[TV] Marvel's Iron Fist

[Svifnymr]

Y'know, I KNOW that, but for some reason, my brain crossed a wire. Edited a correction in.

I just think it's funny, since the discussions about racism in Iron Fist just label everything as Asian while ignoring Japanese vs Chinese, let alone Tibetan. Might as well argue that some Greek guy should have played Heimdall since it's more authentic than Idris as a Norse, and all white folks are the same, duh.

[Deleted]

It's not "about Asian culture". A lot more focus is spent on New York business dynamics than anything Asian.

I think it's incredibly disingenuous to argue that the lore of Iron Fist is not based in asian culture.

And how many other Asian characters are there? Madame Gao, I grant. Zhou Cheng, yes. The Yang Triad. Two people, and an ethnic gang from China. The Yangs don't really figure prominently outside one episode. Zhou Cheng is there for one fight, really. There's all the monks in K'un-Lun we see, none of whom come off as "evil", just harsh, but the training is highly comparable to that in Shaolin temples, and there's no real suggestion Danny was forced into it. Most of the main antagonists, outside of Gao, aren't Asian. The Meachums clearly aren't. Davos is from K'un-Lun, and isn't Asian. Bakuto is hispanic. The Hand is highly diverse.

There is no "vast majority of Asian characters are evil" aspect. And the majority of antagonists aren't Asian.

Yes the majority of antagonists aren't asian, but that was not my point. My point was that all of the asian characters save Colleen are villains. Gao, Zhou Cheng, The Bride of Nine Spiders, the third champion in the tournament episode, a few of Colleen's students in her dojo who side with the hand against her and the Triads. All villains and what's more villains heavily associated with racial stereotypes, from evil ninjas, to triad goons, to a fetishized and oversexualised stereotype of asian women.

Are you seriously arguing cultural appropriation?

Yes.

Why not argue that the Yang triad was "bad" because they wore suits and not traditional Japanese garb? It's silly. You are arguing that Danny had to be Asian because he does martial arts and that's Asian. C'mon.

That's really not what I'm saying. Don't tell me what my own argument is. I had no inherent problem with Danny being white, I just feel it was handled very poorly.

Nobody said he "had to be white".

Read the rest of the thread, people have said exactly this.

I was pointing out that making him interracial and making his outsider status be about that interracial parentage, that muddies the themes.

It wouldn't be making his outsider status about his mixed race, it would just be a parallel. Mixed race audience members could have seen a mixed race actor in the part and I think for many it would have made his arc feel relatable to them, as Tan himself has said.

Because issues of race were a central theme.

They aren't, in Iron Fist.

Well I think they should have been. Ignoring the discussion of appropriation came across as incredibly tone deaf and it often made Danny come across as incredibly patronising, especially towards Colleen.

[Endus]

Damn, and I thought I was a super comic fan, this fkn guy knows the Time Line ID.
I had to google it. =oO

/fistbump

I bought a year's subscription to Marvel Unlimited a while back. Access to pretty much the entire Marvel catalog, minus the last 6 months or so. If you like comics but don't want to buy thousands of dollars worth of books, it's a pretty fantastic way to catch up.

Earth-616 is basically the only ID code I actually know, the others I have to look up.

I just think it's funny, since the discussions about racism in Iron Fist just label everything as Asian while ignoring Japanese vs Chinese, let alone Tibetan. Might as well argue that some Greek guy should have played Heimdall since it's more authentic than Idris as a Norse, and all white folks are the same, duh.

Yeah, I'm usually really careful about that stuff. Not just Chinese, either, in a lot of cases, you should break stuff down by region; calling something "Chinese" is almost like calling it "European", there's a ton of variety in that one nation.

I was just juggling some stuff about the Hand in my head at the same time and a wire got crossed when talking about the Triad gang.

[ohiostate124]

He was the best warrior of Kun Lun, but had no experience or training as the Iron Fist, apparently. He didn't know any of his powers. While the Hand wanted to make it seem like "oh, how could they not tell you you can heal", it seems a little misplaced when we learn that apparently Danny literally became the Iron Fist, walked outside, saw an eagle marking the opening of the gateway, then left. I mean, I guess there was an undisclosed amount of time between Davos finding him at the river and him standing in the passage and seeing the eagle, but obviously not much unless I misread the situation.

There could be a lot going on behind the scenes. We just won't know till later. In the comics, Yu-ti who is mentioned in the show once and is the leader of K'un Lun, is corrupt. Danny is just being used and there is probably a reason he hasn't learned the full extent of his powers.

