M-103 has passed. And what today has changed for the better?

[May90]

That linked website hanged my browser for a few seconds, and I barely managed to close it due to the lag it induced. What the hell?

[Mormolyce]

Not protected from criticism.

And no part of M-103 would do that either.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a literal phobia. Neither is homophobia. People just borrowed the suffix to make neologisms.

All -phobias are neologisms. At least when referring to psychological phobias. The terms were invented in the late 1800s/early 1900s when Freud and the like started proposing those ideas. I don't think the DSM started recognising them until the 1950s.

- - - Updated - - -

islamophobia is another word for blasphemy.
so yes, it is about blasphemy.

And if that were true, you might have a point.

[Sunseeker]

Not protected from criticism.

Calling an entire religion (any religion) and its followers violent dangerous lunatics and that they need to be deported, banned from practicing their faith, arrested and interrogated or worse isn't criticism, at least not any productive form of criticism, especially when the person making such a statement has no interest in actually hearing any argument to the contrary, even if such an argument were hypothetically, well founded and well constructed.

Taking issue with certain specific elements of a religion is something that can be responded to. THAT is criticism, that is useful and healthy to a thriving society. If you're not going to contribute to what is necessary to a healthy and thriving society, what purpose do you serve?

Yelling at someone and telling them they're horrible and ugly and stupid and need to gtfo 'cause you don't like their hair color is just hate. There's no reason to tolerate more hate in the world.

[Cthulhu 2020]

This is one of the biggest strawman and victim complex posts I've seen in a while. I'm kinda truly impressed at how it's literally ignored everything discussed in this thread so far because it's inconvenient to your personal views.

Theo has like half the board on ignore. She doesn't like seeing posts that easily shoot down her own.

[Deleted]

I like the great Canadian motto of fit in or fuck off.

Be real, this motto isn't relevant in todays Canada and hasnt been for a long while I assume.

But I agree, immigration without assimilation is invasion.

[analmoose]

Be real, this motto isn't relevant in todays Canada and hasnt been for a long while I assume.

But I agree, immigration without assimilation is invasion.

It's used constantly, but that being said I'm in the western half, we're not so liberal and politically correct

[Theodarzna]

Calling an entire religion (any religion) and its followers violent dangerous lunatics and that they need to be deported, banned from practicing their faith, arrested and interrogated or worse isn't criticism, at least not any productive form of criticism, especially when the person making such a statement has no interest in actually hearing any argument to the contrary, even if such an argument were hypothetically, well founded and well constructed.

Taking issue with certain specific elements of a religion is something that can be responded to. THAT is criticism, that is useful and healthy to a thriving society. If you're not going to contribute to what is necessary to a healthy and thriving society, what purpose do you serve?

Yelling at someone and telling them they're horrible and ugly and stupid and need to gtfo 'cause you don't like their hair color is just hate. There's no reason to tolerate more hate in the world.

If you can back up that claim with evidence, then you can. For example the Aztec religion called for capturing a great amount of captives and cutting their hearts out to keep the Gods fed, were they not at least dangerous to those non-Aztecs? More over one can critically evaluate the relative danger posed to non-believers in any ideology. So for example, I am not threatened by Jainism in any way. If someone takes Jainism to its literal understanding they get naked and never eat. Now the Aztec believer on the other hand is a very serious possible threat if taken to its logical conclusion.

What criticism would you consider "Healthy?" After all Sam Harris simply voiced questions based on polling data and was considered a horrible "Islamophobia" by some very prominent figures.

[Sunseeker]

If you can back up that claim with evidence, then you can.

That evidence doesn't exist, and you know damn well it doesn't.

And no, I'm not going to engage with your silly comparison to the Aztecs (who we actually know very little about, yay colonialism!).

What criticism would you consider "Healthy?" After all Sam Harris simply voiced questions based on polling data and was considered a horrible "Islamophobia" by some very prominent figures.

I don't know who Sam Harris is because I don't really care to keep track of every Tom, Dick or Harry that shoots their mouth off about Islam. I, unlike you, have better things to do with my time.

