I need to understand Cataclysm hate with rational argumentation

[Eazy]

Dragon Soul raid, it's just wrong. Even the patch cinematic was bad af.

[shrunken]

Just going by what I heard, dude. All I remember is bitching about it and Ragnaros' tiny legs.

So the guy skipped leg day... his biceps were the size of monster trucks.

[PetersenIV]

Good stuff:
-> Redid the entire old world content yet still had more new expansion content than either Pandaland, TimeTravelland and World of Illidanland
-> LFR system that allowed newbie raiders to see content and get some shit gear in the process
-> Rated BGs
-> Excellent dungeons and quests dripping with lore, filled with Warcraft characters we wanted to see
-> Updated all the old world lore and environments to make sense with new events, and didn't cut any corners
-> Updated graphics very heavily with water, shadows and lighting
-> Flying in Azeroth
-> Shared gathering nodes
-> New races

There's good and bad both about them having redone the entire old world (wasn't Cata where they started screwing with vanilla dungeons, too? No bueno.

They put a *lot* of work into Cataclysm. Probably more work than they've put into any other expansion, but a lot of that work went either unseen (by people who already had level 80s of every class or at least the classes they wanted to play) or somewhat unappreciated by people (like me) who resented losing all the old content. I appreciate the magnitude of the herculean task they accomplished in re-making the world, but I don't appreciate losing all that memorable content that I 'grew-up with' as it were.

Cata does get a lot of what I see as undeserved hate (then again, so does "pandaland"), and I, too, am not really sure why. The Molten Front was my favorite max-level quest-hub area place thing. Firelands (aside from being yet another overwhelmingly red/orange eyesore) was a pretty fun raid. I realize we had a long wait with a frustratingly tedious raid (Dragon Soul, mostly the last two fights), but WotLK wasn't much better in terms of wait (thought the final dungeon was waaaaaaaaaay cooler, IMHO). Meh. People. And opinions. And stuff.

[Triceratrozer]

So the guy skipped leg day... his biceps were the size of monster trucks.

But that's all I remember about Firelands! The dailies and people bitching about his tiny legs!

[Deathquoi]

I'll tell you why I hated it.

1) The old world needed a revamp, but I would have preferred they not completely rip it apart. Thousand Needles was a great zone that's now under water. They messed up a lot of zones, when all we really needed was a new questing experience.

2) The beginning raids had theming, pacing, they were really good. They were also horribly tuned for 10 man groups and demanded a ranged-heavy comp. As a DK main, this was insanely frustrating and caused me to quit.

3) Dragon Soul is the worst raid ever. The fights aren't horrible for the most part, but it's so anticlimactic. The environments are, in order, a reused zone, two identical reused Old God stomachs, back to the reused zone, then to a reused raid to fight an orc, then to Skybreaker to fight a tauren, and then you fight Deathwing, once in a pretty cool fight, and then for the second time with fuckin wacky spaghetti arms. The only new models in the entire raid were Deathwing's. It just felt so lazy, especially compared to the end raids of basically every other expansion. I mean, you had Black Temple/Sunwell and ICC, then this mess, and then Siege of Orgrimmar (which, despite how old and boring it eventually got, was fucking excellent) and HFC (which was pretty damn good, even if the rest of WoD was fairly meh).

4) Vash'jir is the worst zone that has ever existed in WoW, and I'm including Vanilla Azshara, Silithus and Desolace.

[Deleted]

Theres a problem where the people who demand leveling revamps also happen to hate leveling. So for example in cata, they revamped the leveling content and made it super easy. This people who LIKE leveling felt it was horrible because it trivialized it. The people who HATE leveling felt it was horrible because it still existed. So its an example where they tried to please everyone and instead pleased no one.

Hellfire peninsula has the same issue. The people who hate leveling thru hellfire peninsula hate to level for the most part. If you LIKE leveling its a really fun zone. If they listened to the people who want it "fixed" they would actually ruin it.

Cata destroyed leveling.

Cata leveling is great in theory, the problem lies solely in heirlooms making you outgear questing zones before even getting there and turning them grey halfway through. Vanilla leveling wasn't any harder safe for that. It was just a lot more simple and samey. You can say still having all 1-60 lvling content revolve around Cata storylines is bad when there is no payoff, but from a pure gameplay standpoint cata improved leveling A LOT.

