Pit bulls : Dangerous dogs or friendly buddies?

[Vanyali]

A very troublesome breed. Or rather several breeds to be exact, if you include subspecies. Numerous health issues, training is a must (otherwise it is a gun with broken safety), prone to uncontrollable rage fits if sufficiently agitated (and therefore will not follow orders from the owner). Also, training has very short term effect on them and requires constant "updates" or "reminders". So basically every year you have to spend a week or so going through training again, especially if the dog does not deal with commands on an everyday basis.
If you want an intelligent and easily trained large dog, go for one of the shepherd lineages or mixed breeds. German shepherd would be ideal for most people. They are very social and can be easily trained for most tasks. Intelligent as well, so rerun of the training courses will not be a problem. If you really need a powerhouse of a dog (for hunting or guard duty for example, especially in colder climates), look at Black Terriers. Just as easily trained as german shepherds and among the largest dog breeds. They however are prone to chose only one master to obey. So your wife / husband / children likely will not be able to order it around if it does not want to. Basically it will obey alpha, but the rest are just members of the pack with equal rights. Extremely protective of the family / pack members on instinctive levels. I have seen one break up joking fights among children by grabbing one on the back of a shirt and pulling one from the other, as well as trying to get inbetween to separate them from each other. Quite efficient at it too, considering it weights around the same as a grown man (sometimes upwards of 150 pounds / 70kg for a grown male).

Everything you've said here goes for every single breed.

Except the weirdness about alpha and pack members, considering that's not how wolves OR dogs operate unless they're highly stressed with strange animals forming the "pack".


Oh, and the "uncontrollable rage fits". That's more Cocker Rage, which tends to be Cocker spaniels more than any other breed.

[Rehija]

100% training and socialization

As a former licensed pitbull owner from Austria with sharp regulations here i add a few additions to be correct;

Bully Breeds and Big Breeds in general have a higher "danger potential" than smaler breeds, well, because they are bigger.

Locking jaws are Bullshit. If a Bully doesnt want to let go, then he doesnt let go, simple as that. They were bred to be hardheaded and to stand there ground ( Bullbaiting, hence the name Bully ) while also docile and loving towards humans for better trainability.

I think pitbulls are like undead servants. How dangerous they are totally depends on who raised them.

Thats a pretty good analogy. It takes a lot to make a Bully sharp towards Humans but when someone accomplishes that it can be devastating. Almost every bite accident is due to wrong human behavior, the owners or the victims and most of the times its a combination of both.

Bullys are dual creatures. One side is a full blown couch potatoe, while the other side is a energy loaded Kid wich you cant get of the playground. This duality often starts missbehavings bcs. the owners dont know how to handle it. A bully has to be worked on a daily basis. Running, pulling, playing, everything that gets rid of stored energy. I found myself buying rollerblades and a dog harness to let my dog go wild while pulling me all over the vienna https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donauinsel and it worked wonders.

[Not A Cat]

I think it's sad that certain places won't let people own them. This means it's likely they're going to spend their lives in a shelter or be put down.

Instead they need to crack down on shady breeders who abuse and neglect the animals. Also people need to realize the responsibility of owning any animal. Christmas Puppy grew up with a bad temperament because little Timmy stopped giving a shit after a month.

[Powerogue]

Whatever kind of dog you get should be weaker than you. Don't get a dog you can't control. If that means you have to get a teacup Pomeranian, get one.

[Irian]

They're both. Pit bulls are very easy to train to be vicious and defensive, and default to high tempers to that if mistrained or neglected. But pit bulls are also very obedient and friendly dogs when given proper training and attention.

I feel like it's pretty hard to say that pit bulls aren't more dangerous than most dog breeds. I've had two of my own cats attacked in my yard by errant pit bulls and one of them died. I've also had a pit bull in my yard that would growl and snarl at me as I passed by a neighbor's fence as a child, and when it escaped once it practically tried to rush me when I opened my door. These were three separate dog attacks, all pit bulls, and in two separate locations.

Sure it's a small sample size but I can't exactly say I trust them considering their seeming propensity for viciousness.

[lockedout]

a game dog is a game dog celebrity so who cares?

Blue pits aren't game dogs.

[Heladys]

Pitbulls are what their owners make them. If you have a psychotic owner you can end up with a dangerous dog. But that same psychotic owner could ensure their goddamn dacshund would eat your face off too.

[Raelbo]

Sure am, do I need to quote your own words to bring back memories about this game you started...?
The part is when someone decides to take the "No u" train. Oh me? Hahaha, you bet I'm in!

