Appalling double standards over here :(

[Acidbaron]

So, when every single nation refused to take in hordes of refugees, your answer is... what? What should the people have done?

And yes, not all actions of Israel were just, there were acts of terrorism, illegal weapons, torture, etc. I'd like to find any country that has never done anything internationally illegal, really. That is a separate subject, it has nothing to do with the right of Israel to exist.

I've never hinted you were antisemite. I just think that in this matter scoring politically and stroking your personal biases is more important for you than human lives.

As i said i find the mistake to be both the creation of Israel and us rejecting them, we should have dealt with the immigration. I find our decision making regards the middle east short sighted and selfish.

I think you're smarter than saying that because others did it, it's justifiable to some level for Israel to do it. I also think that no other nation would get away with using DIME's in a highly civilian populated area to "control" the situation to name one of the illegal weapons used.

You are probably unaware of this but i have said this before on this forum, i'm in support of a two state solution and i'm happy that palenstinians are getting more representation in the Israeli politics as i find that to be the way forward, not with weapons and rockets but with talks, so you got me completely wrong in thinking i rank human lives that low.

[Mehrunes]

Also not bother anyone who doesn't bother them? I hope you mean in terms of military actions and even there it's questionable to see what force is used including the type of weapons also. Weapons that are forbidden and highly frowned upon by the international community, Weapons other nations would have to go to the haque to, to justify using them and where those in command would probably be facing jail time.

Hey, white phosphorus munitions are totally kosher and that's all that matters.

[Spicymemer]

If culture and religion are to blame, why do people from cities in those nations are a whole lot more modern and don't have those issues there? Or why do you think Erdogan and consorts is trying to recruit people to vote for him in nations abroad? Because he can't sell his scheme to majority of the nation who is more educated.

Im talking about London.

[Acidbaron]

Im talking about London.

Similar reasons apply there, it's how immigration was dealt with. Culture and religion are easy scapegoats propelled forward by the far right to mobilize people behind them for electoral reasons. Their lower education plays a far greater role in this.

[Mehrunes]

So, when every single nation refused to take in hordes of refugees, your answer is... what? What should the people have done?

There's nothing about refugee status that translates into formation of new countries. It's rather contrary to this notion actually, with obligation to return to your country once the threat is over.

And yes, not all actions of Israel were just, there were acts of terrorism, illegal weapons, torture, etc. I'd like to find any country that has never done anything internationally illegal, really. That is a separate subject, it has nothing to do with the right of Israel to exist.

The thing with Israel is not that they are committing acts that are illegal under international law, but that they seem to aspire for western world championship. While pretending to be a paragon of justice, screeching antisemitism at people pointing out the illegality of their actions (because there's an = sign between Israeli government and Jews apparently) and pulling some fringe lunatics, weirdly all from Israel, that are supposed to be some legal authority surpassing things like ICJ because reasons, who say that what Israel does is actually totes legit legal.

[May90]

As i said i find the mistake to be both the creation of Israel and us rejecting them, we should have dealt with the immigration. I find our decision making regards the middle east short sighted and selfish.

I think you're smarter than saying that because others did it, it's justifiable to some level for Israel to do it. I also think that no other nation would get away with using DIME's in a highly civilian populated area to "control" the situation to name one of the illegal weapons used.

You are probably unaware of this but i have said this before on this forum, i'm in support of a two state solution and i'm happy that palenstinians are getting more representation in the Israeli politics as i find that to be the way forward, not with weapons and rockets but with talks, so you got me completely wrong in thinking i rank human lives that low.

I understand that, and I myself also think that accepting the refugees in Western countries would be a better decision. But I'm looking at the perspective of the Jews: given that the West has rejected them and offered them a choice, go to Israel and build your own nation, or to hell with you - what should they have done, if not this?

