Oklahoma lawmaker thinks rape can ‘bring beauty from ashes’

[Anastacy]

God doesn't approve of incest, but he only made Adam and Eve?

[Seani]

Which is probably why so many people who don't want children don't use abortion as their primary form of birth control...

There is always the risk of pregnancy. Abortion should be legal, but it shouldn't be forced on others to pay for it.

- - - Updated - - -

Why? If they can afford to pay for it, why should anyone give a damn?

Because it incurs a cost to everyone else.

[Poopymonster]

God doesn't approve of incest, but he only made Adam and Eve?

Who were listed as having only 2 boys. Abel and a homicidal green grocer.

[The Stormbringer]

The other option is to abstain from sex until you are in a stable financial situation. Planning to have sex, and then abort all the unwanted children that you conceive is a wanton lack of responsibility.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but sex can be used for things other than having children! There's this amazing thing society created thousands and thousands of years ago called 'recreational sex' which has grown more popular thanks to the use of prophylactics and other pregnancy-prevention methods, such as the pill and so on. Unfortunately these methods are only 99% effective, and so for the 1% where it slips through and an unwanted pregnancy occurs, we have abortion.

[mage21]

The other option is to abstain from sex until you are in a stable financial situation. Planning to have sex, and then abort all the unwanted children that you conceive is a wanton lack of responsibility.

Sex feels really good though, so how can a person experience the feel good without the consequences? And so, abortion was conceived....

- - - Updated - - -

That's nice, but as it's cheaper to pay for an abortion for someone who can't afford one than it is to raise a child they can't afford, I'll gladly pay for the abortion each and every time, should it fall to the taxpayers to cover one or the other. It's purely pragmatic and letting ideals get in the way only hurts yourself.

That we're determining whether an unborn child lives or dies on a cost analysis just makes me hang my head.

[Seani]

But I am discussing your logic. Your logic is flawed. It cant hold to a similar analogy

I don't think anyone picked up on your analogy but you. Slavery has nothing to do with this conversation.

[Halyon]

I don't think that's true at all, and I would challenge you to provide evidence.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/fi...EB_VERSION.pdf

This is were the statistic is. The criticism of this 3% statistic is that it's weighted equally to the other services provided...as it damned well should be...you know, to not be biased/skewed...dishonest. Other criticisms is the pricing between a medical and surgical abortion blah blah (it doesn't matter, it's an abortion either way), if they sneak in abortions in with 'other services' to pregnant women if it's part of a larger undertaking, which sure, could happen, but then the service is done by someone else, not PP. Thus not under their own abortion service, thus not eligible to be listed by them, unlike from what I can gleen from the arguments, as they tend to be very wordy and mangled to confuse readers, want to imply that they should be.

Additionally, Plan B pill is not counted as an abortion, it's a preventative measure that prevents implantation (hint; abortions require that to happen to be an abortion), so does birthcontrol pills.

So yes, abortions are only 3% give or take a few margins, which is what you asked for. Unless you're also one of those people who are against both birth control and plan b pills.

[Seani]

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but sex can be used for things other than having children! There's this amazing thing society created thousands and thousands of years ago called 'recreational sex' which has grown more popular thanks to the use of prophylactics and other pregnancy-prevention methods, such as the pill and so on. Unfortunately these methods are only 99% effective, and so for the 1% where it slips through and an unwanted pregnancy occurs, we have abortion.

You are free to engage in sex and abortion. I am only arguing that you shouldn't ask someone else to pay for your methods of contraception or abortion.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/fi...EB_VERSION.pdf

This is were the statistic is. The criticism of this 3% statistic is that it's weighted equally to the other services provided...as it damned well should be. Other criticisms is the pricing between a medical and surgical abortion blah blah (it doesn't matter, it's an abortion either way), if they sneak in abortions in with 'other services' to pregnant women if it's part of a larger undertaking, from what I can gleen from the arguments, as they tend to be very wordy and mangled to confuse readers.

Additionally, Plan B pill is not counted as an abortion, it's a preventative measure that prevents implantation (hint; abortions require that to happen to be an abortion), so does birthcontrol pills.

So yes, abortions are only 3% give or take a few margins, which is what you asked for. Unless you're also one of those people who are against both birth control and plan b pills.

Alright, you linked me 28 pages of material. Nowhere did I see evidence of the information that you cited. Can you be a little more specific? Like a page number.

[Halyon]

You are free to engage in sex and abortion. I am only arguing that you shouldn't ask someone else to pay for your methods of contraception or abortion.

You're not paying for anyone's abortions. People pay for their own abortions. They cost money. The person who needs an abortion pays for it. That said...viagra is on taxpayer money...

- - - Updated - - -

Alright, you linked me 28 pages of material. Nowhere did I see evidence of the information that you cited. Can you be a little more specific? Like a page number.

Page 17. Pretty hard to miss dude.

[The Stormbringer]

You are free to engage in sex and abortion. I am only arguing that you shouldn't ask someone else to pay for your methods of contraception or abortion.

- - - Updated - - -

Alright, you linked me 28 pages of material. Nowhere did I see evidence of the information that you cited. Can you be a little more specific? Like a page number.

