[TV] Marvel's Iron Fist

[Faroth]

I mean, if you pay attention to what Davos says, the Iron Fist's one real job is to guard that passageway.

I wasn't a fan of that. From what I recall of the little bitty comic knowledge I had, I thought the Iron Fist was meant to right wrongs on Earth as well, not just train for 15 years in preparation for the gateway to open and hang out or fight intruders, then wait and train another 15 years for the next opening.

Plus having The Hand being the "immortal enemy" of K'un Lun is just a poor idea. They should have established Gao's connection to the other city of Heaven as K'un Lun's rival and her having positioned herself to manipulating the Hand here being the link to Daredevil, etc.

I mean, they're going to have to bring up the other cities. She's using Steel Serpent's symbol and it only makes sense Davos is going to become the Immortal Weapon of that city to oppose Danny. Pretty sure he's Steel Serpent's champion in the comics from what I've been told.

[Endus]

But the passageway is only open once every 15 years. And they said it was going to close soon. So what does he guard when it's closed?

The passageway.

Like I said; it's monumentally wasteful. Which is why I have to assume it's a deliberate plot choice.

I wasn't a fan of that. From what I recall of the little bitty comic knowledge I had, I thought the Iron Fist was meant to right wrongs on Earth as well, not just train for 15 years in preparation for the gateway to open and hang out or fight intruders, then wait and train another 15 years for the next opening.

It's a bit weird, in the comics, since Danny rewriting what the Iron Fist is "meant to be" is sort of the point. He clearly establishes that Earthly interests are something the Iron Fist should be concerned with, though. And you'd think that finding out that the Hand is so firmly established there would get the monks to agree, but Davos clearly doesn't.

Plus having The Hand being the "immortal enemy" of K'un Lun is just a poor idea. They should have established Gao's connection to the other city of Heaven as K'un Lun's rival and her having positioned herself to manipulating the Hand here being the link to Daredevil, etc.

I mean, they're going to have to bring up the other cities. She's using Steel Serpent's symbol and it only makes sense Davos is going to become the Immortal Weapon of that city to oppose Danny. Pretty sure he's Steel Serpent's champion in the comics from what I've been told.

The Steel Serpent stuff was originated in K'un-Lun, in Earth-616; http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Davos_(Earth-616)

The Steel Serpent is from K'un-Lun. He's later brought back from the dead by Crane Mother, and becomes the Champion of K'un-Zi, but that's not where the Steel Serpent stuff comes from; he was already known by that name for years. It actually prompts him to call himself "Steel Phoenix", instead (a more fitting label to the champion of the Cranes).

Given that the Order of the Crane Mother is based in K'un-Lun in Earth-199999, apparently, I think they're reworking the seven cities of heaven. This all fits really well together if Madame Gao is Crane Mother in exile, and her Order has corrupted the Iron Fist's teachings to make him weaker than he should be, while also eliminating all opposition. If her goal is to bring down K'un-Lun for her exile, that plays into that plot really handily.

It really bears repeating that the cinematic universe (which includes the Netflix shows) is the Earth-199999 setting. It's not the same as Earth-616. It's a rough amalgam of Earth-616 and Earth-1610 (Ultimates universe, most obvious example being Sam Jackson as Nick Fury), with some new stuff as they decide they want it. While we can make suppositions based on stuff from Earth-616, none of that is automatic canon for Earth-199999.

[Faroth]

Totally agree (Though I thought it was just 1999 for the MCU number). I just think linking K'un Lun vs The Hand was kind of disappointing for me. Plus we haven't delved further into Stick's group, only glimpsed Stone, and their ongoing war against the Hand. I'm hoping they don't pull some connection to K'un Lun with them as well.

I wonder if evil resurrected Elektra is leading the Hand that the Defenders will face off against or if they'll save her for another DD season.

[Deleted]

Indeed it would, fingers crossed that's what they go for!



To be fair, neither did Charlie Cox, or any of the other leads. The difference is they had MONTHS to prepare and improve their skills, whereas if the rumours are to be believed, Finn had DAYS to get ready, sometimes not even that long.