Israeli people were cornered from the start. I may not support many actions Israeli have taken over the decades, or some actions they take nowadays - but when you get treated like they did, you pretty much have to be harsh in defense of your interests to avoid losing everything. Much like at school: if you are being bullied constantly, sometimes you have to kick a few asses to let people know that you won't tolerate being beaten up like this. You may criticize the Munich Massacre response, it was illegal on many levels, and in actuality it was just a state-sanctioned mass murder - but you have to admit, since then the terrorist attacks on Israeli of such scale stopped, because Israel made it clear that the murder of its people will always be followed by much meaner actions.

If the international community wants Israel to play by the rules and to treat Palestine well, maybe, for starters, they should force Palestine to stop endless rocket bombings, harboring the vilest terrorist organizations on this planet, brainwashing kids at schools by telling them that the best thing they can do in their life is to commit a suicide attack against Jews? Or they can keep their hands dry, leave Israel to be eaten by wolves, and when Israel is forced to go ahead and to shoot a few packs down to stop the endless terrorist attacks - suddenly wake up: "Baaaaaad, baaaaaad Israel!"

[Acidbaron]

I understand that, and I myself also think that accepting the refugees in Western countries would be a better decision. But I'm looking at the perspective of the Jews: given that the West has rejected them and offered them a choice, go to Israel and build your own nation, or to hell with you - what should they have done, if not this?

Israeli people were cornered from the start. I may not support many actions Israeli have taken over the decades, or some actions they take nowadays - but when you get treated like they did, you pretty much have to be harsh in defense of your interests to avoid losing everything. Much like at school: if you are being bullied constantly, sometimes you have to kick a few asses to let people know that you won't tolerate being beaten up like this. You may criticize the Munich Massacre response, it was illegal on many levels, and in actuality it was just a state-sanctioned mass murder - but you have to admit, since then the terrorist attacks on Israeli of such scale stopped, because Israel made it clear that the murder of its people will always be followed by much meaner actions.

If the international community wants Israel to play by the rules and to treat Palestine well, maybe, for starters, they should force Palestine to stop endless rocket bombings, harboring the vilest terrorist organizations on this planet, brainwashing kids at schools by telling them that the best thing they can do in their life is to commit a suicide attack against Jews? Or they can keep their hands dry, leave Israel to be eaten by wolves, and when Israel is forced to go ahead and to shoot a few packs down to stop the endless terrorist attacks - suddenly wake up: "Baaaaaad, baaaaaad Israel!"

With the risk of repeating myself that's why i said both the creation and us rejecting them was a mistake and not merely the creation of.

Are you not aware that the west who tries to play a middle man in the talks condemns such actions from hamas? The criticism isn't that single sided far from.
As regards to propaganda that also takes place on both ends.
Both are responsible for the talks to be stopped. Israel does plenty of provocations what they know would blow up the talks. Even so much that i question the intend of the current people in power, i'm almost confident they are happy with the current situation.

And my problem with Israel is this as Mehrunes has pointed out, they claim to be the moral superior side in this conflict but they aren't in reality and when you make such claims it is not at all surprising that the west openly disagrees with that stance. Also shoot down a few terrorists, i think we both know it goes way beyond that considering the force they use. You really believe it would be better if we simply ignored all that took place there and not report on it at all or comment on it?

I think groups like ISIS would love to see that happen, more fuel for their fire.

[Spicymemer]

Similar reasons apply there, it's how immigration was dealt with. Culture and religion are easy scapegoats propelled forward by the far right to mobilize people behind them for electoral reasons. Their lower education plays a far greater role in this.

I believe its because of cultural and religious reasons that these things occur.

I vote for a center left party in a 2 party trending democracy.

I believe in economic conservatism and liberal social policies, trade protectionism from poorer nations, universal healthcare, paid tuition to higher learning.

Immigration should be heavily regulated, mostly to young or single parent families, I would design public housing to be spread out so that they cant foster negative cultural values in ghetto communities.

I was a product of intergenerational welfare, i dont commit cultural atrocities, i dont spray tags on buildings, i dont abuse people, i dont force my beliefs on others, ive never taken illicit substances, i dont smoke and i rarely drink, i dont suffer depression or resentment and neither do consider my mental state to be compromised, i dont believe in any religion or spirituality, my education until 3 years ago was high school only, my first full time employment came under a government subsidy from a welfare program.