The worst thing about Cata is hands down LFR. It keeps people from experiencing the awesome world of raiding. If your first contact with raiding is an on rail borefest I would not blame you to stop pursuing that altogether.

[Deathquoi]

wasn't Cata where they started screwing with vanilla dungeons, too?

To be fair, I actually enjoyed the rework of Deadmines quite a bit.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Good stuff:
-> Redid the entire old world content yet still had more new expansion content than either Pandaland, TimeTravelland and World of Illidanland

That's just not true though. That's the thing that sucked about cata. There was very little new things added to the game. They spent all their time redoing the world, which was awesome, but ended up with two tiers that had less bosses than some other raid tiers.

-> LFR system that allowed newbie raiders to see content and get some shit gear in the process

This was a huge detractor from the expansion as well. LFR should have never been added. Its just not raiding and does nothing good for the game.

-> Rated BGs

Good addition for sure.

-> Excellent dungeons and quests dripping with lore, filled with Warcraft characters we wanted to see

Would you call that "rational argumentation?" That sounds like an opinion to me. Regardless, every expansion has excellent dungeons and quests that include lore. Cata was not my favorite otherwise.

-> Updated all the old world lore and environments to make sense with new events, and didn't cut any corners

Can't say if they cut corners or not, but they only did as good as the tech allows. The new tech in Legion is way better.

-> Updated graphics very heavily with water, shadows and lighting

Very good addition, but once again outdone by WoD and Legion.

-> Flying in Azeroth
-> Shared gathering nodes
-> New races

All very good additions.

Those things are not particularly impactful though in terms of the strength of an expansion. It was alright, but imo lackluster. The problem for me is many of the resources were spent on leveling content, something that was already near useless with the changes in Wrath.

If it wasn't for Firelands and Dragon Soul (and the lack of Abysal Maw) it could have been a good expansion. It got off to a great start, but the end was absolutely horrendous.

[Savonti]

Really not a fan of cataclysm here and I would be more than happy to explain why.

The largest issue for me comes down to that same updated world that you consider a pro. I really liked the idea of the world changing to reflect the passage of time but I think it was more a case of "be careful what you wish for". The tone was just off for many of these places. The pre-existing quests were just removed or dumbed down to the point that they didn't mean anything anymore. I think about quest chains like Darrowshire or the Tirion quest line as some of WoW quests people NEEDED to play. One of those is a memory in the minds of that, what 100 people who played WoW Classic that are still around. Darrowshore on the other hand is just a thing that takes 5, 10 minutes. it just gutted the whole thing. Beyond losing that history though we have to consider all of the changes in the world BECAUSE of the Cataclysm, we have zones with stupid floating crystals and other such nonsense that are a reflection of deathwing's attack. Not only does that lock the content in time but to have it be 1-60 and then 80-85 it further screws with the "timeline" of leveling. I appreciate what they were trying to do but in hindsight I really wish they hadn't.

Really that's my problem with cataclysm, I feel the old world revamp was a mistake. I also feel the writing wasn't that great, though I think it was much better than Pandaria (Feelings monsters? For godamned real?) and Draenor (an ode to missed opportunity).


As far as Dragon Soul I don't think it's fair to blame the length of a raid tier on that expansion. Those always take forever and should probably be taken as a given.

Also, I don't know what "Bullshit: -> Thrall" means because I feel like that's not enough information. If you mean his model in Cata I loved his new character model at the time. What do you think was bullshit about Thrall?

[Deleted]

I enjoyed Cataclysm a lot to be honest.

I loved the areas and the return to Azeroth concept (although I admit I got outburn after a while, but I usually come and go), Mount Hyjal and the Highlands specifically were amazing.
The whole Tol Barad experience was a blast for me, I like those kind of zones and the Worgen theme was so good.
I also enjoyed patch 4.3, especially the dungeons.
I eventually rerolled to a shaman to try out the updated areas and I loved both the zones and the gameplay.

I can understand people's hate, Cataclysm feels half baked; the graphics were strange (kind of updated, but not really shiny, more like a middle ground between old and new "wow era"), the talent trees were gutted - we were forced to complete a tree before spending some (useless) points to another one in an era when we were used to having the freedom to choose how to spend the talent points, Thrall was the main protagonist, the story regarding the Aspects could be better, Cataclysm was the expansion that introduced the abundance of portals, even Dragon Soul had mostly portals between the bosses - instead of being an imposing castle that we invade, like the recent Firelands and Icecrown Citadel.
And of course the last boss fight. It was a good idea and made Deathwing feel massive and threatening, the environment was awesome and very fitting, but the fight wasn't as satisfying and the boss area was completely disconnected from the whole raid.

