Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[stutter01]

We don't desperately need magic DR at all. The only time it's ever an issue is Krosus where you are constantly taking large magic damage for most of the fight. It's not like that is a VDH exclusive problem either as pretty much every tank spec except for brewmaster sucks at any kind of constant magic DR.

In the vast majority of situations wards and SB are going to cover almost any dangerous magic damage. Magic DR is hardly a weakness and it just shows how someone who never tanked a mythic boss shouldn't be trying to give people advice on tanking.

Druids can keep their magic DR up 100% of the time, they probably have it easiest. Magic DR is a weakness for DH, my guild is sitting the VDH tank for mythic Krosus, he's just too squishy. Compared to my Druid (I switched from a VDH) and the Blood DK. I'm not saying that he can't tank the encounter, it's that my healers don't want to deal with a VDH tank on that fight.

[Super Kami Dende]

Munkky do you think the new change to lower armor but higher dmg reduction will still be beneficial with much higher ilvl in very end-gear expansion? People say on PTR DHs take 1-2% less dmg than on live now cuz of that change but will that remain later on ? (logic says it will cuz armor has BIG time diminishing returns the higher it gets)

I think the best part about 10% flat dmg reduction is that it is always 10% dmg reduction. Whereas Armor as you said has diminishing returns and many boss abilities can go through armor.

I think I would always just prefer 10% Dmg Reduction over 45% armor.

[daiceman]

Munkky do you think the new change to lower armor but higher dmg reduction will still be beneficial with much higher ilvl in very end-gear expansion? People say on PTR DHs take 1-2% less dmg than on live now cuz of that change but will that remain later on ? (logic says it will cuz armor has BIG time diminishing returns the higher it gets)

The inflection point is at around 7500 armor, which is you should hit when your gear hits an average of 925 ilevel.

[Tech614]

Druids can keep their magic DR up 100% of the time, they probably have it easiest. Magic DR is a weakness for DH, my guild is sitting the VDH tank for mythic Krosus, he's just too squishy. Compared to my Druid (I switched from a VDH) and the Blood DK. I'm not saying that he can't tank the encounter, it's that my healers don't want to deal with a VDH tank on that fight.

VDH is not the best tank for Krosus or even close to it, but VDH is not the best tank for any encounter in NH. Magic DR has very little to do with it, Krosus is a unique encounter where MV and MoU shine but a gaurdian has to make sacrifices to keep up mark anywhere near 100%. A brewmaster literally takes 1 talent and plays the exact same regardless. Also I hardly think a Blood DK is better at Krosus then a VDH, at best it's a dead heat which sounds like a l2p issue if he actually needed to be benched for a Blood.

In reality a fight like Krosus where 80+% of damage in take is magic and it's a constant ticking DoT is rare. In most situations magic damage comes in a burst which VDH is more then equipped to handle.

Unless they start putting all Krosus encounters in raids this change does jack shit for the standing of VDH, they will still be middle of the pack and best at nothing. It's a fluff change to act like they're doing something when the flaws of the spec remain.

[Munkky]

Munkky do you think the new change to lower armor but higher dmg reduction will still be beneficial with much higher ilvl in very end-gear expansion? People say on PTR DHs take 1-2% less dmg than on live now cuz of that change but will that remain later on ? (logic says it will cuz armor has BIG time diminishing returns the higher it gets)

It's a nerf to scaling, so yes in the long term we will have slightly less damage reduction, depending on how they scale up gear. Right now it's roughly a 5% gain on Physical DR and the 10% increase to magical. So we are in a better place than on live for sure.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't desperately need magic DR at all. The only time it's ever an issue is Krosus where you are constantly taking large magic damage for most of the fight. It's not like that is a VDH exclusive problem either as pretty much every tank spec except for brewmaster sucks at any kind of constant magic DR.

In the vast majority of situations wards and SB are going to cover almost any dangerous magic damage. Magic DR is hardly a weakness and it just shows how someone who never tanked a mythic boss shouldn't be trying to give people advice on tanking.

VDH is not the best tank for Krosus or even close to it, but VDH is not the best tank for any encounter in NH. Magic DR has very little to do with it, Krosus is a unique encounter where MV and MoU shine but a gaurdian has to make sacrifices to keep up mark anywhere near 100%. A brewmaster literally takes 1 talent and plays the exact same regardless. Also I hardly think a Blood DK is better at Krosus then a VDH, at best it's a dead heat which sounds like a l2p issue if he actually needed to be benched for a Blood.

In reality a fight like Krosus where 80+% of damage in take is magic and it's a constant ticking DoT is rare. In most situations magic damage comes in a burst which VDH is more then equipped to handle.