What criticism would I consider healthy? I dunno. Islam is a very large and complex religion. With most Muslims in the West I have little critique and I don't know enough details about their religion to bring up any given element to question them on. But I suppose that's the jist of it.

Discuss specific elements of their holy text and associated practices. Clearly Muslims Stateside are doing things differently on the whole than in Saudi Arabia or Iran or Myanmar, so logically they must have found solutions to their own critiques of their own religion, I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you how they came to those conclusions if anyone would actually ask them in a reasonable manner.

[Cthulhu 2020]

That evidence doesn't exist, and you know damn well it doesn't.

And no, I'm not going to engage with your silly comparison to the Aztecs (who we actually know very little about, yay colonialism!).


I don't know who Sam Harris is because I don't really care to keep track of every Tom, Dick or Harry that shoots their mouth off about Islam. I, unlike you, have better things to do with my time.

What criticism would I consider healthy? I dunno. Islam is a very large and complex religion. With most Muslims in the West I have little critique and I don't know enough details about their religion to bring up any given element to question them on. But I suppose that's the jist of it.

Discuss specific elements of their holy text and associated practices. Clearly Muslims Stateside are doing things differently on the whole than in Saudi Arabia or Iran or Myanmar, so logically they must have found solutions to their own critiques of their own religion, I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you how they came to those conclusions if anyone would actually ask them in a reasonable manner.

If Theo were being honest (the hard part) she'd know that Islamic beliefs and practices vary by geographical region. What she seems to suffer from is the same delusions that she has about liberals: She (and many others) seem to believe it's some giant homogenous blob. In reality, the homophobic Muslims, Muslims who treat women like they are sub human, Muslims who are more likely to sympathize with radical groups, are in the middle eastern countries. And even then, most of those countries are beginning to seriously modernize.

Something many also don't realize is that Christians in such nations have similarly draconian views. Views of women only slightly less horrible than muslim counterparts, disdain for gays, etc.

Religious culture is more influenced by REGIONAL culture than anything else. There are millions of Muslims in the US who are for gay rights and equal treatment of women, but don't tell that to any of this forum's crew of deplorables.

For being in university in her 30's, you'd think Theo would know a lot more than she actually does.

[Super Kami Dende]

And another step back for civilised countries!

Congratulations regressives!

[Sunseeker]

If Theo were being honest (the hard part) she'd know that Islamic beliefs and practices vary by geographical region. What she seems to suffer from is the same delusions that she has about liberals: She (and many others) seem to believe it's some giant homogenous blob. In reality, the homophobic Muslims, Muslims who treat women like they are sub human, Muslims who are more likely to sympathize with radical groups, are in the middle eastern countries. And even then, most of those countries are beginning to seriously modernize.

Something many also don't realize is that Christians in such nations have similarly draconian views. Views of women only slightly less horrible than muslim counterparts, disdain for gays, etc.

Religious culture is more influenced by REGIONAL culture than anything else. There are millions of Muslims in the US who are for gay rights and equal treatment of women, but don't tell that to any of this forum's crew of deplorables.

For being in university in her 30's, you'd think Theo would know a lot more than she actually does.

Having been to college, it's amazing the amount of education that can be poured into a person and not produce a drop of intelligence or wisdom.

Also, American colleges really don't teach eastern culture like....at all, unless you sign up for specific course and even then, you have to take specific culturally-detailed courses to actually get specific information, otherwise you'll just end up with a vague "eastern history" course. And people like Theo simply don't take the kind of coursework required to gain that sort of information.

That's why people like Tho slam "womens studies" courses, courses I've taken for this context, which focus on the contributions women have made to various parts of science, religion and culture as well as "feminist theory" which covers in detail the different waves and differeing ideologies within feminism; they simply don't know and they refuse to learn. Which really is many educated people's biggest issue with people like Theo. It's not that they can't learn. It's that they refuse.

So no, it's really not surprising that people with small-minded world views don't take classes designed to widen that view.