That being said, I still have some of the fondest memories of my gaming experience from Cataclysm.

[Morbownz]

Cataclysm was the first expansion that didn't give us a new continent. It was Blizzard's first major overhaul for class talents. The old world was changed for a shinier and much more convenient leveling experience which destroyed the nostalgia/connection to the past for veteran players. I could go on, but basically I believe Cataclysm was the blueprint for a new type of WoW that would take years to develop and improve. It was the sacrificial lamb, the David Moyes, it was going to be hated because it was a step in a different direction, maybe even radical. I'd say it was necessary to WoW's survival and you could even say it was one of the most important expansions in WoW's history.

[Deleted]

but basically I believe Cataclysm was the blueprint for a new type of WoW that would take years to develop and improve. It was the sacrificial lamb, the David Moyes, it was going to be hated because it was a step in a different direction, maybe even radical. I'd say it was necessary to WoW's survival and you could even say it was one of the most important expansions in WoW's history.

I completely agree, Cataclysm feels like the stepping stone to that new era they've come today.

[Aggrophobic]

Good stuff:
-> Redid the entire old world content yet still had more new expansion content than either Pandaland, TimeTravelland and World of Illidanland
-> LFR system that allowed newbie raiders to see content and get some shit gear in the process
-> Rated BGs
-> Excellent dungeons and quests dripping with lore, filled with Warcraft characters we wanted to see
-> Updated all the old world lore and environments to make sense with new events, and didn't cut any corners
-> Updated graphics very heavily with water, shadows and lighting
-> Flying in Azeroth
-> Shared gathering nodes
-> New races

Not great
-> New world PVP zone
-> Cool new zone with Uldum, but shit story with that indiana jones copy paste bullshit. New race wasn't even voiced

Bullshit:
-> Thrall
-> Deathwing not having that much presence except randomly burning down patches of land in random zones
-> Long ass wait for the next shitty expansion (although no different from most end of expansions, you could unsub as always)
-> Azshara raid cut (although there was no lack of content)


---------------------------

I don't get it, how is pandaland or legion any better? They have more daily quests? Because as far as dungeons and raids are concerned, I'm pretty sure both have less. And last time I checked, pandaren and monks are both the least played race and class in the game, or constantly trading first place with gnomes and something else so.....yeah.

I've started playing since late pre-BC, winter before the AQ event. I've seen it all. Cataclysm was fucking phenomenal in many aspects, and not in my eyes worthy of the ranking it often gets classed in as "omg cacaclysm, /wrists".

Well, MoP was better in my opinion but Cata was not bad at all. The last tier was just not that amazing.
Legion is not better in any way though.

[Deathquoi]

Well, MoP was better in my opinion but Cata was not bad at all. The last tier was just not that amazing.
Legion is not better in any way though.

I think Legion is miles better than Cata. Different people have different opinions.

[Gharld]

Personally, Cata was one of my favorite expansions.

-While the new Cata zones "destroyed" many old zones and their atmosphere, I feel that the remade zones at least added a proper story to each zone (with a few fringe cases making the exception). The old zones were almost always "hey kill some zebras and random shit, then run out of quests and grind / move to another zone", especially when you hit the 40-50s. Then again I'm not a person that gets bothered by pop-culture references (aside from when they go overboard, parts of Uldum and Redridge comes to mind).

-Raiding overall was just solid, even DS which I'll touch on at the end. I'm very biased though since even though I've raided since BC, Cata was the first (and last now that I think of it) time I took part in successful "top tier" raiding, pushing heroic and the such.

-Tol' Barad was fun, not quite Wintergrasp, but at the start of the expac it was pretty damm fun. Fond memories of massive cheese when Have Group, Will Travel came out

-The actual Cata zones themselves, I will say suffered from being disconnected other than the theme of "oh noes, Deathwing and old god baddies". On their own though they were great. Also Vashj'ir stands as the best zone in WoW's history (for its time), come at me.

-Mother. Fuckin. Whiptail farmin.

-Unpopular Opinion: I actually liked Dragon Soul. Not from a lore perspective, that was kinda shit, not to mention boss models and such. But mechanically I though DS had some really solid fights as somebody who did heroic on all save for Spine / DW (which I know Spine Heroic was the cause of a lot of hate).

