Poll: Should the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from schools?

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  1. #181
    Americans used to do the salute too.


  2. #182
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    I have it fresh in memory when someone had cut together footage from inside an Iraqi or Afghan classroom where the kids were reciting such gems as "death to America" and shit. Fade to black, and a text saying "Isn't that fanatism at work?". Then they cut in a shot from a US school where kids pledged their allegiance.

    ... On second thought, I ain't googling these search words to try and find the clip.

    As for being removed; Why not? Does it serve any true purpose? Do the kids really believe the words they recite? Whom does it serve?
    For some. Some do. Whomever believes in the pledge's principles.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.

    And you didn't prove patriotism was vital in the defeat of the Nazis in your example of the Red Army. In fact, with your own example we can see how patriotism can be used for evil with Stalin's "Great Purge."

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Red-Army
    Okay, 'can be used for evil' I never said it couldn't. And ofcourse you can and should look at history and learn from their examples, however the situation in the US (or anywhere for that matter) does not mirror the situation in the Nazi reich or the USSR.

    So it's more or less irrelevant, you can't tell me that being loyal to YOUR country is a negative thing, because that means you are arguing that disloyalty is a positive thing, but I am assuming you are someone who likes the notion of a nation state and is not an anarchist.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Felnoire View Post
    Wait, you pledge allegiance to the flag in school? Daily? Weekly? Monthly?
    It varies widely across the US.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul - Thrall View Post
    Americans used to do the salute too.

    So you are saying americans are nazis?

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    For some. Some do. Whomever believes in the pledge's principles.
    Seems to me then that those kids would do it at home if they cared that much. The truth is nobody actually pledges allegiance to a flag outside of school. Nobody fucking wakes up and starts pledging to a flag unless they're insane or they have entirely too much time on their hands.

    That shit has no place in schools, it's creepy to make a bunch of kids recite a pledge and it serves no purpose.

    Luckily you actually can't be required to do it, me and most of my friends just sat through it. Waste of time and energy.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Souls View Post
    For those who aren't familiar with it, the Pledge of Allegiance reads as follows:




    Students in U.S. schools stand up and recite this together at the beginning of each school day. It is usually followed by a moment of silence.

    Here are my arguments for why it should be removed:

    1. Although students cannot be officially punished by the school (as far as I know) for refusing to stand and say it, the social pressures to say it are enormous. A student who refuses to say it risks being seen as unpatriotic or even hating their country. They may be ostracized or bullied by their peers, or even receive a lower grade than they deserve by a teacher who doesn't like their stance.

    2. The fact that the pledge includes the phrase "under God" is discriminatory against atheist and agnostic students, as well as students who are of a polytheistic religion.

    3. Every other pledge I've heard of, you say it once and that's it. What the hell kind of pledge do you have to say every day? Having to say the same thing over and over again causes it to lose meaning. Also, "with liberty and justice for all"? Does anyone really buy that bullshit?

    4. It smacks of something the Hitler Youth would have done.

    5. It is a waste of instructional time. The Pledge and moment of silence take about 30 seconds each day. Multiply that by 180 school days, and that's one and a half hours every year that could be spent learning.
    1. It shouldn't be graded if you recite it or not. It is important to love ones country. If you don't then why do you live wherever you are?

    2. It's not discriminatory. Even judges agree with the stance and why "under god" has remained in the pledge of allegiance.

    3. Having the freedoms you do in this country should be your reason to recite the pledge 100 million times and on your own. You don't seem to appreciate what you have, have never lived in another country or you aren't american? It's one of those reasons you'd start a thread like this.

    4. So you are saying americans are nazis now? Wow that's original. Why do you hate america so much?

    5. Well that's like just your opinion. You could also learn outside of class time also. Why does all of your education have to come during class time?

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Souls View Post
    For those who aren't familiar with it, the Pledge of Allegiance reads as follows:




    Students in U.S. schools stand up and recite this together at the beginning of each school day. It is usually followed by a moment of silence.

    Here are my arguments for why it should be removed:

    1. Although students cannot be officially punished by the school (as far as I know) for refusing to stand and say it, the social pressures to say it are enormous. A student who refuses to say it risks being seen as unpatriotic or even hating their country. They may be ostracized or bullied by their peers, or even receive a lower grade than they deserve by a teacher who doesn't like their stance.

    2. The fact that the pledge includes the phrase "under God" is discriminatory against atheist and agnostic students, as well as students who are of a polytheistic religion.

    3. Every other pledge I've heard of, you say it once and that's it. What the hell kind of pledge do you have to say every day? Having to say the same thing over and over again causes it to lose meaning. Also, "with liberty and justice for all"? Does anyone really buy that bullshit?