False equivalence is false. You demanded a citation without bothering to do the reading first. That is just you being lazy, I called you out for it. The rest is you just showing your ineptitude to engage in debate because, in your own words, you prefer to "play stupid".

You get the same stats when you make statistics about people who blew themselves up with a bombvest. And many people really roll with this logic, condemning everything because "That's what the stats say".
And fair enough, you got those stats, but STILL I'm going to insist that if the following scenario would occur:
10 pitbull puppies given to someone who knows how to train dogs.
10 chihuahuas given to people who treat it as a tattoo.
We would have 10 nerveous, aggressive, nutshitflippin' chihuahuas and 10 calm, steady pitbulls.

No. What you would get most of the time is zero human fatalities or serious injuries on either side (although of course among the chihuahuas there will
be many awful little beasts).

But what you like to ignore is that every now and again you'll get a pitbull that, for no apparent reason, in spite of an owner with the best intentions in the world, savaging a person. Because it's in their nature, not very often, but more than any other breed of dog.

And that's pretty much what the point is. Topic of this thread: Dangerous dogs or friendly buddies? Friendly buddies obviously.

That is such a simplistic and poorly thought out answer to frankly, a simplistic and poorly thought out question that assumes a mutually exclusive answer.

Truth is that most dogs are friendly buddies. But sometimes a dog can be a dangerous animal. Since pitbulls are statistically the most likely, by a huge margin, of any breed to produce dangerous individuals, they are relative to other dogs, "dangerous". So they are "dangerous dogs", obviously (regardless of whether most are "friendly buddies" or not).

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Pitbulls are what their owners make them.

False. They are not robots that you can program to function in a purely deterministic way. They are animals, and like all animals, they have minds of their own. While one can train any dog to behave within a set of parameters most of the time, there is always the chance that it will act in an unpredictable manner dictated by it's own will.

And with pitbulls, the probability of this happening and resulting in harm coming to a human, while still very small, is significantly greater than with other dogs.

If you have a psychotic owner you can end up with a dangerous dog.

I think the word you were looking for is psychopathic. Ironically though, you hit the nail on the head with your error:

"Psychosis is an abnormal condition of the mind that involves a "loss of contact with reality"."

People who believe that they have the ability to train any dog to obey their will with a 100% degree of certainty are pyschotic because they have lost touch with reality. Which leads to dangerous dogs. And this is why I think there is a genuine problem with these kinds of dogs, not just from the obviously deranged owners, but also from the arrogant fools who believe that because they are great dog owners, their pitbull would never do harm. (FYI I know a family who lost their 6 year old to a cousin's Rottweiler and no one saw it coming because they lived in the false sense of security that them being good dog owners ensured that their dog would be 100% safe)

But that same psychotic owner could ensure their goddamn dacshund would eat your face off too.

This may be true, but you'd have a much easier time of it if you tried this with a pitbull (you also wouldn't need to tie your victim down)

[caervek]

Pitbulls are what their owners make them.

Pretty much sums it all up, same for any other dog really. The only reason Pit Bulls get a worse rep is because on average they have much worse owners.

[Queen of Hamsters]

A very troublesome breed. Or rather several breeds to be exact, if you include subspecies. Numerous health issues, training is a must (otherwise it is a gun with broken safety), prone to uncontrollable rage fits if sufficiently agitated (and therefore will not follow orders from the owner). Also, training has very short term effect on them and requires constant "updates" or "reminders". So basically every year you have to spend a week or so going through training again, especially if the dog does not deal with commands on an everyday basis.
If you want an intelligent and easily trained large dog, go for one of the shepherd lineages or mixed breeds. German shepherd would be ideal for most people. They are very social and can be easily trained for most tasks. Intelligent as well, so rerun of the training courses will not be a problem. If you really need a powerhouse of a dog (for hunting or guard duty for example, especially in colder climates), look at Black Terriers. Just as easily trained as german shepherds and among the largest dog breeds. They however are prone to chose only one master to obey. So your wife / husband / children likely will not be able to order it around if it does not want to. Basically it will obey alpha, but the rest are just members of the pack with equal rights. Extremely protective of the family / pack members on instinctive levels. I have seen one break up joking fights among children by grabbing one on the back of a shirt and pulling one from the other, as well as trying to get inbetween to separate them from each other. Quite efficient at it too, considering it weights around the same as a grown man (sometimes upwards of 150 pounds / 70kg for a grown male).

Most of what you've said here is downright drivel based in debunked hypothesis on dog behaviour.

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I will never trust any dog I havent raised myself.

But its pretty obvious that a breed that was bred for blood sports and dog fighting have a
bigger potential to kill someone.

They were never bred to be aggressive towards humans, and only a few lines were bred for blood sport. It's like trying to relate the hunting behaviour of a Finnish Spitz to a risk that it could also turn and kill humans.

