Appalling double standards over here :(

[May90]

No, we're not in their position because we respect human rights.

You have the luxury of being able to afford to never bend your stance on human rights, because your country has gone through centuries of heavy fighting and religious zealotry to get to that point, and now you are surrounded by friendlies and protected by the might of NATO. You are not endangered by anyone, you can live playing with butterflies.

Try this in Israel, and the state will cease to exist in a few years.

[Sunseeker]

If you do not understand the difference between what happened in London, and what has been ongoing in Israel, you should do some research. They are not remotely the same.

Yeah....mostly this. There are probably some comparisons to be made, but not this one.

[Jinpachi]

Christians are scum just like all religious people. You have held us back and continue to ruin the world with stupid beliefs.

Infracted

Except for the fact that there has never been a single civilization built on atheism.

[Deleted]

Except for the fact that there has never been a single civilization built on atheism.

There also hasn't been a single illness cured by religion.

[Jinpachi]

There also hasn't been a single illness cured by religion.

Difference without a distinction. It's civilization that gives opportunities for those who don't share the religious beliefs to ply their trade. So yes, religion has cured illness.

[May90]

Except for the fact that there has never been a single civilization built on atheism.

One has never been attempted.

[Jinpachi]

One has never been attempted.

That you know of. And chances are if one was attempted, it would falter on the simple premise of subjective morality.

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Because I am not talking about Europe, I am talking about these people. Yes, okay, Europe should have accepted them. It did not. Now what? What are they to do?

Hamas is representative of the Palestinian government, which is supported by the Palestinian people. What do Americans say? "We don't negotiate with terrorists"? That's the reason why the talks aren't going anywhere: Israel cannot accept the humiliating conditions Palestinian government offers. If you want my honest opinion, I think that the "two state" talk is just Israeli government trying to please the international community; in reality, they well understand that two-state solution implemented in practice would mean death of Israel. Once Palestine gets a foothold, they will keep pushing for more. Just listen to their leaders, they do not acknowledge the right of Israel to exist - you really think that, empowered by getting their own state, they will suddenly change their outlook?

Yes, indeed, you don't understand the situation there. I can see that, because I've lived in a few third-world countries similar to Palestine to know what they are like. You are used to a luxurious life in Belgium, and you think you can apply your moral standards formed in the conditions of serenity and safety to a nation that is surrounded by wolves wanting a piece of it. I know well that there are situations in which moral standards don't mean jack: when your survival is endangered, for example.

This is exactly what i try to tell people. Even though i've never lived over there, it's not hard to do a little research to find out how it really is.

[Deleted]

Difference without a distinction. It's civilization that gives opportunities for those who don't share the religious beliefs to ply their trade. So yes, religion has cured illness.

Seems religion has a sense of humour if it thinks it's responsible for creating a movement that undermines itself. Intelligent design at its finest.

[Swizzington]

That you know of. And chances are if one was attempted, it would falter on the simple premise of subjective morality.

[Ilir]

The world is becoming pussyfied. PC taken to the extreme. SJWs as fanatical as Islamic terrorist. Feminists and feminazis everywhere. While the vilifying of the "cis white male Christian scum" is becoming more and more apparent.

lmao

cry me a river

[May90]

That you know of. And chances are if one was attempted, it would falter on the simple premise of subjective morality.

The premise of subjective morality is what modern democratic societies are build on; the very idea of democracy was born from the realization that different people have different beliefs, and no one has the authority of putting them in practice, but people through democratic consensus.

[Gorgodeus]

Except for the fact that there has never been a single civilization built on atheism.

A contemplative life not centered on the idea of deities began in the sixth century BCE with the rise of Jainism, Buddhism, and certain sects of Hinduism in India, and of Taoism in China. These religions claim to offer a philosophic and salvific path not involving deity worship. Deities are not seen as necessary to the salvific goal of the early Buddhist tradition, their reality is explicitly questioned and often rejected. There is a fundamental incompatibility between the notion of gods and basic Buddhist principles, at least in many interpretations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

[Zecora]

A contemplative life not centered on the idea of deities began in the sixth century BCE with the rise of Jainism, Buddhism, and certain sects of Hinduism in India, and of Taoism in China. These religions claim to offer a philosophic and salvific path not involving deity worship. Deities are not seen as necessary to the salvific goal of the early Buddhist tradition, their reality is explicitly questioned and often rejected. There is a fundamental incompatibility between the notion of gods and basic Buddhist principles, at least in many interpretations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

I would not call a lack of emphasis on worship of gods the same as atheism, especially when there are all the other hallmarks of religion, such as a clear and defined view of a continuation post-death. As for gods, neither Buddhism nor the other examples you mention dismiss them or refute them, they are just not seen as having the power to offer real and lasting "salvation" (which is to say, a cessation of Saṃsāra).