Unless they start putting all Krosus encounters in raids this change does jack shit for the standing of VDH, they will still be middle of the pack and best at nothing. It's a fluff change to act like they're doing something when the flaws of the spec remain.

You are right I exaggerated slightly in the "desperation" for magic reduction. However it is something we need/needed. I understand other tanks have issues, as my Warrior co tank just rerolled Monk while on Mythic Krosus progress. Yes others have to give up something for it or perform slightly less, however it doesn't change the fact that we are still one of the weaker tanks. It should also be noted that this was an increase to our baseline physical reduction on top of our magic reduction for higher baseline performance all around.

Every day VDH are rerolling for Nighthold because they hit Krosus or some other boss, have an alt druid or monk, and are made to re roll. I see it constantly in Discord. You can (and probably will) say it's a l2p issue, which to an extent it is. However, the exodus from VDH is growing and that shows a weakness in the class. What is the problem people have the most issues with? It's not damage, surviving in general, healing, aggro, etc. , it's magic damage. The number 1 problem that comes up is "how do i deal with magic damage". These are often people who use Soul Barrier and yes often they don't have amazing uptimes on Empower Wards or Soul Barrier, but it's also not as much of an issue.

Having said this, Magic is obviously a weakness for most tanks, but they are working on fixing that, as warriors received two buffs to their magic reduction in 7.2. To say that it isn't a weakness is terribly misguided. However it seems you'd rather try to take shots at everyone, including myself when I've let you be and haven't said shit about you or too you for it. Even though people complain every day about it.

What do I know though, I don't raid Mythic even though I have Mythic kills and that's obviously something extremely relevant to this discussion. My progress defines all the information I give and shows how shit I really am apparently. Even though that argument is usually said by the losing person who has no actual arguments and tries to hide behind their progress (or often lack of), but what do I know right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Delimit]

VDH is not the best tank for Krosus or even close to it, but VDH is not the best tank for any encounter in NH. Magic DR has very little to do with it, Krosus is a unique encounter where MV and MoU shine but a gaurdian has to make sacrifices to keep up mark anywhere near 100%. A brewmaster literally takes 1 talent and plays the exact same regardless. Also I hardly think a Blood DK is better at Krosus then a VDH, at best it's a dead heat which sounds like a l2p issue if he actually needed to be benched for a Blood.

In reality a fight like Krosus where 80+% of damage in take is magic and it's a constant ticking DoT is rare. In most situations magic damage comes in a burst which VDH is more then equipped to handle.

Unless they start putting all Krosus encounters in raids this change does jack shit for the standing of VDH, they will still be middle of the pack and best at nothing. It's a fluff change to act like they're doing something when the flaws of the spec remain.

What sacrifices are Guardians having to make? Can't Maul as much? MoU, Adaptive Fur, Pulverize as an option, etc. They handle it quite comfortably.

I will agree that it doesn't change much in the overall scope, but it doesn't sound like that's what they're going for, which was helping people finish NH. It most certainly won't fix the obvious tank distribution issues, due to imbalances.

[Deleted]

How did vengeance legendaries not get any compensation (rune master pauldrons)

I was sure this legendary would at least get 3rd stat

Bracers that do everything better did. I don't understand this move.

unfortunately i got rune masters pauldrons as my first (and currently only) legendary, what a pain. Blizzard hates me, on my warrior tank i got as my first one sephuz secret....

[DeuZWw]

My first legendary was Cloak of Fel Flames. so i really never struggled that much with Magic Damage. 15% reduction after every few 12~~13 secs for 6secs is pretty good.

i don't really raid Mythics this expansion(recently became a father, so i dont have the time. Wish i could Pug Mythics on the LFGroups).

However on Heroic/Normal, i never really had a problem with magic damage. Star and Krosus were easy to tank, have even done star stacking 3 frost debuffs before removing it just by playing my cooldowns on the right time.


I See how Krosus can be a pain, but i do also see that alot of DHs tank just do a plain rotation instead of saving Fiery Brand(for example) to mitigate the huge damage when you have 5+ stacks on you and there's also coming a slam. Same goes for Soul Barrier, i save all my soul barriers for when i have 5+ stacks, or when a slam is coming and i have nothing else to use. That plus the legendary cloak made it a very easy fight to tank on Normal and Heroic modes.

worth note that when i was undergeared for the fight i had to go with the most Survivability Build. it was pretty hard, but it was doable.


Anyway, i welcome the extra Magic Reduction. However, with the decrease in our Armor, i think its safe to assume that the Immortality trinket has become even stronger.

[daiceman]

I See how Krosus can be a pain, but i do also see that alot of DHs tank just do a plain rotation instead of saving Fiery Brand(for example) to mitigate the huge damage when you have 5+ stacks on you and there's also coming a slam. Same goes for Soul Barrier, i save all my soul barriers for when i have 5+ stacks, or when a slam is coming and i have nothing else to use. That plus the legendary cloak made it a very easy fight to tank on Normal and Heroic modes.