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Whatever kind of dog you get should be weaker than you. Don't get a dog you can't control. If that means you have to get a teacup Pomeranian, get one.

Ah yes, because everyone knows that dog ownership is about physically dominating your dog, based on that oh-so-thorough and accurate study of captive wolves by 1 man.

Do you think the people training bears for movies, do so by physical domination?

People shouldn't own dogs PERIOD if they can't muster the ability to train them properly. Physically "dominating" (terrorizing) your dog doesn't do jack squat for its social behaviour and obedience, other than teaching it that it's always at risk of being physically manhandled, and scared dogs are dangerous.

Plenty of Pomeranians have zero training, since people just get them and let them develop into whatever cuz "so tiny it doesn't bother anyone"... Obviously, the neighbours would disagree after listening to a yapping dog for 8 hours every day.

[cubby]

Dogs are usually what their owners make them.

[drakensoul]

Genetic tendencies abound when they're benign but somehow when you ask about something negative like aggression--no, of course there's no genetic component to that character trait.

All the other ones: playfulness, family-minded, energetic, bred to hunt, good with swimming, good with guarding, of course those are genetic and certain breeds are better (read: genetic inclination) at them. But aggressiveness? No! It's all environment!

How does that make sense to those of you saying it?

I have two Anatolians that spend every night patrolling the perimeter of our property barking to protect our livestock. This was something they were sold as bred to do. And they do it. I haven't trained them once.

Very internally inconsistent dialogues here. Either all dogs are the same completely blank slates and it's all environment and none of the "bred to do X" is valid, or there are genetic/breed tendencies and aggressiveness can be one of them. Is that really such a controversial distinction?

I'm guessing none of you trained your cats to cover up their shit, seems to be something they were bred doing. I have two French Bulldogs that do the same thing. No training provided. Before the Anatolians I had an Australian blue heeler that would chase the horses and nip at their heels anytime we let him in the same pasture. No training required. Seems to be something fairly common to (a genetic tendency of) the breed.

It's simply not correct that animal behavior is 100% environmental and learned. Animals will respond to a stimulus in some way regardless of whether or not they have been trained. Underlying neuronal wiring and cerebrum dictate the nature of these responses. That's genetic. Can you train over that? To a large extent. That doesn't negate the fact that there is underlying genetically motivated behavior and what we anthropomorphically call 'personality.'

Anyone who has owned and cared for a variety of animals and livestock is aware that they all behave differently. No one would mistake a dog for a horse. Or a cat for a sheep. You're trying to negate billions of years of evolution designed to produce an animal which behaves in certain ways to ensure its survival as a member of its species. The idea that they're all completely blank slates that will become what you make them into is flawed.

[Gaaz]

Most of what you've said here is downright drivel based in debunked hypothesis on dog behaviour.

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They were never bred to be aggressive towards humans, and only a few lines were bred for blood sport. It's like trying to relate the hunting behaviour of a Finnish Spitz to a risk that it could also turn and kill humans.
Ah yes, because everyone knows that dog ownership is about physically dominating your dog, based on that oh-so-thorough and accurate study of captive wolves by 1 man.
Do you think the people training bears for movies, do so by physical domination?
People shouldn't own dogs PERIOD if they can't muster the ability to train them properly. Physically "dominating" (terrorizing) your dog doesn't do jack squat for its social behaviour and obedience, other than teaching it that it's always at risk of being physically manhandled, and scared dogs are dangerous.

Plenty of Pomeranians have zero training, since people just get them and let them develop into whatever cuz "so tiny it doesn't bother anyone"... Obviously, the neighbours would disagree after listening to a yapping dog for 8 hours every day.

And your opinion is based on...
Maybe I am mistaken, and you did train all your dogs in a proper training center over 2-3 decades? Nope? Maybe you just visited it and spent a good deal of time with other owners that do try to train their dogs? Nope? Maybe you put on a safety harness and tried to assist / train a pit bull? Even a single one? Well I did all that. Guess what - all breeds are different and you can immediately tell which ones will or will not give you trouble. Even Alabai is calmer and more responsive to commands than a Pit bull in general.
You should also read up on how different breeds are created - how aggression is stimulated or toned down by introducing different blood. There are several breeds that, although many owners would try to downplay it, have apparent problems with agression. Actually, not agression itself, but with ability to follow commands when agitated. Pit bulls, bull terriers, dobermans and some others tend to have problems in that regard, and overcoming that takes much longer than with most other breeds.
Every dog is unique, yes. But with all else equal, some species will be smarter / dumber (in terms of training), more or less agressive, more or less prone to illnesses, different life expectancy. Genetic tendencies are sometimes very strong and difficult, even impossible to overcome.

