Mass burnout.

[psyquest]

The issue is twofolds:

getting alts ready with all the ap/leg and farming is way way way too time consuming.

progress in mythic is out of whack. people are getting tired and disillusioned fast.

shame. Legion had potential. it will go down as a grind and RNG fest.

[Jyggalag]

Like... c'mon I raid twice a week, my guild is 7/10 Heroic NH. I killed gul'dan heroic in a PuG and I am 898 equipped. You don't need to try hard to feel satisfied with the game.

just sayin..

Do people raiding heroic at this level even comprehend how easy heroic actually is for Mythic raiders? You're 7/10 this week in heroic while every guild on 7/10 Mythic can clear 10/10 heroic in 1 farm night with their eyes closed. You actually forget that any difficult mechanics have been left out until you're half way through the fight and the boss is almost dead. And it's purely a muscle memory thing. Once you have invested time and learn how to play properly heroic bosses just melt with appropriate gear and you don't even have to try. Those who do try are ignoring/brute forcing mechanics to get nice ranks i.e. 99%+

Mythic for these people is the only form of content that matters. They might as well watch a boss kill on YouTube than be stuck on 7/10 heroic at this point.

As of writing there are 571 guilds who have cleared 7/10M. That's at least 10k players who would not feel satisfied playing the game with less than 7 bosses dead right now on Mythic difficulty. It's these people and the THOUSANDS of others who are at 1/10, 10/10, and anything in between who have expressed they are feeling burnt out.

Blizzard has made it mandatory for these players to have maxed their artifacts on top of every other grindy thing they must do to compete in order to make killing the next boss possible.

People playing at this level want to WIN. They want to challenge themselves and BEAT THE GAME. These people will NOT be happy with 7/10 heroic.

This is the first ever expansion where logging in 2 or 3 nights a week is not sufficient to BEAT THE GAME on its INTENDED DIFFICULTY for these players. They are forced to log in on off days to be able to not only clear content but to compete in world rank terms - and yes, world ranks MATTER to mythic raiders. It's the benchmark for their success.

Guilds who don't raid 7 nights a week don't compare themselves to guilds who do. There are hundreds of players that could be in top 10 guilds who aren't because of time constraints and other commitments. They might raid in 8 hour/week raiding guilds and compare themselves with guilds with similar schedules. They judge their success based on the success of other, similar guilds. When they see a guild from previous tier from the same realm on the same schedule that they beat is 2 bosses ahead this tier because their whole team has maxed AP it MATTERS to these people.

It matters BECAUSE They will lose the competitive, skilled and hard working raiders who don't mind playing every day farming AP to their rivals if they do not enforce a standard across their whole team. If this happens their guild will DIE, slowly or quickly, and remaining players will be forced into guilds that are not capable of killing bosses that they might feel they're good enough to kill were they able to invest the time to farm the AP that would get them in a better guild.

It is a competitive environment yet mythic raiders wouldn't have it any other way because they are competitive by nature. What they would have changed is the ability to log in 2, 3 or even 4 nights a week during raid hours and not be at a disadvantage because they didn't do WQ, Mythic+, and whatever bullshit they have to do to stay competitive on the other 3-5 nights/week that they don't raid.

And before anyone mentions that in previous expansions you needed to gear outside of raids via dungeons etc it's completely different this time round because in previous expansions you only had to do dungeons so many times until you got the items you needed and then you wouldn't step foot in a dungeon again if you didn't want to. The time investment needed to optimize your character with today's RNG from TF etc is fucking MASSIVE compared to that in TBC.

Is it such a shock that players who have invested years of their life into mastering the game-play element of this game who now want to go on and master the hardest content it has to offer want to be able to do so without feeling they have to commit even more time outside of what they are able to in order to put their character in a position where it's even possible?

[Deleted]

You'd have a point if I was actually complaining, but I wasn't so now I no longer see why to replied to my comment.