[Adolecent]

London's tragic lone wolf terrorist attack was rightly widely condemned all across the world this week. Our prayers and thoughts go to the victims of that senseless violence. However I noticed the exact same type of attacks carried out in Israel and the response completely different - instead the IDF soldier who shot the gunman was criticised and focused on for excessive force, while the police who took down the london terrorist was applauded.

It seems when islamic terrorist in Israel perpetuate violent acts its as if they are regarded as freedom fighters, but when the same is done in western countries everyone is appalled and condemns. It looks like its one standard for Israel, and another for us. This smacks of hypocritical behvaiour by the press - and makes me wonder...wth is going on in the world. Also incredible how propaganda has spun evil and terror to such an extent that in one country, the international community condemns a free nation for defending its population from murderous crazies and in an other they applaud.

Look how many phone calls from heads of state we got after the attack, and yet where is our empathy when innocents are killed by crazies in Israel where is the support. This is really showing us where our hearts truly lie. If you really cared about life and were genuinely seeking after good, you would be as passionate in your support of Israel after an attack as you were of Britain, and the focus would always be condemning towards the terrorist , not neutrality if they're palestinian but condmentation if its a muslim in the west.

This really is troubling - makes me wonder how genuine these people are. As for the mainstream media, they lost my respect a long time ago. I'm just seeing double standards all over especially in such terrible events.

In Europe we're not building a wall around stolen land and are squeezing the original owners to death to steal it. Comparing the EU and Israelian situation with eachother is lunatic, although i as an European recognise that we didn't quite make the situation in the Middle East any better.

[Macaquerie]

Even if religious societies did promote morality, I fail to see how it's a point in their favor because all of that good behavior is based on propagating a lie. Regardless of what religion you're talking about, generally in any community the true believers will be in the minority, and the best you can hope for from everyone else is that they sort of just agree to go along with it so as to not upset the apple cart. But of course, you are always going to have people who just ignore the moral code completely or, even worse, cynically exploit them to restrict the freedom of others while enriching themselves. And this goes for any of the other supposed benefits of religion - they only actually work if what you believe in is actually true, and that is at best unproven.

[Swiftshadow]

Well, think of it this way:

If I wake up in the morning and find poop in the toilet, it's not really much of a surprise. But if I find poop on the kitchen table, well we have a reason to be concerned now.

You made me smile today. Thanks. Doo-doo on the table greeting you in the morning is a good indicator of how the rest of your day is gonna be like.

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It's because the Israeli/Palestinian situation is a loser, and nobody wants to touch it. Seriously. 25 years from now Americans are going to be walking on Mars with a base they co-built with Europeans. Meanwhile back in the Levant, Palestinians will still be fighting over olive groves their great, great grandparents lost in war and and Israel will be still trying to kick the demographic day of reckoning ever further into the future.

The entire situation is radioactive and it profits nobody to touch it. The single best Middle East policy in the last 40 years was George W Bush's "I don't give a shit, let them kill each other, we're going to focus on bigger picture stuff".

Of course he blew it on "bigger picture stuff" but the point was valid. Hopefully the ISIS campaign is the end to Middle Eastern intrigue for us and we can instead focus on things that actually matter in Europe and Asia-Pacific... where the people and the money is.

The Middle East "Crisis"? The death of innocent people is always a tragedy and terrorism should always be condemned, but when was the last time anything fundamentally changed about the stupidest fight in the past 100 years?

Oh and by the way, the US and Israel need to have a little talk about the Israel buying US drone technology, reverse engineering it, and partnering up with China and Russia. Not cool. Not cool at all.

I vaguely remember hearing or reading somewhere that based on general history, there's always been a great war every 50 to 60 years. It's 60+ years since WW2.

I hope that won't turn out to be true.

I still need to live long enough to watch the final GoT episode.

[slime]

Well, think of it this way:

If I wake up in the morning and find poop in the toilet, it's not really much of a surprise. But if I find poop on the kitchen table, well we have a reason to be concerned now.

Would it be okay if I called England the toilet that it is and Israel the kitchen table?