My skin colour didnt help me at any stage, infact it hindered me because more was expected of me and i had less access to programs for disadvantaged people because i wasn't ethnic or disabled.

Ethnic people suffer not because a marginal percentage of the population is discriminatory, its because intergenerational issues is their identity.

[May90]

With the risk of repeating myself that's why i said both the creation and us rejecting them was a mistake and not merely the creation of.

Are you not aware that the west who tries to play a middle man in the talks condemns such actions from hamas? The criticism isn't that single sided far from.
As regards to propaganda that also takes place on both ends.
Both are responsible for the talks to be stopped. Israel does plenty of provocations what they know would blow up the talks. Even so much that i question the intend of the current people in power, i'm almost confident they are happy with the current situation.

And my problem with Israel is this as Mehrunes has pointed out, they claim to be the moral superior side in this conflict but they aren't in reality and when you make such claims it is not at all surprising that the west openly disagrees with that stance. Also shoot down a few terrorists, i think we both know it goes way beyond that considering the force they use. You really believe it would be better if we simply ignored all that took place there and not report on it at all or comment on it?

I think groups like ISIS would love to see that happen, more fuel for their fire.

You've never explained what you expected from the Jews to do in the given situation, other than go to the only place they were welcome in.

"Criticism" means nothing, it doesn't save lives or stop wars. When there are people dying to terrorist acts and rocket bombings, either do something about it, or the attacked will be forced to do something on their own.

Israel is definitely morally superior, at least because they teach their children the importance of protecting the Israeli interests, rather than the importance of purging evil Arabs from the face of the planet. But even so, they are forced to react asymmetrically, because this is the only way to make the enemies understand that the Israeli government isn't joking around. The reason so many civilians die is because the "freedom fighters" do everything they can to use those civilians as human shields - not much you can do against such a dirty tactic, other than turn back, which is not an option, or shoot anyway, trying to minimize the casualties under the circumstances, which is what they do.

Israel is not Belgium, where you can just smile, jump around with flowers and butterflies, enjoying your life innocently.

[ButterBeast]

The world is becoming pussyfied. PC taken to the extreme. SJWs as fanatical as Islamic terrorist. Feminists and feminazis everywhere. While the vilifying of the "cis white male Christian scum" is becoming more and more apparent.

you're a stereotype of yourself lmao.

[Acidbaron]

I believe its because of cultural and religious reasons that these things occur.

I vote for a center left party in a 2 party trending democracy.

I believe in economic conservatism and liberal social policies, trade protectionism from poorer nations, universal healthcare, paid tuition to higher learning.

Immigration should be heavily regulated, mostly to young or single parent families, I would design public housing to be spread out so that they cant foster negative cultural values in ghetto communities.

I was a product of intergenerational welfare, i dont commit cultural atrocities, i dont spray tags on buildings, i dont abuse people, i dont force my beliefs on others, ive never taken illicit substances, i dont smoke and i rarely drink, i dont suffer depression or resentment and neither do consider my mental state to be compromised, i dont believe in any religion or spirituality, my education until 3 years ago was high school only, my first full time employment came under a government subsidy from a welfare program.

My skin colour didnt help me at any stage, infact it hindered me because more was expected of me and i had less access to programs for disadvantaged people because i wasn't ethnic or disabled.

Ethnic people suffer not because a marginal percentage of the population is discriminatory, its because intergenerational issues is their identity.

I find it interesting that you would say it's a matter of culture and religion at core of the problem, but also at the same time suggest a solution which i also agree with that actually pinpoint the issue on the failed politics around it, such as the ghetto creation.

If you say it's a cultural thing, then why are people let's say turks far more modern in cities in Turkey than turks who migrated here? Is the city religion and culture different from other places in the nation?

[Deleted]

Something tells me that medieval western europe didn't do a lot of complaining about the sociological demonization of cis white male christians in their own territories. I don't know if you haven't thought your point out very much or if you don't understand history.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209...ing-everything

"In his 1624 book The Wise-Man's Forecast against the Evill Time, Thomas Barnes, the minister of St. Margaret's Church on New Fish Street in London, bemoaned:

Youth were never more sawcie, yea never more savagely saucie . . . the ancient are scorned, the honourable are contemned, the magistrate is not dreaded."