[IceMan1763]

I dont think mythic raiding should go away, and dont think Blizzard doesnt need to pay special attention to the crowd, but I also think 20 hours a week is a reasonable ask for people doing the hardest content

What about the person who can put in 40 hours a week? They should not be handicapped by any type of limits! You must have psychological issues for wanting to hold players who can play more than 20 hours per week back get help man.

[Hctaz]

I am not wrong because the game evolved since the design of the original heroic content. Sure, it may have started as content tuned for "above average" players, because at time the gap between average players and the best players wasn't that big. But player competition has resulted in a continuous process of raising the bar.

The escalation of content difficulty (and the effort required to beat it) is in direct response to players putting in more and more effort to the competition in order to try and beat each other.

Except that just simply isn't true. This has nothing to do with player competition. The systems in place that require insane amounts of effort from top level mythic raiders are not designed for them at all. The things that do this are stuff that are designed to be alternatives to raiding or something that the casual player can do and feel good about. AP feels good for casual players but not for mythic raiders. It wasn't designed to force the mythic raiding scene to farm the fuck out of M+ in order to achieve the fastest possible maximum.

And the difference between average players and best players was always huge. Only 23 guilds cleared Vanilla Naxx out of the 2 or so thousand who cleared the first boss. Many guilds couldn't get further than the first boss and the mechanics weren't even that hard. The raids themselves got more complex and the players got better and more competitive but the gap is pretty much always the same between raiders. The raids themselves required effort. Some guild in TBC spent like... nearly 40 hours of consecutive raiding on M'uuru or something crazy like that but that is raid stuff. Nobody cares if they have to raid for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week to clear the raid in one week. They hate the fact that they have to do things outside of the raid to get substantial power boosts.

The point is that the design goal for Mythic is NOT to farm your ass off outside of mythic level content. The design goal is for the raids to be challenging but because of the alternative systems in place, they require a lot of time and effort outside of the raid doing non-raid related content. That's the problem and that's why there's mass burnout from the top raiding guilds.

[Grimnakh]

Except that just simply isn't true. This has nothing to do with player competition. The systems in place that require insane amounts of effort from top level mythic raiders are not designed for them at all. The things that do this are stuff that are designed to be alternatives to raiding or something that the casual player can do and feel good about. AP feels good for casual players but not for mythic raiders. It wasn't designed to force the mythic raiding scene to farm the fuck out of M+ in order to achieve the fastest possible maximum.

And the difference between average players and best players was always huge. Only 23 guilds cleared Vanilla Naxx out of the 2 or so thousand who cleared the first boss. Many guilds couldn't get further than the first boss and the mechanics weren't even that hard. The raids themselves got more complex and the players got better and more competitive but the gap is pretty much always the same between raiders. The raids themselves required effort. Some guild in TBC spent like... nearly 40 hours of consecutive raiding on M'uuru or something crazy like that but that is raid stuff. Nobody cares if they have to raid for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week to clear the raid in one week. They hate the fact that they have to do things outside of the raid to get substantial power boosts.

The point is that the design goal for Mythic is NOT to farm your ass off outside of mythic level content. The design goal is for the raids to be challenging but because of the alternative systems in place, they require a lot of time and effort outside of the raid doing non-raid related content. That's the problem and that's why there's mass burnout from the top raiding guilds.

Theyre ok with raiding 70 hours a week but not 67 hours outside of it over the course of months, ok well, guess what? Thats not the design of mythic raiding anymore and its not that difficult a threshold to meet anyway.

[Grimnakh]

Quite opposite. Only some mythic raiders here thinks that they are center of universe, in the past with cap systems and "game will do all chores for you" in Warlords they could easily grab all rewards outside raids very quickly. But rest was left with nothing. Now all kinds of people can play the game and it's rewarding for everyone. No cap = lot of choices what to do every day.