[NightZero88]

Finished up the season last night and I enjoyed it for what it was. I'm not even going to get into all this racism stuff or choreography of the fights. To me it was an enjoyable watch. I'd put it above LC, on par/slightly below JJ and below DD. My confusion is at the end. Why on earth would Joy be listening to Davos about killing Danny. When she gets shot and Bakido (sp?) is talking about Danny not showing up she's like he will, he only knows how to do the right thing. Then she sees that her dad faked Danny being guilty of the drug charges and basically cuts him out of her life. So she clearly likes Danny and thinks he's a good person then does a complete 180 and is listening intently about killing him. Even though when her dad kills that one guy she seems to be flat out against murder in any fashion. So...what the heck?

[Beazy]

I bought a year's subscription to Marvel Unlimited a while back. Access to pretty much the entire Marvel catalog, minus the last 6 months or so. If you like comics but don't want to buy thousands of dollars worth of books, it's a pretty fantastic way to catch up.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How did I not know this existed. I just visited the website and I'm getting the annual sub right now. ~~ Oh wow, It works on Android too.

Good find Endus.

[Endus]

I think it's incredibly disingenuous to argue that the lore of Iron Fist is not based in asian culture.

Technically, it's rooted in the lore of martial arts films of the '60s and '70s, more than actual Asian culture.

Regardless, there's really not a lot of that in the show itself.

Yes the majority of antagonists aren't asian, but that was not my point. My point was that all of the asian characters save Colleen are villains. Gao, Zhou Cheng, The Bride of Nine Spiders, the third champion in the tournament episode, a few of Colleen's students in her dojo who side with the hand against her and the Triads. All villains and what's more villains heavily associated with racial stereotypes, from evil ninjas, to yakuza goons, to a fetishized and oversexualised stereotype of asian women.

And, as has been pointed out several times, your claim here is wrong. There isn't just Colleen. There's a whole bunch of folks we see in the K'un-Lun flashbacks.

And, to repeat a point I just made, those aren't Asian stereotypes, they're martial arts film stereotypes, which is why they're in Iron Fist. It's kind of like getting upset at people using assault rifles in a series patterned after '80s action films, because that's a "Western stereotype".

That's really not what I'm saying. Don't tell me what my own argument is. I had no inherent problem with Danny being white, I just feel it was handled very poorly.

I can't recall a single time when it was even relevant to the show.

And before you mention "he's an outsider in K'un-Lun!", I'll remind you that K'un-Lun is multi-ethnic, and Danny was an "outsider" because he was literally brought in from outside. If he'd been Tibetan, he'd be just as much an outsider there.

It wouldn't be making his outsider status about his mixed race, it would just be a parallel. Mixed race audience members could have seen a mixed race actor in the part and I think for many it would have made his arc feel relatable to them, as Tan himself has said.

Again, that's exactly what "muddying the theme" looks like, by inserting racial divides, when that wasn't a theme to begin with.

Well I think they should have been. Ignoring the discussion of appropriation came across as incredibly tone deaf and it often made Danny come across as incredibly patronising, especially towards Colleen.

And that's not a justifiable position. You're literally annoyed that a white guy was better at martial arts than an Asian woman, because he's white and she's Asian. That's prejudice, not reason.

About the only time he was really patronising was when he started reaming out her student, and that ended with Colleen ripping him a new one for being a shithead in HER DOJO. The rest was him, rightly, knowing that he's a better fighter than Colleen is, despite her being highly skilled. Knowing that isn't "patronising", and it's correct. He's not assuming he's better because she's a girl, or she's Asian, but because he's seen her sparring, and he's been training to assess people like that for 15 years straight, sunup to sundown.

[Svifnymr]

About the only time he was really patronising was when he started reaming out her student, and that ended with Colleen ripping him a new one for being a shithead in HER DOJO. The rest was him, rightly, knowing that he's a better fighter than Colleen is, despite her being highly skilled. Knowing that isn't "patronising", and it's correct. He's not assuming he's better because she's a girl, or she's Asian, but because he's seen her sparring, and he's been training to assess people like that for 15 years straight, sunup to sundown.

I mentioned earlier, but worth repeating. He asked her about why no Chinese Kung-Fu, she didn't want it. Fiddling with her sword, she corrects him that it should be used in the Japanese style as it was intended, not the Chinese style. When she fights the lady guard, you see Japanese sword vs Chinese sword. Danny can lecture her on Kung Fu and Chi, because he is an expert on such, vs Karate or other Japanese styles. He certainly never comments on her speaking about Bushido. They don't really make judgements on which is better, but it is not (as Protar suggests) patronizing when two people discuss a style that is not "native" to either of them.