Sadly, as hyped as I was for IF and as much as I enjoyed it... I think it's best we just pretend this season never aired, then hope the can improve on the character in the Defenders and IF Season 2.

This is true and I can't blame Finn Jones for it. But if the showrunner knew that time was short, why not cast someone pre-trained? If Finn had given a stunning performance to make up for the mediocre fight scenes there sure it would have made sense to cast him. But we got no such thing.

[Deleted]

Well we don't really get to see K'un L'un and from what we do see of it, it's a pretty abusive place. Hopefully in season 2 we can visit it and actually see some fleshed out Asian characters and I'll see that as a big step forward. But as it is all asian characters bar colleen (and come to think of it the blind beggar who we see for like two minutes) are portrayed as iredeemable bad guys.

Sorry but settles it your just a ... SJW that cries "racism" just to be cool but in reality are just as racist as Trump yourself because YOU are the one stereotyping.

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I'm not really sure what we are debating here. It is a numerical fact that virtually all of the asian characters are portrayed as bad guys. Are you actually debating that?

yes cause what you are saying there is complete and utter bullshit.

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In that case the other candidates must have been very poor indeed. I was happy to see Finn Jones getting a lead role after seeing him in Game of Thrones, but his performance as Danny was bland at best and outright unlikeable at worst. Funnily enough one of the candidates for an asian iron fist - Lewis Tan - was in the series. He was the drunken ninja and in five minutes he displayed more charisma than Danny did in the entire season.

For a SJW like you maybe. I thought he was good as Drunken Master but he would have been a TERRIBLE Iron Fist.

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Except the show had loads of martial arts asians anyway. So if you're going to have that let's at least have martial arts practising asians who are three dimensional characters and who aren't all evil. And then you can have white people practising martial arts as well.

Are you really that DEAF that you CANT understand that being the total OUTSIDER is part of finns backstory?
yeah lets go with an asian for that role can only be utter by someone who doesnt understand that.....

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Why are people too dumb to understand that training is obviously over when you are deemed worthy to fight the dragon ? That's pretty much the definition of the Iron fist : the best warrior of K'un L'un.

You should at least watch the show he even states that he wants to go back to FINISH his training.....

[Deleted]

Are you really that DEAF that you CANT understand that being the total OUTSIDER is part of finns backstory?
yeah lets go with an asian for that role can only be utter by someone who doesnt understand that.....

I'm not really going to respond to the continued "pointing out racism is racist!" argument because I think it's an argument so fallacious that it is not worthy of response.

But as to this point, having a mixed race asian actor like Lewis Tan as the Iron Fist would actually have resonated more strongly with the themes of Danny being an outsider. Danny is both an outsider to K'un L'un and to New York. This could have reflected the mixed race experience which Lewis Tan talks about in the article I linked earlier. Far from being contrary to the theme, casting a mixed race actor would have lent new subtext to Danny's outsider-ness.

[Beazy]

I'm not really going to respond to the continued "pointing out racism is racist!" argument because I think it's an argument so fallacious that it is not worthy of response.

You're not pointing out racism though. No matter how many times you say this stupid shit, its never going to become true.

[Berndorf]

The only casting people should have acted at all outraged over was Davos as a middle eastern looking guy with a British accent. Davos should have been Asian.

[Endus]

I'm not really going to respond to the continued "pointing out racism is racist!" argument because I think it's an argument so fallacious that it is not worthy of response.

Well, it wasn't "racism" at all, to begin with. Is the problem.

There are plenty of "good" Asian characters in the show. Colleen is the obvious one. "But she's part of the Hand!" you say? Yeah, but she'd NEVER done anything questionable. And when asked to, she realized how far she was being asked to go, and betrayed the Hand. Because her moral center was too strong.

Presenting her as an "evil" character is just . . . wrong. When Danny's yelling "But you're part of the Hand!" at her, Danny's the one who's acting badly. Not Colleen. That was sort of the point of that scene.