Krosus becomes a huge issue as you have to 3 heal it due to the DPS requirements. The fire damage you take is massive even when using fracture/painbringer cheesing.

[squirtlesquad]

For those of you who run m12+ carries and high mythics in general. What's your overall dps like after each run?
Im sitting at like 300-400k.

Ive grouped with a few dh tanks while dpsing and their damage output shits all over mine.
Consistently 500k overall.

Not sure if it's my rotation or Gear choice. Just looking to increase damage overall. Which in turn would help on skittish weeks as well.

[daiceman]

There's no real secret to DPS in dungeons. Go 3221X12. Use infernal strike on CD and keep spikes up when using soul cleave.

Biggest thing is making sure your cleave is actually hitting everything.

[pay928]

There's no real secret to DPS in dungeons. Go 3221X12. Use infernal strike on CD and keep spikes up when using soul cleave.

Biggest thing is making sure your cleave is actually hitting everything.

I had in my head spirit bomb + fracture would yield better sustained dps but this makes sense since it just maximizes DS for the extra 30% damage. Is this with or without 4pc?

[Temp name]

I had in my head spirit bomb + fracture would yield better sustained dps but this makes sense since it just maximizes DS for the extra 30% damage. Is this with or without 4pc?

I'd assume with 4p. Without 4p you can't get 100% uptime on DS, with 4p you can.

Without 4p you might want to go with something else, probably
1x2211x but I can't say for sure, and I'm not really able run sims on it atm

[Malynd]

Is there any consensus as to what the best path for picking up new traits will be with 7.2 coming next week? I figure it'll just be work on the new traits and then go back to put 4/4 in the original traits, but are there any that might warrant putting a point into before the new golden traits?

[Khiyone]

Is there any consensus as to what the best path for picking up new traits will be with 7.2 coming next week? I figure it'll just be work on the new traits and then go back to put 4/4 in the original traits, but are there any that might warrant putting a point into before the new golden traits?

Obviously get Illidari Durability first, but afterwards I'd get Fiery Demise and maybe Aura of Pain if you do a lot of m+ before the new ones. After that it most likely won't make much of a difference as to what you get (and will vary based on how much you favour damage, etc.) but I'd definitely leave Shatter the Souls for last.

Also, is anyone kind of disappointed that Flaming Soul doesn't extend Fiery Demise? Not that it'd likely be much of a difference given that we don't have any fire spenders not on a CD that can compete with Fracture, but still. . .

[Bladeweaver]

Pre T19 4p, I ran with Demonic Infusion to close the gaps with DS. Post 4p, I can keep it up all the time, eps with ftd depending if i want to use more Versa instead of haste gear

With T20, it seems like DI and haste might be more valuable once again

[Swiftshadow]

It's a nerf to scaling, so yes in the long term we will have slightly less damage reduction, depending on how they scale up gear. Right now it's roughly a 5% gain on Physical DR and the 10% increase to magical. So we are in a better place than on live for sure.

- - - Updated - - -






You are right I exaggerated slightly in the "desperation" for magic reduction. However it is something we need/needed. I understand other tanks have issues, as my Warrior co tank just rerolled Monk while on Mythic Krosus progress. Yes others have to give up something for it or perform slightly less, however it doesn't change the fact that we are still one of the weaker tanks. It should also be noted that this was an increase to our baseline physical reduction on top of our magic reduction for higher baseline performance all around.

Every day VDH are rerolling for Nighthold because they hit Krosus or some other boss, have an alt druid or monk, and are made to re roll. I see it constantly in Discord. You can (and probably will) say it's a l2p issue, which to an extent it is. However, the exodus from VDH is growing and that shows a weakness in the class. What is the problem people have the most issues with? It's not damage, surviving in general, healing, aggro, etc. , it's magic damage. The number 1 problem that comes up is "how do i deal with magic damage". These are often people who use Soul Barrier and yes often they don't have amazing uptimes on Empower Wards or Soul Barrier, but it's also not as much of an issue.

Having said this, Magic is obviously a weakness for most tanks, but they are working on fixing that, as warriors received two buffs to their magic reduction in 7.2. To say that it isn't a weakness is terribly misguided. However it seems you'd rather try to take shots at everyone, including myself when I've let you be and haven't said shit about you or too you for it. Even though people complain every day about it.

What do I know though, I don't raid Mythic even though I have Mythic kills and that's obviously something extremely relevant to this discussion. My progress defines all the information I give and shows how shit I really am apparently. Even though that argument is usually said by the losing person who has no actual arguments and tries to hide behind their progress (or often lack of), but what do I know right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have to admit, I went into legion making my veng DH my new main. I had hoped that it would be 1 of the strongest tanks considering that the DH is the new class for the expansion (just like monk in Mists). I was sadly mistaken. Can it get the job done? Yes of course. Can it get the job done smoothly and with ease? No.