To be honest, many people here thinks that they are center of universe, that's why we have for example "remove LFR! no, remove mythic!" threads, when I see room for every difficulty. Couple weeks ago someone started thread: "how you would improve WoW" and 90% posts instead of new ideas was all about removing stuff.

And, what? Leveling mythic keystones are grind too now? It take like 2-3 dungeons max (and you very likely won't repeat any dungeon) to get back to 15 right? And you don't need to start from +2, you can just use friend key to catch up.

Seriously, I didn't see any consistent definition of "grind" here so far, like I said: everything that take time is called "grind" here.

Honestly, I see two choices for mythic raiding:
1) Go PVP route, after completing heroic difficulty (+ maybe all achievements from raid) you can access to mythic raid with predefined stats. Rewards could be titles, transmog and Blizz could finally support world first race.
2) Make Mythic loot +10 from Titanforge cap with static stats and no warforge, but only 1 piece drop from boss (RNG exist because we have loot shower, so casual can get loot quickly, but it take time for hardcore to find perfect loot piece).

I think 2) would be much better solution, I don't think any player would have problem with titanforge stoping at heroic raid difficulty and it could help better tune mythic raids and give raiders some sense of reward for clearing content.

Ya Im gonna have to sort of disagree with you there. I'd like mythic+ pvp or mythic raids to be a viable source of top tier loot. Ive never been that thrilled with large groups, as I like to be more responsible for a run's success, and additionally I just like the variety. Let mythic plus loot scale to mythic raid base as long as the difficulty needed to be completed is similarly elite, so maybe +30 right now? PvP should be based on rating and similarly restrictive, other less challenging content should continue to have a small chance at high end gear that can continue to give any player the sense that an upgrade is possible. Weekly pvp and raid caches should be similar to mythic plus at one tier above what youre currently doing to make keep them relevant and give a sense that you can continue to progress your character each week even if you arent an above average player in skill level.

The only reason I can see as motivation to keep progress chance capped at certain levels is the elitism and exclusivity desired by mythic raiders or other levels of players (but mostly self centered mythic raiders).

[Sazabius]

I honestly get burned out quicker and quicker every expac/patch/new raid. RNG is only making this effect two-fold. In the end I'm looking at 94k token costs and thinking it's not even worth that much atm. Just started doing Mythic NH and it's already 7.2 in a few weeks.

[IceMan1763]

Ya Im gonna have to sort of disagree with you there. I'd like mythic+ pvp or mythic raids to be a viable source of top tier loot. Ive never been that thrilled with large groups, as I like to be more responsible for a run's success, and additionally I just like the variety. Let mythic plus loot scale to mythic raid base as long as the difficulty needed to be completed is similarly elite, so maybe +30 right now? PvP should be based on rating and similarly restrictive, other less challenging content should continue to have a small chance at high end gear that can continue to give any player the sense that an upgrade is possible. Weekly pvp and raid caches should be similar to mythic plus at one tier above what youre currently doing to make keep them relevant and give a sense that you can continue to progress your character each week even if you arent an above average player in skill level.

The only reason I can see as motivation to keep progress chance capped at certain levels is the elitism and exclusivity desired by mythic raiders or other levels of players (but mostly self centered mythic raiders).

So basically you don't want better players who are doing harder content to have better loot. Get over your jealousy issues and learn your place... you are a mediocre player and should get mediocre loot. You clearly have psychological issues get some help man.

[Deleted]

So basically you don't want better players who are doing harder content to have better loot. Get over your jealousy issues and learn your place... you are a mediocre player and should get mediocre loot. You clearly have psychological issues get some help man.

Indeed. Lesser players should not get loot that drops from mythic raiding. Effort / skill should go hand in hand with the best loot currently available. TF should have a cap.

[IceMan1763]

Indeed. Lesser players should not get loot that drops from mythic raiding. Effort / skill should go hand in hand with the best loot currently available. TF should have a cap.

Of course it should have a cap, higher level M+ should drop the same loot as end bosses in the current tier heroic raid. I think that would be fair.

