Should the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from U.S. schools?

[Coffeh]

People are so clueless what 'separation of church and state' means. Here's what it means: the government can't tell you what religion to practice. That's it. You're free to choose whichever religion you want. That's what it means. There is nothing unconstitutional saying a prayer in school, or a statue of the ten commandments outside a courtroom.

But living in our extremely childish, immature society where people have to remove anything and everything that someone might find offensive, people have lost sight of that. If people actually acted like adults they'd just not partake in things they don't believe. But people are children.

[Ghostpanther]

I have no issues with it staying as is. People get offended too much now days for the smallest things. No one can make you recite it. As no one can make you believe in a god. No one can make you patriotic. The Constitution assures that. But it works the other way also. In schools there is a parent/teacher conference. If the majority of those want it. So be it. Let those who want to recite it, do it. Let those who do not want to, not do it. Pretty simple folks. :P

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No, but the "under god" in the pledge is a direct reference to the christian god.

Not necessarily. The Founding Fathers pretty much as a whole believed in a Supreme Creator. But some where certainly not Christians.

[Masark]

People are so clueless what 'separation of church and state' means. Here's what it means: the government can't tell you what religion to practice. That's it.

You ought to inform your courts of that revelation. As they've written quite a lot on the subject and they have much different ideas than you do.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Not necessarily. The Founding Fathers pretty much as a whole believed in a Supreme Creator. But some where certainly not Christians.

Given that the "under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954, I'm not sure how that's relevant.

[Dieseldadruid]

As an atheistic high school student let me rebut some of your points.

1.Most students don't even say the pledge its usually no one but some teachers and a scattered bunch of students, usually those who plan to join the military.

2.Who really cares, as stated above i'm atheist and I don't get triggered by this kind of thing. If you don't like that part skip it, no one will care.

3.The pledge is statement that reflects the ideals and goals that America is meant to pursue, are you arguing that the pursuit of freedom and justice for all citizens is an undesirable goal?

4.This point isn't worth acknowledging, just one more reactionary making false mirrors to fascist ideology.

5.The time lost is minimal, by this argument school announcements should be fazed out in favor of a out of school email system and students should be expelled for tardiness.

[Rudkobing]

142 posts....

Hmmmmm....

/melds back into the shadows

[Ghostpanther]

Given that the "under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954, I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Yeah, but it has been on money longer than that. And the Declaration of Independence even mentions a Creator.

[Masark]

Not necessarily. The Founding Fathers pretty much as a whole believed in a Supreme Creator. But some where certainly not Christians.

What does that have to do with anything? The founders were long dead by the time the pledge was written.

[Templar 331]

Okay, but the US are not the nazis. I don't see why you keep making this connection, it's irrelevant.

We are not, thankfully, but in order to keep us from going down that path we need to ensure criticism of this country is never stifled. Slogans like "if you don't love this country then get out!!!" are used to silence dissenters. I've heard it used many times when the topic of protests arises.

Patriotism pushed to the extreme, nationalism, is a dangerous thing. One step in stopping that is to not allow forced patriotism in the first place. Forcing children to "pledge their allegiance" is one form of forced patriotism that needs to end.

[Deleted]

We are not, thankfully, but in order to keep us from going down that path we need to ensure criticism of this country is never stifled. Slogans like "if you don't love this country then get out!!!" are used to silence dissenters. I've heard it used many times when the topic of protests arises.

Patriotism pushed to the extreme, nationalism, is a dangerous thing. One step in stopping that is to not allow forced patriotism in the first place. Forcing children to "pledge their allegiance" is one form of forced patriotism that needs to end.

I just gave you an example where loyalty and patriotism was vital to the victory OVER the nazis. Obviously it can go in any damn direction, so harkening back to one group of people being evil in history is irrelevant to the tenents of civic duty, loyalty and patriotism in 2017.

[Ghostpanther]

What does that have to do with anything? The founders were long dead by the time the pledge was written.