[Nitro Fun]

If Theo were being honest (the hard part) she'd know that Islamic beliefs and practices vary by geographical region. What she seems to suffer from is the same delusions that she has about liberals: She (and many others) seem to believe it's some giant homogenous blob. In reality, the homophobic Muslims, Muslims who treat women like they are sub human, Muslims who are more likely to sympathize with radical groups, are in the middle eastern countries. And even then, most of those countries are beginning to seriously modernize.

No, they're not in the middle eastern countries. Like I said earlier: If you knew the islamic community from within you'd be scared shitless of what many think about non-muslims and westerners. What we think is crazy is relatively common among muslims.

[Wikiy]

This sentence is abject nonsense. There's no right to not be a social outcast and if there was, it wouldn't be predicated on the productivity of the individual. To see how absurd this is, try it on for size with a KKK member - does he a right to not be a social outcast? Is that right preserved in and only if he's a pretty decent day laborer, but is lost if he becomes physically disabled?

Did you not notice the part where I put in the qualifier that my statement is true only for people who are actually productive members of society? A KKK member is not a productive member of society, nor is an Imam preaching how Westerners should be killed.

[Spectral]

Did you not notice the part where I put in the qualifier that my statement is true only for people who are actually productive members of society? A KKK member is not a productive member of society, nor is an Imam preaching how Westerners should be killed.

I guess you're just defining "productive" on a highly discretionary basis? Seems completely unprincipled.

[Wikiy]

I guess you're just defining "productive" on a highly discretionary basis? Seems completely unprincipled.

Pretend I just said people who don't wish harm on others don't really deserve to get hate letters and whatnot. Which doesn't mean that should be an offense. I never said that. However, guess what, the thing the parliament passed wasn't a law, it was more of a statement of stance.

[Endus]

No, they're not in the middle eastern countries. Like I said earlier: If you knew the islamic community from within you'd be scared shitless of what many think about non-muslims and westerners. What we think is crazy is relatively common among muslims.

Your big issue, here, is that many of us DO "know the Islamic community from within", and we see precisely how wrongheaded this prejudicial garbage you're spreading is.

[Nitro Fun]

Your big issue, here, is that many of us DO "know the Islamic community from within", and we see precisely how wrongheaded this prejudicial garbage you're spreading is.

In what manner do you know it from within? You're not a muslim, your family is not muslim. Half my family are muslims of malay descent, they say one thing to non-muslims and then another to muslims. They're the most two faced people you'll ever come across. You can hear them say they support LGBT only for them to say that someone deserved it when they're killed for being LGBT to their muslim friends. If it was up to them LGBT people would be executed and most of them are living in west.

I'm not spreading any prejudicial garbage by exposing the two faced community that muslims are.

[Endus]

In what manner do you know it from within? You're not a muslim, your family is not muslim.

How on Earth can you claim to know that?

Also, your family are not "all Muslims", which is sort of the point.

[Nitro Fun]

How on Earth can you claim to know that?

Because you've said as much.

Hell, he'd probably class me in that group, and that's an issue.

Yes, my ethnic background is primarily Scottish. My paternal grandparents were all relatively recent immigrants; my grandfather was 2nd generation, my grandma a war bride from Scotland after WWII. My maternal line goes back to the 1500s in the Americas. And includes Naskapi Innu; I'm a generation out from being able to claim status, if I wanted. I wouldn't, because I wasn't raised in that culture, but that background's important to me.

And "Christian"? I was raised Anglican, but I left the faith in my tweens, and I've basically been agnostic or atheist since.

Also, your family are not "all Muslims", which is sort of the point.

No, they're not. But so many muslims are just like them. Incredibly two faced when it comes to what they say to non-muslims and what they say to their muslim friends. It's endemic.

[Kalis]

How on Earth can you claim to know that?

Also, your family are not "all Muslims", which is sort of the point.

You claimed to know the Islamic community from within, so show you are better acquainted than someone who has Muslim family members.

What percentage of Muslims in the West would you say hold extremist views that are incompatible with Western values? You being the expert and all, you should have a general idea.