But what you're refering to is no norm. Normal people find it dumb. Normal people reject it. No, what you're refering to are fringe personalities with their cult followings influencing ignorant but passiont youths.
This is all normal behavior on the internet, but not in real life, where it's rightfully scorned, mocked and ignored most of the time. It's fringe behavior.

[Acidbaron]

You've never explained what you expected from the Jews to do in the given situation, other than go to the only place they were welcome in.

"Criticism" means nothing, it doesn't save lives or stop wars. When there are people dying to terrorist acts and rocket bombings, either do something about it, or the attacked will be forced to do something on their own.

Israel is definitely morally superior, at least because they teach their children the importance of protecting the Israeli interests, rather than the importance of purging evil Arabs from the face of the planet. But even so, they are forced to react asymmetrically, because this is the only way to make the enemies understand that the Israeli government isn't joking around. The reason so many civilians die is because the "freedom fighters" do everything they can to use those civilians as human shields - not much you can do against such a dirty tactic, other than turn back, which is not an option, or shoot anyway, trying to minimize the casualties under the circumstances, which is what they do.

Israel is not Belgium, where you can just smile, jump around with flowers and butterflies, enjoying your life innocently.

You are setting up parameters to make it so that is the only outcome, if we are talking about different outcomes. Why am i not allowed to use europe accepting them as an alternative much like the creation of Israel is a possible outcome?

No Israel does not take the moral high ground here, against hamas yes but hamas isn't representative of the entire palenstinian population present in Israel. The propaganda is present on both sides, hence the violence also in Israel and not just in the gaza strip and the formation of extreme national/zionist groups in Israel. As i pointed out before you have people who will go and riot at mixed marriages to put it kindly.
Civilian shields still does not explain the use of illegal weapons.

Also why Israel can't take the moral ground, they claim they want peace and want the peace talks correct? Yet there are very specific triggers that makes the other side leave the table, what the Israel gladly makes use of such as the illegal settlements being allowed to build further. As i said the current government seems to like this status quo and probably seems to find this acceptable.

Also you can simply disagree with me, you don't have to almost constantly attempt that i have no clue regards the situation there. Or do you really think i would suddenly go knowing all that and what i wrote before "really the situation on the street in Israel isn't the same as in Belgium! god damn i never knew! I found it odd already there are so few rockets being shot around in Belgium! I knew i was missing something!"

[May90]

You are setting up parameters to make it so that is the only outcome, if we are talking about different outcomes. Why am i not allowed to use europe accepting them as an alternative much like the creation of Israel is a possible outcome?

No Israel does not take the moral high ground here, against hamas yes but hamas isn't representative of the entire palenstinian population present in Israel. The propaganda is present on both sides, hence the violence also in Israel and not just in the gaza strip and the formation of extreme national/zionist groups in Israel. As i pointed out before you have people who will go and riot at mixed marriages to put it kindly.
Civilian shields still does not explain the use of illegal weapons.

Also why Israel can't take the moral ground, they claim they want peace and want the peace talks correct? Yet there are very specific triggers that makes the other side leave the table, what the Israel gladly makes use of such as the illegal settlements being allowed to build further. As i said the current government seems to like this status quo and probably seems to find this acceptable.

Also you can simply disagree with me, you don't have to almost constantly attempt that i have no clue regards the situation there. Or do you really think i would suddenly go knowing all that and what i wrote before "really the situation on the street in Israel isn't the same as in Belgium! god damn i never knew! I found it odd already there are so few rockets being shot around in Belgium! I knew i was missing something!"

Because I am not talking about Europe, I am talking about these people. Yes, okay, Europe should have accepted them. It did not. Now what? What are they to do?

