.

How are you going to keep threat from a frost DK, DH, or WW monk who can spike to 2-3 million DPS in seconds upon opening on a pack? I can pull decent DPS with DRW on mid range packs, and I can achieve pretty high DPS on giant packs too. But when a frost DK opens with pillar, and starts firing off howling blasts that crit anywhere from 1.6 to 2.3 million damage, please tell me how you consistently hold aggro? Again, not stating that skittish is hard for me, merely stating that it's fucking annoying. It devolves into a taunt fest and praying your mongoloid DPS you brought knows how to stun or use a defensive when they know they are about to pull aggro. Necrotic isn't fun either, but I'd take it a million times over skittish. I don't know if EU has seen necrotic since the change, but the shorter duration and the instant drop out of combat makes it a far better affix to deal with.

Well it's not rocket science as you say. The damage dealers 3 million opening on is on the entier pack, while the damage per single unit is lower and different for every mob/dd, and as a blood dk you have blood plague, blood boil, d&d and heart strike (bonestorm and consumption are sadly not up at every pack) constantly hitting every mob in the pull, helping stabizing your aggro. For bosses I simply use taunt and grip on cd.
I never said I don't lose aggro, skittish is a bitch and if that bolstered mob decides to oneshot your melee dps there is really nothing you can do about it. But as a dk you lose aggro less than other tanks, and its a lot easier to get back wandering mobs thanks to the additional taunts via grips and mass grips. Yes, I would definitely say it's a breeze for dks compared to other tanks.
Have you ever seen a druid or a dh with skittish? It's hell, a complete mess and a death fest (tried it personally). There is a reason dk are the most wanted tank togheter with pala during skittish weeks.

Also answering you question: yes, I do make my dps to wait a measly couple of seconds before going in. Two seconds per pull won't compromise the run, a death (or more) per pull will do.

[Tojara]

I did consider bosses, I literally listed the only bosses that are troubling to any degree. Why even pick up the bats on Arcway when they do 0 damage? Stack under the boss in DHT and just focus the roots so there aren't adds swarming everywhere. Easier when ignite passively jumps to them and you lose no DPS to switching. The second boss in VoTW is the only 'hard' one, and it's limited directly to how fast you kill the adds and which ones you get. At worst you buy time and have somebody taunt. I literally can't think of any other boss in any M+ where necrotic is *painful* in the slightest besides the three I listed. I mean, I'm being relatively thorough in listing what is problematic. You're taking "have healers or dps taunt" ping pong as quite literally something that happens all the time. When I listed that, it was meant to go along with the three bosses that are "problematic". I don't ask people to taunt or ping pong every single mob or boss, just occasionally the 1-3 I listed.

Your experience may vary, but I've done like 1400 M+ with the ones in recent months all being in the 15-19 range, essentially any key that I can +2 or +3 with relative ease. That's my experience with M+, and while a lot of people will complain about blood DKs in M+, it's probably our strongest area of play. I could certainly go higher in key level if I desired, but when you're spending 20-25 minutes for 2 pieces of loot, it becomes far less efficient.

Non-CC mobs? I listed essentially the only instance in which that matters, which is Maw of Souls. What other instance has deeply troubling mobs that you can't CC? Those mobs certainly exist, but they are isolated in groups that you aren't going to pull a massive amount of them anyway, or, they are mixed with casters that don't apply necrotic as they are casting half the time anyway. The giants that spawn murlocs are troublesome, but if you're pulling the giants on high M+ you're doing the instance inefficiently anyway. Regardless of the fact that murlocs can stack necrotic incredibly quick on that pack before the fourth boss, the shear fact that high fortified giants are cancerous to the rest of the group anyway is reason enough to skip the. Which is easily done by having them pulled away, and having a healer just bring you up from a giant distance safely behind the boss anyway.

I don't get your argument about DnD at all. It literally doesn't mean shit that it can't be spammed, and what does that really matter. The whole point of the discussion is whether or not you can easily drop necrotic stacks, and considering it's a 70% snare, simply placing it down is going to ensure you drop stacks. Not sure how you don't drop stacks with a 70% snare in 90% of the instances. It doesn't matter that it can't be spammed because by the time the mobs reach you, your stacks are gone anyway. You simply don't understand what I mean by 'running around'. You drop DnD and you just move outside of it. You don't have to run to Africa because it's a 70% snare, mobs aren't going to catch you. What the fuck do I need blinks, or rolls for if mobs can't catch you. I don't even know what instance you're referring to when you're talking about being confined by space? Court of stars near the beginning? I literally have no idea. If you're talking about Maw of Souls I've been over that, and mentioned it. It's literally the only instance filled to the brim with annoying non-cc able mobs. That instance, at least in the bottom of the boat after the first boss really isn't a function of having space to kite as a tank using your uber mobility, but is also a function of your group being able to avoid shit anyway. It's cancer for the entire group if you pull a lot because you have vanishing assholes cleaving, barrels being thrown and dudes walking around channeling axe swing. It literally doesn't matter that my mobility is shit, because in that portion of the instance, everybody has very little room to move around if you pull 'big' because its cluttered with shit in a small room. You can't exactly use the next room because dogs are going to fuck you up, let alone the true boss of the instance which is god king lantern man.