The point was, that the reference to God in the pledge is a specific reference to Christians is a false assumption. Same for "In God we Trust" on money. It is not a reference to a specific God, but a testimony of the belief in a God.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Yeah, but it has been on money longer than that. And the Declaration of Independence even mentions a Creator.

I'm not disputing that, but we were talking specifically about its addition to the Pledge, and that is put in as a reference to the Christian God specifically. Given that the final push to get the Pledge officially amended with "under God" came from a Presbyterian minister in 1950's America, that's a tough assertion to dispute.

Also, an excerpt from Eisenhower's speech during the ratification:

From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty

What other religions to you believe are meant to be included with "the Almighty"?

[Ghostpanther]

I'm not disputing that, but we were talking specifically about its addition to the Pledge, and that is put in as a reference to the Christian God specifically. Given that the final push to get the Pledge officially amended with "under God" came from a Presbyterian minister in 1950's America, that's a tough assertion to dispute.

Also, an excerpt from Eisenhower's speech during the ratification:


What other religions to you believe are meant to be included with "the Almighty"?

The Almighty is a term not inclusive to Christianity. But reference to a one God. The Jews and Muslims also believe that. But man this thread will close fast if we get into religion. I just wanted to object to the term God in the Pledge as a Christian specifically one. So we can not get into a religious discussion. Sorry.

[Templar 331]

I just gave you an example where loyalty and patriotism was vital to the victory OVER the nazis. Obviously it can go in any damn direction, so harkening back to one group of people being evil in history is irrelevant to the tenents of civic duty, loyalty and patriotism in 2017.

Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.

And you didn't prove patriotism was vital in the defeat of the Nazis in your example of the Red Army. In fact, with your own example we can see how patriotism can be used for evil with Stalin's "Great Purge."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Red-Army

[Enthusiastic Steward]

The Almighty is a term not inclusive to Christianity. But reference to a one God. The Jews and Muslims also believe that. But man this thread will close fast if we get into religion. I just wanted to object to the term God in the Pledge as a Christian specifically one. So we can not get into a religious discussion. Sorry.

Well the Jewish and Muslim God is the same God as Christianity, so by referring to one it is by default referring to the others.

We don't have to have a theological discussion about that.

But what I am arguing is that a push in 1950s America by organizations such as the Knights of Columbus and proposed to Eisenhower by a Presbyterian minister to include "under God" in the Pledge, its a hard sell to argue that they were referring to a deity other than the Christian (Abrahamic, if you want to avoid that debate) God.

[Ghostpanther]

Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.

And you didn't prove patriotism was vital in the defeat of the Nazis in your example of the Red Army. In fact, with your own example we can see how patriotism can be used for evil with Stalin's "Great Purge."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Red-Army

Absolutely. You can be patriotically evil.

[xenogear3]

Why?????

It is super useful when Trump leads US to WW3 and rules the world.

[Felnoire]

Wait, you pledge allegiance to the flag in school? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Now if only april fools happened on a school day, cause it would be interesting to get the flag to start issuing orders to a class who has just pledged allegiance to it.. "Go home, school is cancelled. So say the flag!" No questioning why the second thought beyond finding it odd is to want to prank it... it just happens.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I have it fresh in memory when someone had cut together footage from inside an Iraqi or Afghan classroom where the kids were reciting such gems as "death to America" and shit. Fade to black, and a text saying "Isn't that fanatism at work?". Then they cut in a shot from a US school where kids pledged their allegiance.

... On second thought, I ain't googling these search words to try and find the clip.

As for being removed; Why not? Does it serve any true purpose? Do the kids really believe the words they recite? Whom does it serve?

[Ghostpanther]

Wait, you pledge allegiance to the flag in school? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Now if only april fools happened on a school day, cause it would be interesting to get the flag to start issuing orders to a class who has just pledged allegiance to it.. "Go home, school is cancelled. So say the flag!" No questioning why the second thought beyond finding it odd is to want to prank it... it just happens.

Hehe. They are pledging allegiance to what the flag represents. The flag is a symbol. Get it? lol!