[Deleted]

Again, I think the problem you're ignoring is that there are only two objectively "good" characters at all, Danny and Clair. Colleen is mostly good too, but other than the first two all have varying shades of gray. Certainly Colleen is the "only" Asian character portrayed in a positive light (ignoring students), and that balances well with Danny being the only WHITE character portrayed in a positive light and Clair being the only BLACK character portrayed in a positive light. Seems balanced.

There are few morally pure characters in the series, but at least the meachums are developed and three dimensional characters. Joy has trouble accepting Danny at first but is relatively quite moral right up until the end of the series (the twist there really came out of nowhere). Conversely Ward is a dick but by the end of the season he is indisputably a friend and ally of Danny's.

aside from Colleen, the asian characters on the other hand don't really have much in the way of character development period, let alone development which paints them in a positive light.

[Lex Icon]

what positive light exactly is needed? i mean i doubt people will look at this and go "yup them asians are all violent gangsta motherfuckers"

the show is not about asians..

[callipygoustp]

@Endus I agree Iron Fist probably works best as the straight man to other characters, but the show still could have used another three months of prep. The lead has zero martial arts experience...

This is something that causes me to laugh a bit when I see people defend the fights in the series: both the choreographers and the actors have stated they did not have enough prep time to do the fights well.

Edit:
movie -> series

[ohiostate124]

This is something that causes me to laugh a bit when I see people defend the fights in the movie: both the choreographers and the actors have stated they did not have enough prep time to do the fights well.

Such a shame that they treated Iron Fist like this. I wouldn't have expected Marvel to do this but then again it's not the movies. We might have to wait until season 2 to see significant improvements since Defenders filming started right after Iron Fist. I believe Defenders will be better though with the new showrunner.

[Svifnymr]

This is something that causes me to laugh a bit when I see people defend the fights in the series: both the choreographers and the actors have stated they did not have enough prep time to do the fights well.

Not that I'm the thread police or anything, but I don't remember anyone saying the fights were great. Some have said they were good enough. Myself I didn't care about them for the most part, so didn't notice their quality or lack thereof. The only one I watched was Drunken Master, and it was disappointing. I mean, Daredevil had some great fight scenes, but he also had the motif of the Beat Up Guy. It was great that wounds lasted from ep to ep. IronFist shouldn't be challenged by most mooks anyway, but has a wide enough array of opponents that he could have had some fights.

But I mean, I don't think anyone is saying IF was good because of the fight scenes, or that the story was bad but the fight scenes pulled it through.

[callipygoustp]

Not that I'm the thread police or anything, but I don't remember anyone saying the fights were great. Some have said they were good enough. Myself I didn't care about them for the most part, so didn't notice their quality or lack thereof. The only one I watched was Drunken Master, and it was disappointing. I mean, Daredevil had some great fight scenes, but he also had the motif of the Beat Up Guy. It was great that wounds lasted from ep to ep. IronFist shouldn't be challenged by most mooks anyway, but has a wide enough array of opponents that he could have had some fights.

Read through the thread, there have been a few times where people have defended the quality of the fights. But, really, the context of my comment was more with regards to supporting the notion that the lack of prep time was noticeable and as such the series suffered for it: in this case, noticeable in the fights.

But I mean, I don't think anyone is saying IF was good because of the fight scenes, or that the story was bad but the fight scenes pulled it through.

Never implied that someone had.

[Svifnymr]

There are few morally pure characters in the series, but at least the meachums are developed and three dimensional characters.

Even if we include the non undead Meachums, you've added two white folks, neither of which is "good", but I guess it's about development. So we should count Gao too, I guess. Sure she was a heroin dealer, but she wasn't all bad, I'd stack her against Ward morally. Davos has as much development as Joy.

At this point I guess black people are underrepresented. Yes they had a bunch of security guards, but that doesn't seem right to count.

Oh, and Hispanic, I'm not sure why you focus so much on White Kung Fu lead while ignoring there was only one hispanic character and he was racially appropriating Japanese demon ninja culture.

aside from Colleen, the asian characters on the other hand don't really have much in the way of character development period, let alone development which paints them in a positive light.

The problem is that you've decided on an end effect and created a system to justify it. Davos is Asian (India is in Asia!), and while apparently he's a bad guy, I think he's more morally correct than most of them.