I never said mobility isn't part of a kiting toolkit, I simply stated that you don't need massive mobility if you have a godly snare. Not sure in what world a decently sized AoE circle that snares targets by 70% isn't considered a godly snare.

Your opinion, much like mine is simply an anecdote as well so I don't really see much point in continuing. Equally you say that you don't need to worry about kiting because of how OP your monk feels because of avoidance and broken mastery, equally I can say the same thing. Very rarely do I even have to reset necrotic, even on high keys in the 15+ range because mobs fall over before I get in danger. That feeling you get is much like mine, useless, because the parameters set aren't equal in regards to how quick your group is killing a pack of mobs. Necrotic is literally the easiest affix in the world if you kill mobs before they apply necrotic to a degree that's dangerous. Really? Go figure. God forbid some DK gets the shitty cloak and equips it during necrotic week. Blessing of spell warding is amazing, but a 10 second immunity to necrotic every minute is far more broken. You don't need stuns, you don't need to kite if you're lucky enough to have that for necrotic week. Don't even have to use it all the time either. If I had it I would do a giant pull with AMS ready, then take it off for the next pull or for any other bosses. I don't really see the point of it though outside of that niche area, and even then it's not like necrotic is all that dangerous for me right now, so I probably still wouldn't use it.

Realistically skittish is still a function of tank DPS, so it doesn't really matter how it 'feels'. We either do less DPS than other tanks or we do more DPS than other tanks. General consensus on these forums, and logs generally shows DKs not performing super well in the DPS department. Realistically the only tools we have that can make skittish easier for us is a second taunt with death grip, and mob positioning tool of mass grip, which we've had as a mains stay for multiple expansions now. Most of those tools along with DnD snare help far more with range groups than they do with melee groups, because they are, uh, well, in melee range. Having a giant snare down with a range group during skittish is fine because it takes mobs forever to exit the circle, which is both a clear indicator and clue that you need to taunt shit, or range need to get ready to move. Melee not so much. You pull aggro you hope the tank has a taunt, or you react fast enough to defend yourself. You don't really have the luxury of a mob slowly making it's way 20-40 yards to you.

[UNHEILVOLL]

The giants that spawn murlocs are troublesome, but if you're pulling the giants on high M+ you're doing the instance inefficiently anyway. Regardless of the fact that murlocs can stack necrotic incredibly quick on that pack before the fourth boss, the shear fact that high fortified giants are cancerous to the rest of the group anyway is reason enough to skip the. Which is easily done by having them pulled away, and having a healer just bring you up from a giant distance safely behind the boss anyway.

Sorry, can you elaborate on this? Who do you skip this pull exactly? Thanks for the tip

[Tojara]

Sorry, can you elaborate on this? Who do you skip this pull exactly? Thanks for the tip

Have your group sit on the top right corner outside of aggro radius mounted, then have another person pull the giants and run in the opposite direction (preferably into things so they get themselves killed). You just have to get yourself killed pretty quick, and have them be dragged enough distance so your group runs by. Giants will reset and you simply don't have to pull them at all.

You have a couple options to get back. Warlock summon or just have your healer mass rez you because it has a giant range.

We prefer to do it like this on fortified weeks because the giants at pretty high key levels will wreck your group and aren't worth the time invested in killing them. Eye of Azshara is seen as one of the easiest dungeons because you can make up mob count simply pulling a lot of non-threatening mobs. So if you generally include the giants in your kill (they are worth 10%), you just pull a few extra crabs, globules or murloc packs prior. It takes less time and is less generous.

There is another way to skip the giants and the whole cavern by using swap blasters, passenger mounts and certain abilities that go up hills. But honestly, unless you have the group comp and are fast at doing it, it's not really worth the effort, nor explanation.

[Tehr]

Sorry, can you elaborate on this? Who do you skip this pull exactly? Thanks for the tip

There is another way to skip the giants and the whole cavern by using swap blasters, passenger mounts and certain abilities that go up hills. But honestly, unless you have the group comp and are fast at doing it, it's not really worth the effort, nor explanation.

To do this part you need either a Warrior or a Vengeance DH (it may be possible with a Havoc DH but I very rarely run with one so I can neither confirm nor deny this).