[ComputerNerd]

Pitbulls are not the only breed with issues.
ALL of them have problems dogs.
I agree certainly a large part is due to how a dog is raised.
Though if a breed is inherently prone to issues, it is nobody's fault but our own as we were breeding them for given traits.

Plus the generalisation of pit-bull "like" breeds isn't helping matters.
We have a lovely staffordshire bull terrier for instance which so far has only shown a dislike towards other dogs, which by the way other breeds of non-bull terriers have also done.

[Powerogue]

Ah yes, because everyone knows that dog ownership is about physically dominating your dog, based on that oh-so-thorough and accurate study of captive wolves by 1 man.
.

Of course physical strength matters. If you're out walking your dog, and your dog decides to hurdle itself towards the mailman, teeth bared, are you going to stop it, or are you going to slide across the pavement for 10 feet trying? You can blab about how "a well trained dog wouldn't do that" but dogs aren't born well trained.

[derpkitteh]

Genetic tendencies abound when they're benign but somehow when you ask about something negative like aggression--no, of course there's no genetic component to that character trait.

All the other ones: playfulness, family-minded, energetic, bred to hunt, good with swimming, good with guarding, of course those are genetic and certain breeds are better (read: genetic inclination) at them. But aggressiveness? No! It's all environment!

How does that make sense to those of you saying it?

I have two Anatolians that spend every night patrolling the perimeter of our property barking to protect our livestock. This was something they were sold as bred to do. And they do it. I haven't trained them once.

Very internally inconsistent dialogues here. Either all dogs are the same completely blank slates and it's all environment and none of the "bred to do X" is valid, or there are genetic/breed tendencies and aggressiveness can be one of them. Is that really such a controversial distinction?

I'm guessing none of you trained your cats to cover up their shit, seems to be something they were bred doing. I have two French Bulldogs that do the same thing. No training provided. Before the Anatolians I had an Australian blue heeler that would chase the horses and nip at their heels anytime we let him in the same pasture. No training required. Seems to be something fairly common to (a genetic tendency of) the breed.

It's simply not correct that animal behavior is 100% environmental and learned. Animals will respond to a stimulus in some way regardless of whether or not they have been trained. Underlying neuronal wiring and cerebrum dictate the nature of these responses. That's genetic. Can you train over that? To a large extent. That doesn't negate the fact that there is underlying genetically motivated behavior and what we anthropomorphically call 'personality.'

Anyone who has owned and cared for a variety of animals and livestock is aware that they all behave differently. No one would mistake a dog for a horse. Or a cat for a sheep. You're trying to negate billions of years of evolution designed to produce an animal which behaves in certain ways to ensure its survival as a member of its species. The idea that they're all completely blank slates that will become what you make them into is flawed.

have any of you ever watched a show called pitbulls and parolees? even that woman on there, tia something, even she says that there are genetic issues sometimes.

you can't deny facts.

now, it's not all pitbulls that have this genetic issue. but some of them do, and that's where a major problem can happen.

[Deleted]

If the dog is aggressive it haven't been trained or cared for properly. Most young first time dog owners look "Oh badass dog me buy it!" and than they have zero clue what the fuck to do with it. I blame the owners

[Spectral]

It's pretty funny how most people will acknowledge how genetics work most of the time, but when it's some pet issue that they're personally invested in, suddenly nurture completely swamps nature. Seems pretty unlikely, but whatever, there's not really anything to be done about it.

[Deleted]

Treat them right and pit bulls are no more dangerous than any other dog. Give them good chew toys, tug on them, let them exercise their jaw strength, have fun with that. Let them play.

Pit pulls are just dogs. Raise them in a loving environment and they will be loving dogs. They're energetic as fuck, so they need A LOT of exercise. They need multiple walks a day. If you're in no position to exercise a pit bull do not get one. They are built like brick shithouses and cannot do with being cooped up in some small apartment all day. Exercise the shit out of them, or do not have them. If you have a small home and do not have the time to walk your dog multiple times a day, get a different kind of dog because a pit bull will not be for you.

[Xtacle]

You guys are right, pit bulls are just like any other dog in which a good owner will 99% of the time be able to raise an excellent loving and loyal pet. However what makes a pit bull one of the more dangerous dog breeds is that when they have a terrible owner they are a hell of a lot more likely to kill someone than most other breeds if they freak out. I've had a pit bull in the past and he was an amazing companion, but still I consider them to be one of the most dangerous breeds because of that. Them being a popular breed as well makes it even more common place for bad owners to mishandle them.