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  1. #41
    When life and death is on the line? No, honor means shit for the dead and subjective for the living. I'll take life.

    Otherwise, I'll play by the rules and abide by my own morals.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  2. #42
    History has shown lots of people would kill for "honour" but very little would want to die for it.
    Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech you like; it protects speech you don't like.
    Larry Flynt (unsourced)

  3. #43
    In real life the only ones you ever hear talked about fighting honorably are the dead ones.

  4. #44
    Deleted
    I'd bite someones face off if it meant avoiding a punch to the nose or something if we got in a tangle

  5. #45
    Honor is irrelevant when it comes to survival. Live an honorable life, but when it comes to dying honorably or surviving dishonorably, there's an easy choice to be made. Concepts like honor don't exist when you're dead.

  6. #46
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    What you are talking about is a usual martial arts conditioning: stay cool, respect your opponent, don't apply extensive force when not needed... These rules only apply to regular situations, when the fight can be avoided, or is not very dangerous.

    If it is a matter of life and death, then anything goes, and survival is much more important than some abstract ideologies.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  7. #47
    Of course I'll fight with honor. *tips fedora and prepares katana*
    ...
    In a life or death situation you do what you gotta do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Freese View Post
    People on either side of the political spectrum are no more or less sophisticated, rational, or logical than their ideological counterparts.

  8. #48
    Deleted
    So much edge in this thread.

    Honor could be understood as rules.
    Any decent civilised place has rules which could be understood as having honor.
    Take a look at places that has neither and tell me if you would want to live there.

    Yes... I thought so.

    Also International Criminal Court would have a field days with you guys.
    Last edited by mmocac96309fe0; 2017-03-23 at 09:16 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzudzadzo View Post
    So much edge in this thread.

    Honor could be understood as rules.
    Any decent civilised place has rules which could be understood as having honor.
    Take a look at places that has neither and tell me if you would want to live there.

    Yes... I thought so.

    Also International Criminal Court would have a field days with you guys.
    International Criminal Courts don't trial dead people.

  10. #50
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    International Criminal Courts don't trial dead people.
    But they do trail war criminals. I see ton of would-bes in this thread.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzudzadzo View Post
    But they do trail war criminals. I see ton of would-bes in this thread.
    Your strawman isn't all that impressive. We both know this discussion is not about throwing infants at a serial killer so you can escape, or murdering thousands so you can survive, but it's only you who is turning it into a discussion about war crimes and psychopathy.

    It's about whether you throw that fistful of sand into your adversary his eyes and kick him in the groin or wait for him to slowly regain his composure in a fight. But you knew that, you just felt the need to derail.
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 2017-03-23 at 09:35 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    If it is a matter of life and death, then anything goes, and survival is much more important than some abstract ideologies.
    This is true in our individual-centric Western societies but is not a cultural universal. In societies that put some form of community ahead of the individual, the honour of that unit is taken into consideration, possibly ahead of personal survival. Bushido is a well-known example. And while the exact ideology may be moribund, the importance of family persists - so much so that the Japanese government has took to shaming the bereaved to curb their abysmal suicide rates and it worked.

  13. #53
    My life > other people's opinions

  14. #54
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Your strawman isn't all that impressive. We both know this discussion is not about throwing infants at a serial killer so you can escape, or murdering thousands so you can survive, but it's only you who is turning it into a discussion about war crimes and psychopathy.

    It's about whether you throw that fistful of sand into your adversary his eyes and kick him in the groin or wait for him to slowly regain his composure in a fight. But you knew that, you just felt the need to derail.
    I dunno man. This forum is filled with people who have no issues destroying livelihood of their political opponents.

  15. #55
    Well, I'm not familiar with their definition of honor, but I do believe that end doesn't justify the means.
    For example, if I can get out of a situation alive by killing another human being, I wouldn't do it.

