Just when you thought it could not get worse. CBO report #2 out.

[Underverse]

Ahhh the good ole education card. Considering I have BSEE, I feel pretty educated.

So you enjoy good ole fashioned theft I see since you failed to even cite the fact that now it was a requirement (aka forced upon) at the time to pay into a system (that worked for the poor and no one else), even if you didn't want it.

That you have a BSEE does not guarantee that you're educated in how healthcare works. Unless they teach healthcare in electrical engineering courses now?

Its nothing to be ashamed of, I didn't know jack shit about healthcare until I started reading more into it in order to investigate some of the claims being made on these boards. Evidence will win arguments.

[Machismo]

Ancap or ancom? Either way, the burden is on you to provide a shit ton of logical arguments that either system would work, instead of the frivolous 'it'll be fine, man!' bullshit I usually see from both of these groups.

I'm neither. I don't use enough memes.

[prwraith]

So, does that mean you are evil, because millions die every year in Africa due to disease, famine, and bloodshed? Let's be honest, since you are not doing more to help them, you are clearly evil, right? You are killing them.

And now you're moving the goal posts bravo. Let me go ahead and explain the difference here. You're REMOVING a life saving policy via your views and directly causing a NEW loss of life.

And how do you know I don't contribute to africa? How do you know I don't donate every month to doctors without borders? You don't but we'll forgive it. The point is that I'm not removing something that exists to protect life so I can protect my own wallet and thus causing loss of life that would otherwise not occur.

YOU are. So sure you can move the goalposts all you want but only one of us believes in something that will kill people who otherwise would not have died.

[Tehshocka]

Nobody, literally nobody said the ACA was "great" or perfect or anything in this thread. Literally, yes literally, everyone is saying the ACA could use some pretty big improvements. There's a way to do it right and save this country trillions of dollars over the next 10 years.

But not with republicans. Which is sort of funny considering republicans like to blow their load all over the DoD consistently and then preach about how they want to save america money. And yet democrats seem to be the only ones who consistently do so.

ACA needs to be gutted. Pre-existing conditions and keeping children on longer are things I support. An interstate Exchange I support. The ability to buy cheaper drug from Canada I support.

It is and will forever be extremely difficult to remove a government entitlement without pissing off some segment of the population.

[Machismo]

SRSLY U GUIZ! The website had some issues the first few weeks, ERGO THE WHOLE THING WAS BAD FOREVER AND EVER!!!! The GOP told me so, so it MUST be true, and there's nothing wrong with this logic at all, for I am the most brilliant of the already brilliant Republican party member!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! (See, when you use excessive exclamation points, it makes you look smarter and your words more true. The GOP said so. So again, it has to be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


As opposed to... which bill?


Sure it is, kid. That's why every post you've written on the subject started off with you crying about a website that was overloaded for a couple weeks. XD

Well, if you vote on a bill, you should probably have some inkling of what you are voting on.

As for your last comment, you are lying. I think I wrote two comments about the shitty website. I spoke far more about forcing people to buy into coverage they did not want. Sorry, your comment is bullshit.

[Underverse]

I'm neither. I don't use enough memes.

Ugh the memes are the worst part.

So you do believe in some government? What role should government have? Just defense? Why would the private sector be better at something like healthcare, where competition is not important?

[Machismo]

And now you're moving the goal posts bravo. Let me go ahead and explain the difference here. You're REMOVING a life saving policy via your views and directly causing a NEW loss of life.

And how do you know I don't contribute to africa? How do you know I don't donate every month to doctors without borders? You don't but we'll forgive it. The point is that I'm not removing something that exists to protect life so I can protect my own wallet and thus causing loss of life that would otherwise not occur.

YOU are. So sure you can move the goalposts all you want but only one of us believes in something that will kill people who otherwise would not have died.

I'm not moving goalposts. You seem to think I'm evil for letting people choose their own fate, so you must be evil by doing the same thing with people in Africa. It's not moving goalposts, it's an analogy. I'm removing nothing, simply choosing not to support something that exists, or that other people want to exist.

Do you do those things you bring up? Do you work for Doctors Without Borders? Do you send money to Africa? It's funny, because I donate to both causes. You should, otherwise, you are an evil killer.

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Ugh the memes are the worst part.

So you do believe in some government? What role should government have? Just defense? Why would the private sector be better at something like healthcare, where competition is not important?

The only role of government should be to restrict the actions that actually cause harm.

Competition can exist in the healthcare industry, even if it does have inelastic demand. Due to the inelasticity (totally a word), the inevitable outcome would be tiered care and support.

[prwraith]

ACA needs to be gutted. Pre-existing conditions and keeping children on longer are things I support. An interstate Exchange I support. The ability to buy cheaper drug from Canada I support.

It is and will forever be extremely difficult to remove a government entitlement without pissing off some segment of the population.

See now we're in agreement. I think the ACA needs a TON of work. And all of those things you listed, I absolutely support.