[Mehrunes]

I understand that, and I myself also think that accepting the refugees in Western countries would be a better decision. But I'm looking at the perspective of the Jews: given that the West has rejected them and offered them a choice, go to Israel and build your own nation, or to hell with you - what should they have done, if not this?

You keep repeating this nonsense and I have to keep wondering, from whose ass did you pull it from? When did the western countries after WWII exhibit "to hell with you if you don't go to Israel" mentality? Did they deny them citizenship and burned their IDs? Was it when UK actually limited immigration to Palestine before Israel was formed and to Israel for a bit after the formation (which led to Jews immigrating illegally)? Was it these countries simply allowing the Jews to leave and Jews using that option?

Israeli people were cornered from the start. I may not support many actions Israeli have taken over the decades, or some actions they take nowadays - but when you get treated like they did, you pretty much have to be harsh in defense of your interests to avoid losing everything. Much like at school: if you are being bullied constantly, sometimes you have to kick a few asses to let people know that you won't tolerate being beaten up like this. You may criticize the Munich Massacre response, it was illegal on many levels, and in actuality it was just a state-sanctioned mass murder - but you have to admit, since then the terrorist attacks on Israeli of such scale stopped, because Israel made it clear that the murder of its people will always be followed by much meaner actions.

Weirdly enough, beating up your bullies isn't a tolerated solution anymore either. I can't help but wonder why :3 Also, beating them up, holding your foot on their throat for decades, what's the difference lel.

If the international community wants Israel to play by the rules and to treat Palestine well, maybe, for starters, they should force Palestine to stop endless rocket bombings, harboring the vilest terrorist organizations on this planet, brainwashing kids at schools by telling them that the best thing they can do in their life is to commit a suicide attack against Jews? Or they can keep their hands dry, leave Israel to be eaten by wolves, and when Israel is forced to go ahead and to shoot a few packs down to stop the endless terrorist attacks - suddenly wake up: "Baaaaaad, baaaaaad Israel!"

This portrayal of this chicken and an egg problem is totally not one sided and doesn't reek of victim complex in the slightest. It does make your earlier whining about misguided west using Israel and US as a scapegoat even funnier though. Also, god forbid a state acts like a state and holds higher standards than non-state actors. Let alone fucking terrorists. Who are completely beloved by the international community /s It's only poor, innocent, oppressed Israel that gets the blame. While Hamas is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize on yearly basis, by none other than the Secretary-General of the United Nations. It has become a tradition by now.

"Criticism" means nothing, it doesn't save lives or stop wars. When there are people dying to terrorist acts and rocket bombings, either do something about it, or the attacked will be forced to do something on their own.

So you think Iran should go to war with Israel? Interesting. I thought you cried about it being a mean state before.

Israel is definitely morally superior, at least because they teach their children the importance of protecting the Israeli interests, rather than the importance of purging evil Arabs from the face of the planet. But even so, they are forced to react asymmetrically, because this is the only way to make the enemies understand that the Israeli government isn't joking around. The reason so many civilians die is because the "freedom fighters" do everything they can to use those civilians as human shields - not much you can do against such a dirty tactic, other than turn back, which is not an option, or shoot anyway, trying to minimize the casualties under the circumstances, which is what they do.

Israel isn't forced to do shit. They choose that response themselves. And it's working pure wonders so far. Are they also forced to behave the way they do when it comes to illegal settlements in the West Bank? If so, by whom? And yeah, the human shields are obviously the only reason why civilians die. Airstrike bombings and mortar shelling with white phosphorus munition are after all immensely precise. Top notch minimization of casualties you got there.

Hamas is representative of the Palestinian government, which is supported by the Palestinian people.

Why is it such an occurring theme with you that you constantly put yourself on a pedestal and portray yourself as some paragon of knowledge sent to this world (or forum, at least) to lecture the "misguided" masses and then repeatedly showcase that you don't actually have a clue about what you're talking about?

What do Americans say? "We don't negotiate with terrorists"? That's the reason why the talks aren't going anywhere: Israel cannot accept the humiliating conditions Palestinian government offers. If you want my honest opinion, I think that the "two state" talk is just Israeli government trying to please the international community; in reality, they well understand that two-state solution implemented in practice would mean death of Israel. Once Palestine gets a foothold, they will keep pushing for more. Just listen to their leaders, they do not acknowledge the right of Israel to exist - you really think that, empowered by getting their own state, they will suddenly change their outlook?