It really was a meh raid, which sucks for the "grand finale", but mechanically speaking, I felt it did quite good.


I would say that, maybe Cata wasnt the strongest expansion of the bunch, it being the first expansion without some big well known big bad (Illidan and Arthas being the prior) as well as the lands associated, but it doesnt deserve the hate it gets.

[l33t]

Well, I loved a lot of cataclysm, actually.
I loved dungeons at launch, I rarely play with pugs and for organised guild group the difficulty was just right. Never after I felt the same, since post-cata dungeons were dull easy and challenge modes (and current m+ mode) are a run against timer, which I don't enjoy as much as good old hard dungeon.
I loved t11 and Firelands, moreso being able to obtain a true Legendary (not the commoneers shit we have now) and rape meters with it.
I loved Vash'jir, it is my #2 favourite location in WoW, with #1 being TBC Nagrand.
Class balance was shit, but it is shit in every expansion. Class designs were good enough to not be bored to death playing the game (like we have now).
Loved Tol Barad, because I love mass pvp events like that.
Loved the flying in Azeroth, it was awesome and I miss not being able to fly @ lvlcap very, very much, it alone steals like 40% of my enjoyment of the game. No, pathfinder shit they've forced upon is is not a "compromise solution" for me.
Have Group, Will Travel - the Totally Best Addition To The Game Ever Added After Flying Was Implemented.
RBGs - nuff said.

What I really disliked in Cata was Dragon souls "raid", LFR injection and Thrall's "story" absurdity - didn't enjoyed watching a great Horde hero of Warcraft turning into whiny moany undecisive little bitch. Was it enough to hate Cataclysm? Not for me.

[Theoris]

This is a pretty trivial reason, but Cata brought a lot of bad music. Like the obnoxious trombone in Eastern Plaguelands (dun... dun... dun... DUUUUUUUUUUUUN!!!!!) stuck on repeat.

[NorthWay]

The Firelands daily quest hub was a horrible place.
The cut-down Vanilla dungeons were an abomination.
The new old world was just tragic. There is no path across to Tanaris unless you have done the boat Q! Too much phasing and Qs and FPs that only open up in a linear fashion.
Underwater level - 3D positioning just doesn't work in WoW (at best you can limp along if you are ranged).

But it did add QoL touches: More mailboxes. More graveyards. More flightpaths. More correct Vanilla quest reward gear (they could have done that for the old Qs instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater). Flying in Vanilla (which I liked for the longest time, but it was probably not good for the game as a whole).

IMO.

[Deathquoi]

Personally, Cata was one of my favorite expansions.

-While the new Cata zones "destroyed" many old zones and their atmosphere, I feel that the remade zones at least added a proper story to each zone (with a few fringe cases making the exception). The old zones were almost always "hey kill some zebras and random shit, then run out of quests and grind / move to another zone", especially when you hit the 40-50s. Then again I'm not a person that gets bothered by pop-culture references (aside from when they go overboard, parts of Uldum and Redridge comes to mind).

-Raiding overall was just solid, even DS which I'll touch on at the end. I'm very biased though since even though I've raided since BC, Cata was the first (and last now that I think of it) time I took part in successful "top tier" raiding, pushing heroic and the such.

-Tol' Barad was fun, not quite Wintergrasp, but at the start of the expac it was pretty damm fun. Fond memories of massive cheese when Have Group, Will Travel came out

-The actual Cata zones themselves, I will say suffered from being disconnected other than the theme of "oh noes, Deathwing and old god baddies". On their own though they were great. Also Vashj'ir stands as the best zone in WoW's history (for its time), come at me.

-Mother. Fuckin. Whiptail farmin.

-Unpopular Opinion: I actually liked Dragon Soul. Not from a lore perspective, that was kinda shit, not to mention boss models and such. But mechanically I though DS had some really solid fights as somebody who did heroic on all save for Spine / DW (which I know Spine Heroic was the cause of a lot of hate).

It really was a meh raid, which sucks for the "grand finale", but mechanically speaking, I felt it did quite good.


I would say that, maybe Cata wasnt the strongest expansion of the bunch, it being the first expansion without some big well known big bad (Illidan and Arthas being the prior) as well as the lands associated, but it doesnt deserve the hate it gets.

Fuck is all this?

[l33t]

Fuck is all this?

Those are words, people use those to express thoughts to other people.