  16. #56
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    This is true in our individual-centric Western societies but is not a cultural universal. In societies that put some form of community ahead of the individual, the honour of that unit is taken into consideration, possibly ahead of personal survival. Bushido is a well-known example. And while the exact ideology may be moribund, the importance of family persists - so much so that the Japanese government has took to shaming the bereaved to curb their abysmal suicide rates and it worked.
    Those, again, are general ideologies. In reality, samurais could fight very-very dirty in certain situations: such depiction of their lifestyle, and promotion of such acts, were strongly frowned upon, but it was not unknown for them to resort to low blows, so to speak, when their communities were threatened and the enemy had to be defeated no matter what.

    So, I think, it is important to promote honor, but, as with everything, it should not be taken to the absolute.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    What you are talking about is a usual martial arts conditioning: stay cool, respect your opponent, don't apply extensive force when not needed... These rules only apply to regular situations, when the fight can be avoided, or is not very dangerous.

    If it is a matter of life and death, then anything goes, and survival is much more important than some abstract ideologies.
    But "stay cool, respect your opponent, don't apply extensive force when not needed" will always work, no? I mean, in a fight for your survival you'll use as much force as you have to, to survive. Anything other than that is extensive. You should keep cool because you'd have a better judgement and most of the time make better decisions. Respecting your opponent is very important, if you don't, you might end up for a nasty surprise.

    I'm doing my fair share of karate and kung fu and been doing so for a decade. There's so much dirty fighting involved. Go for the knees, kick his balls, rip your opponents eyes out, break them, crush them, defeat them. The main point is to incapacitate your opponent, by any means necessary. However, do it with control. I'm more curious of what hono(u)r means when fighting in this kind of situation.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  18. #58
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsugunai
    and often hear that when you are in a fight concerning your safety, it is necessary to maintain dignity and not resort to "dirty" fighting.
    I'm not sure what you are reading or who you are talking to. As far as I know (and I used to teach self defense) the standard advice is to do what you have to do to get out of an encounter as safely as possible.

    With that said, consider honor as a potential rule of thumb to hold your bills down, and remember that after any fight there will be the possibility of getting hauled into civil and/or criminal court. "Eyes, throat, groin" may get you through a fight, but leave a guy blind, possibly dead, or unable to have kids, and the bill can get expensive. Is that a concern when you are trying to save your own life? Probably not one at the top of your list. On the other hand, if you have enough training to get through without risking the bill, consider putting your economic safety in as a factor.
    With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.

  19. #59
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    But "stay cool, respect your opponent, don't apply extensive force when not needed" will always work, no? I mean, in a fight for your survival you'll use as much force as you have to, to survive. Anything other than that is extensive. You should keep cool because you'd have a better judgement and most of the time make better decisions. Respecting your opponent is very important, if you don't, you might end up for a nasty surprise.

    I'm doing my fair share of karate and kung fu and been doing so for a decade. There's so much dirty fighting involved. Go for the knees, kick his balls, rip your opponents eyes out, break them, crush them, defeat them. The main point is to incapacitate your opponent, by any means necessary. However, do it with control. I'm more curious of what hono(u)r means when fighting in this kind of situation.
    Well, for example, if I'm braving the African wilds, and I get attacked by a Bushman who falls me on the ground and starts straggling me... I won't be thinking of honor much, I will start fighting very dirty: bite them, trying to pull their eyes out of their sockets, etc.

    Honor is only as good as you can afford it. There are situations in which you don't have much time for thinking, respecting your opponent and all that fluff, you need to do everything you can to survive. I'm saying it as someone who has done quite a lot of boxing: I know well that, despite being well conditioned for a legitimate fight, I won't shy away from resorting to primal rage mode if that is what it takes to save my life, or lives of those dear for me.

    But you are making a good point. It is not quite clear what honor is, it depends on the definition and interpretation.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  20. #60
    Honor in this case is mostly referent to not causing unnecessary bodily harm.

    Even in the case of self defense you ought to exercise a degree of self restraint. There are many cases when the person defending himself is either much better prepared (MMA trained, Boxing trained, military trained, contact sports trained) or is in an advantageous physical position (this is common when the aggressor is drunk), in such scenarios it is unnecessary to fight by "any means".

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