But as to this point, having a mixed race asian actor like Lewis Tan as the Iron Fist would actually have resonated more strongly with the themes of Danny being an outsider. Danny is both an outsider to K'un L'un and to New York. This could have reflected the mixed race experience which Lewis Tan talks about in the article I linked earlier. Far from being contrary to the theme, casting a mixed race actor would have lent new subtext to Danny's outsider-ness.

It would have muddied it. Because then, it would've been confused by a discussion of race alone. Tan's portrayal would've been summed up with "interracial kids get shit on from both ethnic groups their parents belong to" message. It would've lost the rest of it.

They tried to remove race as a discussion point in the series. In the comics, K'un-lun is basically Tibetan. In the cinematic verse, it's clearly multiethnic, if the garb and setting lean Tibetan. Davos clearly isn't Tibetan, ethnically speaking, but he was born in K'un-Lun. The only reason race is coming up at all is through this "martial artists need to be Asian" garbage, which is racist.

Danny was an outsider in K'un-Lun not because he was white, but because he was a foundling, who hadn't been raised in their traditions. Danny was an outsider in New York because he'd been gone for 15 years, and had some odd mannerisms as a result of where he'd grown up in that time. Lewis Tan's ethnicity wouldn't have been something important in the K'un-Lun we were presented with, and it would only have potentially distracted from the issues in New York, by putting racist overtones over everything.

That's not "subtext". That's text that threatens to overwhelm the actual themes in question.

[Ealyssa]

I mean, if you pay attention to what Davos says, the Iron Fist's one real job is to guard that passageway.

I'm assuming the writers have planned for that to be a stupid-ass waste of an Iron Fist, so there's some big reason. Like, maybe, the Crane Mothers aren't really enemies of the Hand; they pass on the myth, but they keep the Iron Fist in K'un-Lun, where the Hand isn't. A Hand that's destined to destroy the Hand but never LOOKS for the Hand isn't going to achieve that destiny. Would play into Madame Gao being Crane Mother herself. Also explains why they wouldn't teach them anything but "punch stuff real hard".

No clue if they're still doing the tournament between the seven cities of heaven stuff in the cinematic universe, but that's just every 88 years anyway, but that'd be the only other thing the Iron Fist is doing, currently.

I could buy that if Danny didn't have a vision of Yu-ti. But I agree the TV version of all the mystic cities is quite confusing, as the crane mother is normally not linked to K'un Lun but to K'un Zi.

Maybe they let space for a possible corrupt Yu-ti ? I remember an arc where he is actually corrupt and at the end overthrown by a secret society of women trained by Lei-kung ?

Well, it wasn't "racism" at all, to begin with. Is the problem.

Sure asking for an asian IF isn't racism, even if stupid.

But saying that the show is bad because IF is white is textbook racism. Just like saying LC is bad because he is black.

And to be 100% clear I have no issues with diversity as long as it's not stupidly forced into an existing character, asian IF making nearly as much sense than a white Luke Cage. My personal wet dream being a "White Tiger" show (Angela Del Toro version)

[Endus]

I could buy that if Danny didn't have a vision of Yu-ti. But I agree the TV version of all the mystic cities is quite confusing, as the crane mother is normally not linked to K'un Lun but to K'un Zi.

Maybe they let space for a possible corrupt Yu-ti ? I remember an arc where he is actually corrupt and at the end overthrown by a secret society of women trained by Lei-kung ?

I wouldn't make any solid claims at all. Between the inspiration of Earth-616 and what we've seen, the "Madame Gao is Crane Mother" thing has some narrative heft, in terms of being a nice way to tie off a bunch of threads, but she could easily be someone entirely different. Her name's no hint; "Gao" just means "high" or "tall", as a surname.

It's clear they're not copying Earth-616 directly. So complaints about things like "they wasted the Bride of 9 Spiders" doesn't mean much; we don't know that the Bride was a champion of any of the cities, in this setting. She may just be, basically, an easter egg, referencing the Earth-616 character.

[Deleted]

Well, it wasn't "racism" at all, to begin with. Is the problem.