I guess the only thing we probably disagree on is how it's funded. Because the only part I wouldn't compromise on is that everyone deserves quality healthcare in the US.

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I'm not moving goalposts. You seem to think I'm evil for letting people choose their own fate, so you must be evil by doing the same thing with people in Africa. It's not moving goalposts, it's an analogy. I'm removing nothing, simply choosing not to support something that exists, or that other people want to exist.

Do you do those things you bring up? Do you work for Doctors Without Borders? Do you send money to Africa? It's funny, because I donate to both causes. You should, otherwise, you are an evil killer.

See now your reading comprehension is the part you're missing. Let me write it differently for you.

If you are holding a rope, that is holding 5 people from falling off a mountain and you decide you want to stop, you have killed them.
If you are minding your own business and somebody on the other side of the world dies because you didn't come to them with your rope, you did not kill them.

Removing something that exists to save lives = evil because it results in deaths that wouldn't have happened
Doing nothing where nothing is already occurring = neutrality

I'm not sure I can write it in any smaller words. Any yes it was an analogy, but it was a faulty analogy, essentially a logical fallacy.

[Machismo]

See now we're in agreement. I think the ACA needs a TON of work. And all of those things you listed, I absolutely support.

I guess the only thing we probably disagree on is how it's funded. Because the only part I wouldn't compromise on is that everyone deserves quality healthcare in the US.

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See now your reading comprehension is the part you're missing. Let me write it differently for you.

If you are holding a rope, that is holding 5 people from falling off a mountain and you decide you want to stop, you have killed them.
If you are minding your own business and somebody on the other side of the world dies because you didn't come to them with your rope, you did not kill them.

Removing something that exists to save lives = evil because it results in deaths that wouldn't have happened
Doing nothing where nothing is already occurring = neutrality

I'm not sure I can write it in any smaller words. Any yes it was an analogy, but it was a faulty analogy, essentially a logical fallacy.

I plan on minding my own business, which also means my own money. I want to make sure everyone else is free to do the same. See, not evil. I have killed nobody.

[Underverse]

The only role of government should be to restrict the actions that actually cause harm.

Competition can exist in the healthcare industry, even if it does have inelastic demand. Due to the inelasticity (totally a word), the inevitable outcome would be tiered care and support.

Ah so classical libertarian. Okay, so should a government step in if someone is smoking near me? Should the government intervene if a banker made risky bets with my money that they said they wouldn't make (unbeknownst to me, of course, until it all blows up)? What about opportunity costs? If there's a natural disaster, should the government prevent people from scalping on water bottles? And naturally, we all share an environment. Should my neighbor be allowed to dump chemicals in his back yard?

My point here is that we live in a socially and economically interconnected society. Harm takes many forms, and I can almost guarantee that they exceed your limitations. If something can be done more efficiently by the government - such as a single payer healthcare system - then I think it should be. Of course, the inverse is also true.

Specifically in the case of healthcare, competition is not required for tiered care. Competition in areas where skill or quality is not something that is being selected for is useless. Healthcare is just paperwork. It's just the process of determining which claims to fund. The government can do this - hell, an AI robot will probably be able to eventually do this - without the competition, and all that wasted money which ultimately comes from the pockets of the subscribers. Think of it - if 50% of a company's revenues are spent on healthcare in the public sector, while 97% are spent in the public sector, where does all that money go? It's just waste; competitive waste, profit waste, administrative waste. So much garbage. Competition, sometimes, is simply inefficient.

[EverDash]

People also need to remember:

About 85-90% of the things people complain about in the ACA were only put there by Republicans so it would pass. If ACA could have been written and passed as it was intended, virtually all of these complaints wouldn't exist.

This is exactly why the GOP plan is so awful and everyone hates it - it's essentially healthcare without Democrat input.

[Mihalik]

The facts prove you wrong.

At best you can say that the ACA didn't go far enough, not that it went to far.

I have to agree with him. The ACA was garbage. They should have just went single payer and not with Romneycare rebranded.

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The United States of America. The only developed nation in the world which simply can't figure out healthcare in the 21st Century. We are exceptional indeed. Exceptionally incompetent.

[Machismo]

Ah so classical libertarian. Okay, so should a government step in if someone is smoking near me? Should the government intervene if a banker made risky bets with my money that they said they wouldn't make (unbeknownst to me, of course, until it all blows up)? What about opportunity costs? If there's a natural disaster, should the government prevent people from scalping on water bottles? And naturally, we all share an environment. Should my neighbor be allowed to dump chemicals in his back yard?

My point here is that we live in a socially and economically interconnected society. Harm takes many forms, and I can almost guarantee that they exceed your limitations. If something can be done more efficiently by the government - such as a single payer healthcare system - then I think it should be. Of course, the inverse is also true.