    4. It smacks of something the Hitler Youth would have done.

    5. It is a waste of instructional time. The Pledge and moment of silence take about 30 seconds each day. Multiply that by 180 school days, and that's one and a half hours every year that could be spent learning.
    Getting tired of all this political correctness. I don't care if you are offended by the "under God" portion. As far as I am concerned, tough.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by supermage View Post
    Getting tired of all this political correctness. I don't care if you are offended by the "under God" portion. As far as I am concerned, tough.
    Considering not everyone believes in your mythical creature, it isn't political correctness, it is freedom of and from religion.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Considering not everyone believes in your mythical creature, it isn't political correctness, it is freedom of and from religion.
    Tough. Good luck getting it removed.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by supermage View Post
    Tough. Good luck getting it removed.
    I didn't say it needs to be removed. It will not, however, be forced to be said like you alt-reichers want.

  12. #192
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
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    I graduated high school in 2012, but I remember especially in the last couple years a lot of students wouldn't say the pledge. There was even a problem with students standing for it, and they did a spiel on the morning announcements about how it was important. I just think that patriotism and American exceptionalism are highly criticized topics among millenials and gen y, so saying the pledge doesn't always reflect their true thoughts or perception of America. I personally agree with this, I think that the pledge was both superfluous and hard to stand behind.

  13. #193
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    I didn't say it needs to be removed. It will not, however, be forced to be said like you alt-reichers want.
    I always left that part out when I was in school. Noone ever noticed. I heard someone else in this thread mention getting suspended for refusing to say it. I will not ever say it no matter what the "consequences" are.
    Last edited by Stormspark; 2017-03-26 at 12:12 PM.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    I didn't say it needs to be removed. It will not, however, be forced to be said like you alt-reichers want.
    Many schools stopped making it mandatory decades ago. I don't remember the last time I was forced to say it. It had to have been in elementary school back in the early 80's to early 90's. I never once recited it in high school from 92 to 96.

  15. #195
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Seems to me then that those kids would do it at home if they cared that much. The truth is nobody actually pledges allegiance to a flag outside of school. Nobody fucking wakes up and starts pledging to a flag unless they're insane or they have entirely too much time on their hands.

    That shit has no place in schools, it's creepy to make a bunch of kids recite a pledge and it serves no purpose.

    Luckily you actually can't be required to do it, me and most of my friends just sat through it. Waste of time and energy.
    How do you know that? Personal experience does not mean it is true with everyone. Like you said, you are not forced to do it. So do not try to get it removed for those who want to do it.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Souls View Post
    For those who aren't familiar with it, the Pledge of Allegiance reads as follows:




    Students in U.S. schools stand up and recite this together at the beginning of each school day. It is usually followed by a moment of silence.

    Here are my arguments for why it should be removed:

    1. Although students cannot be officially punished by the school (as far as I know) for refusing to stand and say it, the social pressures to say it are enormous. A student who refuses to say it risks being seen as unpatriotic or even hating their country. They may be ostracized or bullied by their peers, or even receive a lower grade than they deserve by a teacher who doesn't like their stance.

    2. The fact that the pledge includes the phrase "under God" is discriminatory against atheist and agnostic students, as well as students who are of a polytheistic religion.

    3. Every other pledge I've heard of, you say it once and that's it. What the hell kind of pledge do you have to say every day? Having to say the same thing over and over again causes it to lose meaning. Also, "with liberty and justice for all"? Does anyone really buy that bullshit?

    4. It smacks of something the Hitler Youth would have done.

    5. It is a waste of instructional time. The Pledge and moment of silence take about 30 seconds each day. Multiply that by 180 school days, and that's one and a half hours every year that could be spent learning.
    2. it wasn't included in the original pledge.

    It's optional by the way, you don't have to recite that pledge, there are precedents, they can't force you to do it :-).
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  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    How do you know that? Personal experience does not mean it is true with everyone. Like you said, you are not forced to do it. So do not try to get it removed for those who want to do it.
    Because it would be fucking insane to stand there by yourself pledging to a flag, anyone doing that should be sectioned.

    Also why have it at all and waste time? People who want to do it can do it without it being a school wide thing, do it at home, it's America every house has a flag on it for some unknown reason. They just hand them out with the purchase I guess. Except nobody would do it at home if they weren't told to ahead of time, because again, it'd be insane.

  18. #198
    The most anyone can really compel is that you stand for it -- and simply being a civilized member in a human social setting is all that one would need to do that, the way you stand when a judge enters the court even if you think he might be a POS that's about to put a friend in jail or rule against your contract dispute; the way you might when the leader of a foreign nation enters a diplomatic function even if you care nothing for him or his country; the way you stand at a major sporting event for the national anthem even if you are going to keep looking at your phone.

  19. #199
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Because it would be fucking insane to stand there by yourself pledging to a flag, anyone doing that should be sectioned.

    Also why have it at all and waste time? People who want to do it can do it without it being a school wide thing, do it at home, it's America every house has a flag on it for some unknown reason. They just hand them out with the purchase I guess. Except nobody would do it at home if they weren't told to ahead of time, because again, it'd be insane.
    The point was made that no one outside of school recites it. That is not true. It is recited in many other places and by students still in school. And your attitude is far worse than standing to make a pledge to the flag. :P Learn to be a little more tolerate of those who may disagree with you.

  20. #200
    The Lightbringer
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    When I went to school no one really did the pledge.

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