When it drops the same quality gear as the mythic raids and has no cap, grinding M+ will inevitably become compulsory for high end mythic raiding just like any source of gear (or character power, for that matter) that can help you kill mythic bosses. Same thing with lower level raids being able to TF proc up to the same level of gear.

If M+ is to be an alternate progression system, it has to take its proper place below mythic raiding in the gear power ladder. Why? 5 people versus 20 and clearly mythic raiding is the harder content. Harder content should mean better rewards... this is the traditional paradigm for this game, not some hairbrained idea. Same deal with lower difficulty raids (or WQ), they should only TF proc up to an appropriate level.

Casuals like Grim who want to have the same gear but don't want to dedicate themselves to the level of skill and organization Mythic raiding takes need to set their jealousy aside. My "psychological" comments about him are tongue in cheek because he frequently accuses people who call for caps of having psychological problems. When you boil it down I think he honestly has the jealousy issues he accuses the reasonable crowd requesting traditional limits of having. If you can't handle that the hardest content gives the best rewards, go play Candy Crush or something and stop ruining the raiding scene for the rest of the playerbase by supporting these idiotic gear distribution schemes.

[epLe]

When mythic raids are fixed in difficulty, and 5mans are scalable.
There is no universal law saying one have to be harder than the other.

You can always pump up the difficulty of the 5man to be way harder than the 20 man raid.
The rewards should then also be better naturally.

Also, most who use the "Burn-out"-excuse, are only tired of the game, or most often got the gear they are interrested in from current tier.
Hence they dont bother showing for raids where they don't really desire anyhing except a lucky TF or leg.

[Deleted]

When mythic raids are fixed in difficulty, and 5mans are scalable.
There is no universal law saying one have to be harder than the other.

You can always pump up the difficulty of the 5man to be way harder than the 20 man raid.
The rewards should then also be better naturally.

Also, most who use the "Burn-out"-excuse, are only tired of the game, or most often got the gear they are interrested in from current tier.
Hence they dont bother showing for raids where they don't really desire anyhing except a lucky TF or leg.

5-man may be able to become harder than mythic bosses on paper. But as long as they still remain possible, they will be easier in practice. Why? Because you only need 4 competent players to do them with you and not 19. The chances of a single fuck-up ruining everything is much higher with that many players which is the main issue for 20-man raiding on unforgivable bosses.

[Grimnakh]

5-man may be able to become harder than mythic bosses on paper. But as long as they still remain possible, they will be easier in practice. Why? Because you only need 4 competent players to do them with you and not 19. The chances of a single fuck-up ruining everything is much higher with that many players which is the main issue for 20-man raiding on unforgivable bosses.

You just dont like the idea because it requires all 5 to be good players. You prefer 20 man content where everyone else can carry your mediocrity through it.

[IceMan1763]

You just dont like the idea because it requires all 5 to be good players. You prefer 20 man content where everyone else can carry your mediocrity through it.

Yeah because last I checked carrying never happens in M+

amiright???

[Grimnakh]

Yeah because last I checked carrying never happens in M+

amiright???

It doesnt at 25+

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah because last I checked carrying never happens in M+

amiright???

I like how you didnt even deny that you need to get carried lol

[Bloodtista]

constant class and ability changes,nerfs and buffs, made me quit the game.

[Deja Thoris]

constant class and ability changes,nerfs and buffs, made me quit the game.

Change always happens. If you can't adapt then good riddance tbh.

[IceMan1763]

It doesnt at 25+

- - - Updated - - -

I like how you didnt even deny that you need to get carried lol

If I still played the game I wouldn't need to be carried.

And that's pretty rich coming from someone who doesn't even set foot in Mythic raids.

[Rogalicus]

Change always happens. If you can't adapt then good riddance tbh.

Now you're gonna pretend it wasn't you who created these threads?
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...abject-failure
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...f-the-game-atm