Specifically in the case of healthcare, competition is not required for tiered care. Competition in areas where skill or quality is not something that is being selected for is useless. Healthcare is just paperwork. It's just the process of determining which claims to fund. The government can do this - hell, an AI robot will probably be able to eventually do this - without the competition, and all that wasted money which ultimately comes from the pockets of the subscribers. Think of it - if 50% of a company's revenues are spent on healthcare in the public sector, while 97% are spent in the public sector, where does all that money go? It's just waste; competitive waste, profit waste, administrative waste. So much garbage. Competition, sometimes, is simply inefficient.

That would depend on where that person is smoking. If he's on private property (not yours), then the government should not step in. Ideally, we have as little public property as possible. If it's on your property, you should be the primary person to prevent it.

If a banker makes risky bets with your money, but did not steal it, then the government shouldn't need to step in. So long as the banker wasn't harming you, and did what you asked, then there is no problem.

For water bottles. No, the government does not need to step in.

As for pollution, it would depend on whether such pollution extends past one's own private property, onto the property of another.

The issue is how much freedom we are willing to give up in the name of efficiency. Technically, communism is quite efficient on paper (it has never been practiced on any real scale), but does not allow for a great deal of freedom.

I should add, I'm more of a supporter of voluntary government than anything else. Even socialism can be entirely voluntary, if humans decide to try it.

[prwraith]

I plan on minding my own business, which also means my own money. I want to make sure everyone else is free to do the same. See, not evil. I have killed nobody.

Oh for gods sake. I see the problem you have. You can only think of things one at a time. A sequence of events is beyond your mental faculties.

Honestly. If you are minding your own business and want everyone else to not be involved if they choose not to in system which saves lives. Then there will be loss of life as a result. Do you want me to draw you a picture of the results of your choosing inaction and advocating for a general stoppage of healthcare?

A flow chart?
A series of pictures?

Because honestly you're either trolling the forum at this point, or you really are incapable of putting a string of ideas together.

[Kiri]

I am opposed to both the ACA and Trumpcares, and yes, even single payer. I would prefer that the government stop trying to be the solution.

The government has to be the solution, as healthcare induces a market failure. Adverse selection, tech-monopolies, products without substitutes, those the free market cannot resolve itself.

[Tehshocka]

That you have a BSEE does not guarantee that you're educated in how healthcare works. Unless they teach healthcare in electrical engineering courses now?

Its nothing to be ashamed of, I didn't know jack shit about healthcare until I started reading more into it in order to investigate some of the claims being made on these boards. Evidence will win arguments.

No but they clearly teach critical thinking LOL!

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See now we're in agreement. I think the ACA needs a TON of work. And all of those things you listed, I absolutely support.

I guess the only thing we probably disagree on is how it's funded. Because the only part I wouldn't compromise on is that everyone deserves quality healthcare in the US.

And that's fair man, we can agree to disagree on the funding portion.

[Machismo]

Oh for gods sake. I see the problem you have. You can only think of things one at a time. A sequence of events is beyond your mental faculties.

How much do you donate to help out Africa?

I understand the sequence of events just fine. I guess I can say you are a killer, because your tax dollars have inevitably gone to a government venture that resulted in deaths.

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The government has to be the solution, as healthcare induces a market failure. Adverse selection, tech-monopolies, products without substitutes, those the free market cannot resolve itself.

There's one problem, the government is also the reason it is failing. It can also be the solution, by stopping itself from being the problem in the first place.

[Machismo]

Oh look CNN doing predictions again. Like all their talk about how *this race is over* regarding my candidacy for president.

Or when their so-called experts proclaim my policies would be bad for economy.

In reality and national debt which tripled under Obama is down 12 billions. The Dow Jones is highest in history -we're making history, folks- and that is before I even introduced tax cuts to boost economy.

CNN is fake news!

The debt did not triple under Obama, the debt fluctuates, and is set to go significantly higher...

I love alternative facts.

[prwraith]

How much do you donate to help out Africa?

I understand the sequence of events just fine. I guess I can say you are a killer, because your tax dollars have inevitably gone to a government venture that resulted in deaths.

That's the same as saying that because you had a kid and forty generations from now he turns out to be mega hitler, you're now a mass murderer. You didn't know that was going to happen but it unfortunately did. Did I know that public tax dollars going to a new drug killed a few people or that it would happen. No.

But you DO KNOW what will happen if you remove healthcare. There's a difference. And you can keep throwing faulty arguments at me and I can keep smacking them down.

[Machismo]

That's the same as saying that because you had a kid and forty generations from now he turns out to be mega hitler, you're now a mass murderer. You didn't know that was going to happen but it unfortunately did. Did I know that public tax dollars going to a new drug killed a few people or that it would happen. No.

But you DO KNOW what will happen if you remove healthcare. There's a difference. And you can keep throwing faulty arguments at me and I can keep smacking them down.

I'm not removing healthcare, I simply support not forcing others to pay for it for you. I'm not stopping anyone from going to the doctor. I'm simply not supporting you as you are taking money out of the wallets of complete strangers on your way to the doctor's office.