There are plenty of "good" Asian characters in the show. Colleen is the obvious one. "But she's part of the Hand!" you say? Yeah, but she'd NEVER done anything questionable. And when asked to, she realized how far she was being asked to go, and betrayed the Hand. Because her moral center was too strong.

Presenting her as an "evil" character is just . . . wrong. When Danny's yelling "But you're part of the Hand!" at her, Danny's the one who's acting badly. Not Colleen. That was sort of the point of that scene.

If you've been reading the thread you'll see that I never called Colleen an evil character. So I'm not really sure why you're presenting this argument to me. The trouble is that Colleen is the only asian character who is portrayed in a positive light. A show about asian culture where the vast majority of asian characters are evil and the protagonist is white? To me that just feels incredibly tone deaf.

It would have muddied it. Because then, it would've been confused by a discussion of race alone. Tan's portrayal would've been summed up with "interracial kids get shit on from both ethnic groups their parents belong to" message. It would've lost the rest of it.

They tried to remove race as a discussion point in the series. In the comics, K'un-lun is basically Tibetan. In the cinematic verse, it's clearly multiethnic, if the garb and setting lean Tibetan. Davos clearly isn't Tibetan, ethnically speaking, but he was born in K'un-Lun. The only reason race is coming up at all is through this "martial artists need to be Asian" garbage, which is racist.

You are fundamentally missing my point here. The point is not that martial artists must be asian. The point is that the martial arts originate from asian culture, so it'd be nice if asian people were the ones who got to represent it in a positive light. Rather than Just having ninjas used as stock bad guys for the hundredth time, let's have an actual exploration of asian culture by asian people.

Danny was an outsider in K'un-Lun not because he was white, but because he was a foundling, who hadn't been raised in their traditions. Danny was an outsider in New York because he'd been gone for 15 years, and had some odd mannerisms as a result of where he'd grown up in that time. Lewis Tan's ethnicity wouldn't have been something important in the K'un-Lun we were presented with, and it would only have potentially distracted from the issues in New York, by putting racist overtones over everything.

That's not "subtext". That's text that threatens to overwhelm the actual themes in question.

Funnily enough this is kind of what I have been saying - Danny is not an outsider in K'un L'un because he is white. Ergo, unlike what some people have been claiming, he doesn't have to be white for his story to work.

I'm not getting your argument that the story would be muddied by making it an allegory for the experience of being mixed race. Luke Cage handled the topic of racism very directly. Did that muddy the story in your opinion? Me, I think it made it a smarter and stronger show.

[Endus]

If you've been reading the thread you'll see that I never called Colleen an evil character. So I'm not really sure why you're presenting this argument to me. The trouble is that Colleen is the only asian character who is portrayed in a positive light. A show about asian culture where the vast majority of asian characters are evil and the protagonist is white? To me that just feels incredibly tone deaf.

It's not "about Asian culture". A lot more focus is spent on New York business dynamics than anything Asian.

And how many other Asian characters are there? Madame Gao, I grant. Zhou Cheng, yes. The Yang Triad. Two people, and an ethnic gang from China. The Yangs don't really figure prominently outside one episode. Zhou Cheng is there for one fight, really. There's all the monks in K'un-Lun we see, none of whom come off as "evil", just harsh, but the training is highly comparable to that in Shaolin temples, and there's no real suggestion Danny was forced into it. Most of the main antagonists, outside of Gao, aren't Asian. The Meachums clearly aren't. Davos is from K'un-Lun, and isn't Asian. Bakuto is hispanic. The Hand is highly diverse.

There is no "vast majority of Asian characters are evil" aspect. And the majority of antagonists aren't Asian.

You are fundamentally missing my point here. The point is not that martial artists must be asian. The point is that the martial arts originate from asian culture, so it'd be nice if asian people were the ones who got to represent it in a positive light. Rather than Just having ninjas used as stock bad guys for the hundredth time, let's have an actual exploration of asian culture by asian people.

Are you seriously arguing cultural appropriation?