Hamas is representative of the Palestinian government, which is supported by the Palestinian people. What do Americans say? "We don't negotiate with terrorists"? That's the reason why the talks aren't going anywhere: Israel cannot accept the humiliating conditions Palestinian government offers. If you want my honest opinion, I think that the "two state" talk is just Israeli government trying to please the international community; in reality, they well understand that two-state solution implemented in practice would mean death of Israel. Once Palestine gets a foothold, they will keep pushing for more. Just listen to their leaders, they do not acknowledge the right of Israel to exist - you really think that, empowered by getting their own state, they will suddenly change their outlook?

Yes, indeed, you don't understand the situation there. I can see that, because I've lived in a few third-world countries similar to Palestine to know what they are like. You are used to a luxurious life in Belgium, and you think you can apply your moral standards formed in the conditions of serenity and safety to a nation that is surrounded by wolves wanting a piece of it. I know well that there are situations in which moral standards don't mean jack: when your survival is endangered, for example.

[Acidbaron]

Because I am not talking about Europe, I am talking about these people. Yes, okay, Europe should have accepted them. It did not. Now what? What are they to do?

Hamas is representative of the Palestinian government, which is supported by the Palestinian people. What do Americans say? "We don't negotiate with terrorists"? That's the reason why the talks aren't going anywhere: Israel cannot accept the humiliating conditions Palestinian government offers.

Yes, indeed, you don't understand the situation there. I can see that, because I've lived in a few third-world countries similar to Palestine to know what they are like. You are used to a luxurious life in Belgium, and you think you can apply your moral standards formed in the conditions of serenity and safety to a nation that is surrounded by wolves wanting a piece of it. I know well that there are situations in which moral standards don't mean jack: when your survival is endangered, for example.

You claim i don't understand the situation there and in the same post you mention that you believe that Hamas is leading the peace talks for the Palestinian people.
It's not i that is holding Israel to that standard, it is Israel claiming to be of that moral standard.

I think i have entertained your biases regarding this long enough. This is going in circles and is becoming quite dull and if you believe that Israel has no fault in why the talks are blown up there is no common ground for me to even bother with this discussion any further.

[Halicia]

Until you've worked in a job where you had to stop to do hourly bomb sweeps, you can't appreciate how "mundane" living in a warzone gets.

Its another thing entirely when it strikes people who aren't familiar with the daily routine of the wars they debate from their armchairs.

[May90]

You claim i don't understand the situation there and in the same post you mention that you believe that Hamas is leading the peace talks for the Palestinian people.
It's not i that is holding Israel to that standard, it is Israel claiming to be of that moral standard.

I think i have entertained your biases regarding this long enough. This is going in circles and is becoming quite dull and if you believe that Israel has no fault in why the talks are blown up there is no common ground for me to even bother with this discussion any further.

No, what I'm saying is that the Palestinian government has the same goals (and it has stated them explicitly multiple times) as Hamas it covers up does. Which is not surprising, really: Hamas used to be the Palestinian government, until people have voted for another similar organization, with the only difference from Hamas being the name.

You apparently aren't even reading what I'm saying, putting words in my mouth and refusing to answer the question I've asked a dozen times already. Suit yourself. Let both the Israeli and the Palestinians suffer due to the endless violence, because "who is to blame" is more important for people nowadays than "what can be done?".

[Sky High]

I can tell you my inability to care about the situation in Israel compared to London is this: not only are terror attacks (from my admittedly limited American view) waaaaaaaaaaaaay more prevalent in that entire region, to the point you get inoculated from giving a shit. but the situation is entirely the fault of the Jews and Muslims living there.

[Kuntantee]

No, we're not in their position because we respect human rights.

Did you know what we did when we needed more land?
We just created 1500 square kilometers of land.



We didn't need to steal it or kill anyone for it.

You are not in their position, because you are a small country with little to no native ethnic variance. Look around you, in any country with some concentration of some native ethnic group, you have either struggle or armed struggle. This is same for Europe. UK, Spain, Nordics (Sami people).

[Deleted]

OP. Sense of irony isn't lost in the UK.

All this happened in the same week that Ireland buried a terrorist that committed unspeakable crimes and refused to atone - because 'validation' of his cause was a matter of interpretation.