Oh, okay, I didn't see that. However, if you're arguing that Planned Parenthood spends money on abortion, they don't.

[Seani]

You're not paying for anyone's abortions. People pay for their own abortions. They cost money. The person who needs an abortion pays for it. That said...viagra is on taxpayer money...

- - - Updated - - -



Page 17. Pretty hard to miss dude.

We pay for the facility that provides for the abortion. 3% of all visits are abortion related, which means out of 100 visits 3 of those will be consultation or surgery related to the abortion of a child. I had originally thought you were referring to the funding or allocation of PP resources, but this number actually doesn't seem small at all.

Mentioning Viagra is funny to me, because it usually (not in all cased) used to treat men with ED, which is never something that you would consider to be provided to men for free.

[therealbowser]

As a man, I feel that it's none of my business, even if I was the guy who got her pregnant.

Between fertilization and birth, I have only the input that the woman chooses to let me have, and that's how it should be.

And there's no "child to be accounted for" until birth. The 5 month thing is a generous compromise. Frankly, as a man, it's an issue about which I give zero shts at all. Except when people try to use religion (or w/e other reason they come up with) to restrict a woman's rights to control her own body.

Let me tell you, if a woman wants an abortion, there are many ways to induce it naturally, and there will be providers willing to skirt the law. We don't want to go back to that.

If it was my child, and a woman was holding it hostage over me... yeah, I would care. Extreme case, but that's kind of the point; that they can and do exist. However, this is unrealistic and I don't plan on having any children any time soon, possibly ever for that matter.

The point I am making is that life is precious, and with all the birth control methods available, it's disgusting how common a practice abortion is. But like I said, we don't live in a utopia, and the alternative is far, far worse on a number of levels. It's a necessary evil.

I cannot, however, say that the woman is the only important factor. While she is the most important factor, and it is her body, the fetish is a life and will be a child if allowed to exist, and most people would prefer to be allowed to exist I would imagine. Likewise, the father shouldn't be totally ignored as completely inconsequential if he genuinely cares about the child and has the means to support it. But if the alternative is a lot of women suffering, crime rate and poverty increasing, it simply isn't worth it.

I don't think we'll ever live in a world where abortion doesn't have a purpose, but at the very least I wish people wouldn't use it carelessly when there are ways to prevent conception fairly effectively to begin with. Sadly there isn't really any way to change this, except by changing society itself, and I certainly can't do that.

PS: And my comment on 5 months specifically is because of the procedure. Suction or pill induced is acceptable, but beyond that I'd have to comment on a case by case basis. The cutoff for these is around 4 months from my admittedly limited knowledge, after which other methods are necessary. And anything during the third trimester tends to be barbaric... the only reason to abort a child at that point would be something like a terrible defect or serious danger to the mother.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I don't think that's true at all, and I would challenge you to provide evidence.

I saw this post, figured I knew exactly how this situation was going to turn out and yep, checking subsequent posts, evidence was provided and you denied it existed. When it was blatantly shoved at you to where you couldn't ignore it, you launched into semantics.

That's the thing about people on the pro-life side (and many other issues), what they think overrides everything, even fact.

[GennGreymane]

I don't think anyone picked up on your analogy but you. Slavery has nothing to do with this conversation.

Neither does someone who is long dead. Your argument is not very good.

[Seani]

I saw this post, figured I knew exactly how this situation was going to turn out and yep, checking subsequent posts, evidence was provided and you denied it existed. When it was blatantly shoved at you to where you couldn't ignore it, you launched into semantics.

That's the thing about people on the pro-life side (and many other issues), what they think overrides everything, even fact.

What other posts exactly are you referring to? Having 3% of visits to Planned Parenthood be abortion related is not a small number at all, and hardly provides the point that tax dollars don't provide for abortion services. That was the original point of the statistic in the first place. Arguing Semantics is what you're doing.

- - - Updated - - -

Neither does someone who is long dead. Your argument is not very good.

If my argument isn't very good it's because this thread doesn't have a clear argument, only the implication that Pro-Choice principles are good.

[GennGreymane]

What other posts exactly are you referring to? Having 3% of visits to Planned Parenthood be abortion related is not a small number at all, and hardly provides the point that tax dollars don't provide for abortion services.

- - - Updated - - -



If my argument isn't very good it's because this thread doesn't have a clear argument, only the implication that Pro-Choice principles are good.

So you have no argument, throw your hands in the air, and claim your principles are good. Thats one of the more creative excuses for not making a good argument I have seen.

[Seani]

So you have no argument, throw your hands in the air, and claim your principles are good. Thats one of the more creative excuses for not making a good argument I have seen.

My arguments are logical, whether they are good or not is subjective. I am not arguing morality here, I am arguing the presumption of pro-choice being moral. You presume to ask other people for resources to support a pro-choice lifestyle.

[Masark]

provides the point that tax dollars don't provide for abortion services.

Hyde amendment. Google it and stop littering this thread with your ignorance.

[-aiko-]

You know what else can bring beauty from ashes? My taser to his old stupid face.

[GennGreymane]

My arguments are logical, whether they are good or not is subjective.

Not sure how referring to some dead woman as the only argument you have is logical but sure, what ever makes you happy.