I am slightly ashamed to admit that I rerolled to Bear in the middle of H EN. To give a loose example, my DH started tanking mythic 0 at ilvl 825. I can complete them no problem, but I had to be more proactive and alert. My Bear at ilvl 810 did the same thing, and I breezed through the mythic 0s. My point is, even at such non-challenging content, the difference in tanking effectiveness still feels significant.

I still tank with the DH now and then, but for raiding I use my Bear.

I really miss glide and infernal strike though lols.

[redfella]

We don't desperately need magic DR at all. The only time it's ever an issue is Krosus where you are constantly taking large magic damage for most of the fight. It's not like that is a VDH exclusive problem either as pretty much every tank spec except for brewmaster sucks at any kind of constant magic DR.

In the vast majority of situations wards and SB are going to cover almost any dangerous magic damage. Magic DR is hardly a weakness and it just shows how someone who never tanked a mythic boss shouldn't be trying to give people advice on tanking.

I mostly lurk nowadays but after reading this I felt I need to chip in a bit. Krosus, Botanist P3, Augur and Tich (soaks) are most likely the most magic damage intense fights Nighthold has thrown at us (Can't speak of Elisande / Gul'dan as I haven't progressed that far yet). The Magic to Physical ratio is quite high on all of the bosses, but these three at least have such damage output, that is actually threatening even with competent healers.

1) On Tichondrius since you can't ride out both the initial damage and the dot both from soaking with just Empower Wards and Soul Barrier even if you chain the uptimes smartly -- my co-tank has to utilize externals there or survival while running out with both bloods and the soak dot on Tich will be dangerous. His gear is better than mine and he has a lvl 54 weap while mine is still at lvl 50.

2) On Botanist taking the Parasitic Fetter for a prolonged time is a definite raid DPS increase since it means less adds and raid movement, and again, Druids and Monks shine there and can even pull the last phase without a tank swap at all -- while classes that only have intermittent Magic DR have to swap a couple of times when the damage rises too high (For example, I'm eating over 3M per tick post-stagger hits from Parasitic Fetter on my Monk comfortably and can delay a swap to around 25% boss HP).

3) On Krosus, failing a tank swap and a DH getting high stacks is really dodgy, where as Monk and Druid have additional damage reductions to fall back on on top of their already 100% uptime AM DR against magic. Damage intake when tank swaps are done properly is not an issue to any of the tanks ingame, with the gear people are progressing/farming Krosus on at the moment. Maybe at week 1 of Mythic a DH / Warr could have been a liability there.

4) There have been Vengeance DHs to solotank M Augur before the nerfs, but you can quickly draw conclusions from the amount of individuals who have done so and the external healing required for the ones who did it. It's far from optimal and you arent' doing your raid any favours if you can have a Druid / Monk do it. Post-nerf you can tank it with two tanks easily, but doing it on one tank even after nerf has advantages.

What I'm going for here is a pattern: All classes can handle Magic nukes pretty well. Only two classes have a toolkit that is optimal versus prolonged very high magic damage intake. The latter is why Blizzard already stated they will be looking for a way to change MoU and I'd imagine Blizz are again cursing at how powerful stagger has become again (third expansion already where they try to balance it and it either ends up underpowered or overpowered).

Edit: I too started this expac wanting to main DH, but tanking on him feels so much more stressfull and requires an alert mind compared to the mostly retroactive style of purifying accrued stagger. I still like playing DH more when it comes to solo content and 5man content, but in raids.. well.. High EHP tanks rarely die of smaller mistakes, which can cost the life for the lower EHP ones (DH/DK). I didn't want to be a liability on progress after how I felt like progressing Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor. I never want to cause wipes on progress, and I cause them more often as DH.

[Asphodel]

Edit: I too started this expac wanting to main DH, but tanking on him feels so much more stressfull and requires an alert mind compared to the mostly retroactive style of purifying accrued stagger. I still like playing DH more when it comes to solo content and 5man content, but in raids.. well.. High EHP tanks rarely die of smaller mistakes, which can cost the life for the lower EHP ones (DH/DK). I didn't want to be a liability on progress after how I felt like progressing Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor. I never want to cause wipes on progress, and I cause them more often as DH.

Well said. I mained Guardian in WoD, and, even though I found the class a bit boring then, I never felt a liability. If someone would offer me to swap my DH tank for a similarly geared Guardian, I'd take them up on the offer.

[Munkky]

For those wondering about 7.2 artifact and everything, I'm going to update the guides sunday. This time with Videos.