I can even see where you're coming from about someone, maybe one of the students, saying something like "hey, why is the white guy lecturing us on Chinese stuff!", but you seem to have missed the mission statement that the entire movie is racially diverse. Kun Lun, racially mixed, The Hand, racially mixed, her students? Perfect little assortment of racial/gender profiles. Even the criminal distributors and stewardess chicks. By attempting to say that X should have been "Asian", you're saying they shouldn't have made the movie racially diverse.

Except the Triad, apparently they are exclusive.

- - - Updated - - -

Read through the thread, there have been a few times where people have defended the quality of the fights. But, really, the context of my comment was more with regards to supporting the notion that the lack of prep time was noticeable and as such the series suffered for it: in this case, noticeable in the fights.


Never implied that someone had.

Yeah, if you mean "The fights ruined it" and someone says "the fights weren't completely horrible" as defending it, sure.

I think the fights were just another side effect of the overall low budget/ prep. He went into a cave and fought the Immortal Pair Of Lamps. We saw the same snow scene over and over again, and damn if it wasn't pretty fake looking anyway.

[callipygoustp]

Yeah, if you mean "The fights ruined it" and someone says "the fights weren't completely horrible" as defending it, sure.

The above is a poor defense for sure, but still a defense. You can't hand wave away a defense just because it sucks. If I was going to point to an example it would be the folks talking about the IF not being fully trained as a defense for the horrible choreography.

I think the fights were just another side effect of the overall low budget/ prep. He went into a cave and fought the Immortal Pair Of Lamps. We saw the same snow scene over and over again, and damn if it wasn't pretty fake looking anyway.

..and that was the gist of what I initially stated. Thank you for restating my comment that you quoted.

[icausewipes]

Powered thru Iron Fist and the story seemed weak.

1. Daredevil - The best of the best here.
10. Luke Cage - This was shaping up to be awesome, but killing off Cottonmouth and the Power Ranger bad guy at the end was meh.
100. Iron Fist - The story was all over the place with the sister and the dad.

[Endus]

@Endus I agree Iron Fist probably works best as the straight man to other characters, but the show still could have used another three months of prep. The lead has zero martial arts experience...

While I agree, I'm also gonna buck the trend and say "he did a damn good job for having no MA experience and little training time" and "the fights weren't THAT terrible, guys".

They're not a martial arts tour de force, and I think they should've invested the time to make it that, but mostly so it could have better set its own identity. The fights aren't as gritty and impactful as in DD, but that's a style choice, and it works fine. Not sure what TV shows people are watching where the fight scenes are always amazeballs better than these ones were. Agents of SHIELD, maybe, since Daisy went all full-agent mode, but those are relatively rare in the show anyway. If you compare the fight scenes in Iron Fist to other shows like, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, they're way better. Doesn't mean "the best ever", but they do the job okay. I wanted more than okay, but I'm not gonna shit all over Netflix over "okay" either. If we didn't have the gut-punch brutalism of Daredevil to compare his fight scenes too, I think we'd be a LOT more favorable.

Hopefully with the feedback on this, though, Season 2 (assuming we get one) takes a bit more prep time and Finn does some serious training; they've got the Defenders to come too.

About the only other thing he really had going was his run as Loras Tyrell on GoT, and that character's, like, super-dead, so if Iron Fist is his meal ticket for the near future, investing in some long-term training and prep is a smart move.

He was a bit of a prat in this series, I'm hoping the Defenders humanizes him a bit and then he can abandon the bullshit for Season 2, or at least make overcoming it a central plot point (the rages, specifically; worrying about money or running the Rand Corporation should be off the table). I understand WHY he was that way, but it's hurting the audience relatability.

[callipygoustp]

Finn Jones tells us who is really to blame for the low ratings of IF:
Finn Jones' Latest Idiotic Defence Of Iron Fist: It's Trump's Fault

[Endus]

Finn Jones tells us who is really to blame for the low ratings of IF:
Finn Jones' Latest Idiotic Defence Of Iron Fist: It's Trump's Fault

From the article;

On a purely objective level, this is bullshit. No one's bitching about Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne, who are far more representative of the uber-rich, beyond-the-law stereotype than Danny Rand is. And Arrow launched a TV universe on the back of a rich, white, billionaire character. Clearly, Iron Fist's problems lie elsewhere.

This is fucking nonsense, because did those films or shows launch during a Trump Presidency? No. And the most recent Batman vehicle was Batman v. Superman, which was panned WAY harder than Iron Fist, so I really don't think that's an example that helps their case.