Why not argue that the Yang triad was "bad" because they wore suits and not traditional Chinese garb? It's silly. You are arguing that Danny had to be Asian because he does martial arts and that's Asian. C'mon.

Funnily enough this is kind of what I have been saying - Danny is not an outsider in K'un L'un because he is white. Ergo, unlike what some people have been claiming, he doesn't have to be white for his story to work.

Nobody said he "had to be white". I was pointing out that making him interracial and making his outsider status be about that interracial parentage, that muddies the themes.

I'm not getting your argument that the story would be muddied by making it an allegory for the experience of being mixed race. Luke Cage handled the topic of racism very directly. Did that muddy the story in your opinion? Me, I think it made it a smarter and stronger show.

Because issues of race were a central theme.

They aren't, in Iron Fist.

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I am watching a second time and still don't really enjoy large chunks of the show. It has some moments that are great, but it is let down by the rushed nature of the production. I hope we get The Defenders before Comic Con as I am seriously hoping for some Danny Rand redemption. He has a ton of potential, but the lack of prep lets this series down.

I think the biggest issue is that Iron Fist just doesn't really play well as a solo act. Even if you look at the show, they had to constantly put other allies in the room.

They need someone like Danny to be the moral center of the Defenders (not to mention the wallet), and if they let him bring the snarky sarcasm, he can be the release valve too, since Matt, Jessica, and Luke are all relatively grim individuals. They need someone around to take the piss, and Claire can't always fill that void (though Dawson does a fantastic job).

[GKLeatherCraft]

I watched DD, And loved that show, Then I watched LC and thought that was pretty good too, Been watching this, Upto episode 6-7 I think, And all though I do like it, I do find the fight scenes so far to be quite bad, Considering he's supposed to have been training all these years, But meh, And I'd like to watch The Defenders, So I guess after this series I might watch JJ, So I've got a good picture of all the characters.

[Svifnymr]

If you've been reading the thread you'll see that I never called Colleen an evil character. So I'm not really sure why you're presenting this argument to me. The trouble is that Colleen is the only asian character who is portrayed in a positive light. A show about asian culture where the vast majority of asian characters are evil and the protagonist is white? To me that just feels incredibly tone deaf.

Again, I think the problem you're ignoring is that there are only two objectively "good" characters at all, Danny and Clair. Colleen is mostly good too, but other than the first two all have varying shades of gray. Certainly Colleen is the "only" Asian character portrayed in a positive light (ignoring students), and that balances well with Danny being the only WHITE character portrayed in a positive light and Clair being the only BLACK character portrayed in a positive light. Seems balanced.

[Beazy]

I wonder, when the Defenders go "live", will Cage have a child with Jones like in the comics? Or are they going to change it up to Claire?

[Svifnymr]

Why not argue that the Yang triad was "bad" because they wore suits and not traditional Japanese garb? It's silly. You are arguing that Danny had to be Asian because he does martial arts and that's Asian. C'mon.

OMG! Traids are Chinese! Yakuza = Japanese!

[Endus]

OMG! Traids are Chinese! Yakuza = Japanese!

Y'know, I KNOW that, but for some reason, my brain crossed a wire. Edited a correction in.

[Svifnymr]

Why are people too dumb to understand that training is obviously over when you are deemed worthy to fight the dragon ? That's pretty much the definition of the Iron fist : the best warrior of K'un L'un.

He was the best warrior of Kun Lun, but had no experience or training as the Iron Fist, apparently. He didn't know any of his powers. While the Hand wanted to make it seem like "oh, how could they not tell you you can heal", it seems a little misplaced when we learn that apparently Danny literally became the Iron Fist, walked outside, saw an eagle marking the opening of the gateway, then left. I mean, I guess there was an undisclosed amount of time between Davos finding him at the river and him standing in the passage and seeing the eagle, but obviously not much unless I misread the situation.

[Beazy]

It's clear they're not copying Earth-616 directly.

Damn, and I thought I was a super comic fan, this fkn guy knows the Time Line ID.
I had to google it. =oO

/fistbump