I.e. in reality, they deny Palestine's right to exist too. Damn, that moral superiority you talked about earlier. I totally see it now. Also, what humiliating conditions? West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem? So humiliating. It's totally not what was established by UN or US. And weirdly enough, last significant summit on two-state solution didn't go anywhere because of one party of the majority coalition in Knesset cockblocking the rest and threatening collapse of said majority should they agree. They also totally don't shit on their own obligations as established by road map for piece like not settling in the West Bank and East Jerusalem or allowing people from West Bank free access to Gaza. But hey, they use the childlike excuse "Palestine doesn't fulfill their obligation to stop the rocket strikes", so all is swell. Even though the Israeli breaches mostly target West Bank while their excuse is what's happening in Gaza. With West Bank and Gaza not even being ruled by the same people.

Yes, indeed, you don't understand the situation there. I can see that, because I've lived in a few third-world countries similar to Palestine to know what they are like. You are used to a luxurious life in Belgium, and you think you can apply your moral standards formed in the conditions of serenity and safety to a nation that is surrounded by wolves wanting a piece of it. I know well that there are situations in which moral standards don't mean jack: when your survival is endangered, for example.

So which one is it, moral standards don't mean jack and Israel is justified in everything they do, or they have a moral high ground?

No, what I'm saying is that the Palestinian government has the same goals (and it has stated them explicitly multiple times) as Hamas it covers up does. Which is not surprising, really: Hamas used to be the Palestinian government, until people have voted for another similar organization, with the only difference from Hamas being the name.

Yeah, Fatah totes legit covers for Hamas. That's why they were even in open conflict for a time. Also, apparently things like "being against two-state solution and demanding just Palestine" and "being in favor of two-state solution" do not constitute a difference. Learn more on the newest episode of "Cluelessness About Everything With May90: From Words To Politics"!

You are not in their position, because you are a small country with little to no native ethnic variance. Look around you, in any country with some concentration of some native ethnic group, you have either struggle or armed struggle. This is same for Europe. UK, Spain, Nordics (Sami people).

Netherlands is roughly twice the size of Israel... And it's not particularly more unified ethnically speaking than Israel... But OK, the minorities are more divergent. Let's hop over a boarder to Belgium. Still ~50% larger than Israel. Higher ethnic variance than Israel, with most of it caused by one ethnic group that's (percentage-wise) even more populous than Arabs in Israel. I don't really see Belgium using these harder measures of yours that are something supposedly justified by this position. Or Spain and Nordics, for that matter.

You have the luxury of being able to afford to never bend your stance on human rights, because your country has gone through centuries of heavy fighting and religious zealotry to get to that point, and now you are surrounded by friendlies and protected by the might of NATO. You are not endangered by anyone, you can live playing with butterflies.

Israel is protected by the might of US. And, you know, their own nuclear deterrent. Also, Jews didn't just spawn out of nowhere in Israel, they lived in Europe and were shaped by European values. And when it comes to Palestine in specific, Israel's situation isn't monumentally different than the Troubles. Yet even today they can't meet the bar set by UK in a conflict that ended almost two decades ago.

Try this in Israel, and the state will cease to exist in a few years.

How and why exactly?

[May90]

And that would be a bad thing why exactly?

Oh, I don't know. There are people there who will be slaughtered by fanatics if the state falls... Not a bad thing at all! Who cares about the lives of people, if their political agenda is different from yours.

[Kuntantee]

Netherlands is roughly twice the size of Israel... And it's not particularly more unified ethnically speaking than Israel... But OK, the minorities are more divergent. Let's hop over a boarder to Belgium. Still ~50% larger than Israel. Higher ethnic variance than Israel, with most of it caused by one ethnic group that's (percentage-wise) even more populous than Arabs in Israel. I don't really see Belgium using these harder measures of yours that are something supposedly justified by this position. Or Spain and Nordics, for that matter.

If you think Belgium is all an dandy, you are mistaken. I am not expert on Belgium, but didn't they had lots of troubles between Dutch and French in there? Belgium is a special example because the so called French and Dutch "minorities" in there are roughly equal in size. Not so
shockingly, the problems occur between two dominant "minority" group. The measures and the extent of the problems depend on type of "struggle". Israel has some serious security problems due to Hamas. For Turkey, it's PKK. Now, I've already said that these countries' previous positions towards minorities are core reasons why such problems exist in the first place but not the sole one. Britain against IRA followed a rather rigorous procedure in terms of law, it still didn't prevent massacres and human right violations on both sides.