1. The Warrior leaps up the back end of King Deepbeard's area (where you usually jump down onto the broken ship)
2. Someone else gets into a passenger mount and his allies get into the seats
3. The Warrior swapblasters the mounted person up to the top of the cliff
4. Someone stuck at the bottom of the cliff gets into a passenger mount and his allies (the Warrior who got swapped down, for example) get into the seats
5. Someone swapblasters the mounted person up to the top of the cliff
6. The Warrior swapblasters the last person at the bottom of the cliff to the top
7. The Warrior leaps up the cliff

This takes a maximum of 45 seconds (the cooldown of Heroic Leap), and is reduced if you have a Holy/Disc Priest (who can grip the Warrior to the top once all 4 allies are at the top) or the Warrior has Legendary shoulders (who doesn't have to wait for Leap to come off CD again).

[Tojara]

It's possible with a DH IIRC, and you certainly can with a combat rogue.

I mostly don't do it on the grounds that there is a lot of easy trash in the form of the murloc packs in the tunnel, and past the tunnel that you can get easy % from. Pick you poison though, as the instance allows you a lot of options when making up mob count. Lots of giant mobs that give a lot of percent, which aren't really that difficult by themselves, or you can just make up your mob count by pulling things that aren't really in your direct path in the form of pretty small, non-dangerous mobs (slimes, goblins, murlocs).

[InTheClouds]

You would think that, but DK is probably the best, or one of the best for necrotic. I'd argue prot paladins are better simply because of spell warding and bubble, allowing for some really aggressive pulls, but DK is really good at necrotic for reasons that aren't really apparent to people who just simply glance at the class. I'd put DK down a little bit further in necrotic, but since the 7.1.5 changes that makes it so boneshield doesn't get chewed through on ICD it's a pretty easy affix. That and the further fix of it being dropped once you leave combat make it a way better affix than it was on launch.

To explain there are a couple ways to get around necrotic. AMS blocks application, which means it can be used on pull to ensure you have 0 stacks for the first 5 seconds. It can also be used in tandem with stuns and snares, which get necrotics duration to the magic number of 5, which means as long as you don't have a crazy amount of spell damage going out (most dungeons don't, and if they do it can be interrupted), it will fall off. DKs are strong at necrotic because of AMS and our ability to kite. Aside from a couple instances with mobs you can't CC (Maw of Souls comes to mind) you simply face tank shit for awhile, throw DnD down and run around in circles. Despite being the least mobile tank, we have the best kiting tools by quite a large margin.

The legendary cape which is a topic for discussion is only really seen as valuable on necrotic weeks. It ensures you drop stacks, as necrotics duration is only 9 seconds and the cape lasts 10 seconds.

So yeah, contrary to what a lot of people think, blood DK is one of the best at necrotic. While it's true we probably get punished the most for having it on us, we just have superior kiting skills and AMS, which allows us to shed it pretty easy. Honestly aside from MoS and a couple of problematic bosses (which can be solved by having somebody with a taunt ping pong the boss for a few seconds), necrotic isn't a terrible affix, at least for DKs.

Only affix I don't like is universal for every tank, and that's skittish. Fuck skittish.

I have to agree, especially since the change to stacks dropping upon leaving combat. With AMS and especially with the cloak I have had no problems with necro. Best way to deal with it (even without the cloak) is to pop AMS around 10-15 stacks and hopefully by then the dps has burned the mob down enough to where the stacks don't get too high again before they die. Or throw down dnd>wraith walk away and once you have 5 seconds left on stacks then pop AMS to ensure the stacks reset. This is 100% easier with the cloak however and with a dps group with 500k-600k dps necro is imo one of the easiest affixes for blood these days.

[Deleted]

Maybe someone would like to see blood dk mythic gul'dan kill: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JksNJX18m28

[Tehr]

Maybe someone would like to see blood dk mythic gul'dan kill: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JksNJX18m28

It triggers me so hard that you use different bar textures and fonts for everything lol.

[Ikrekot]

Maybe someone would like to see blood dk mythic gul'dan kill: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JksNJX18m28

Can you post aura with that raid/healers cd.

Thanks in advanve.

[NightTrain32]

With 7.2 releasing on Tuesday, what are people's ideas on the order of artifact traits that they will take?

[Deleted]

With 7.2 releasing on Tuesday, what are people's ideas on the order of artifact traits that they will take?

Fortitude -> Carrion Feast -> Vampiric Aura -> Souldrinker -> Vampiric Fangs.

[Philondra]

I'm actually planning on Fortitude > Carrion Feast > Vampiric Aura > Souldrinker > Veinrender > Bone Breaker > All-consuming Rot > Coagulopathy > Dance of Darkness > Vampiric Fangs. My guild is heroic only, and given that our failures are never related to tank deaths (I use a strength flask for everything, including Gul'dan), I'm going for damage talents immediately after I get the new ones.

[Tojara]

See no reason to not take the new ones, they are just flat out better. After that it's whatever.

I care about damage more than anything else, but I'll probably pick up vampiric fangs first after completing the new tree. Honestly our damage talents in the tree are relatively minor, so it really doesn't matter.