High end raiding in huge decline?

[Tiberria]

The important thing to note is that 20M has proven to be far more sustainable for the Mythic raiding scene despite sub levels.

That's one argument you could make. The other argument that you could make is that high end raid participation kind of bottomed out with the drop from Cata > MoP, and it's mostly die hards that remain to the point that we won't likely see continued massive drops.

[Relapses]

Did you seriously not even pay any attention at all? Do you have some kind of mental disorder that forces you ignore facts, or are you actually acting like this willingly?

Again, from my last post, the number of guilds who had completed 5/10 (meaning you have managed to kill a whole two actual mythic bosses since the first three are so easy) on mythic was 764, in total 15280 players.

The number of guilds who at this point were 7/13 heroic SoO in 25-man only were 611, or 15275 players.

Wow, an increase of a massive 5 people! And that's if we follow your logic of not including any 10-man guilds at all in the SoO statistics, meaning the "Special Olympics" SoO 10-man guilds like Paragon, Exorsus, and so on.

Show me one single statistic that would in any way support your argument of participation having "dramatically increased" since SoO as you claimed here:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/showthre...5#post45095565

Just one, you can pick any statistic you want as long as you can prove it somehow. And no, you inventing it in your own delusional little mind does not count as proof.

...you seem to exist in a vacuum where the difficulty of SoO Heroic and Mythic NH are linear and directly comparable to one another. But back here in this pesky little thing we call "reality" they're not even close. (NH's first roadblock occurs at 4/10 where SoO gave guilds the ability to skip bosses.) And the purpose of the argument I was making was mostly in regards to the earlier bosses yet you keep trying to disprove me by spouting off bullshit statistics from mid-tier bosses. It's not even worth having a conversation about this with you since you're clearly delusional.

- - - Updated - - -

That's one argument you could make. The other argument that you could make is that high end raid participation kind of bottomed out with the drop from Cata > MoP, and it's mostly die hards that remain to the point that we won't likely see continued massive drops.

Check this out:



Cata > MoP's decline wasn't nearly as huge as WotLK > Cata's and one of the largest contributors to this was the introduction of gear parity between 10- and 25M.

[Grimnakh]

However raiding was the only way you can progress your gear after you hit max level and did the dungeons, even with the terribly drop rates in both dungeons and raids. So if you look at it in terms of just power progression, Vanilla is actually a lot more linear than the latter expansions. Yes, you're still going to hit a gear wall and need to raid mythic/heroic content to absolutely maximize your character, but there are multiple paths to get there compared to Vanilla (which, other than a few crafted outliers, are all from raiding).

To this day I do not understand why they allow WF/TF to go beyond base Mythic level, but I guess "free upgrades are ok because everyone gets a chance at it" is ok.

Probably because it creates a gear wall that makes 99% of the content obsolete once you get your bis gear from herioc, or normal or lfr or mythic plus ect? The TF/WF system is very well balanced and the best thing theyve done for gearing in the game in a long time. Its miles better than having to create new gear plateaus as catchups with baleful/pvp gear with tiny longevity and or obsolete for end game raiders the moment it comes out.

The endgame rewards were there in Classic but the vast majority didnt even really think about it until very late after the game came out, and it took a long long time to get to where you could do it if you could even find a group to go with.

- - - Updated - - -

...you seem to exist in a vacuum where the difficulty of SoO Heroic and Mythic NH are linear and directly comparable to one another. But back here in this pesky little thing we call "reality" they're not even close. (NH's first roadblock occurs at 4/10 where SoO gave guilds the ability to skip bosses.) And the purpose of the argument I was making was mostly in regards to the earlier bosses yet you keep trying to disprove me by spouting off bullshit statistics from mid-tier bosses. It's not even worth having a conversation about this with you since you're clearly delusional.

- - - Updated - - -



Check this out:



Cata > MoP's decline wasn't nearly as huge as WotLK > Cata's and one of the largest contributors to this was the introduction of gear parity between 10- and 25M.

Correlation is not the same as causation. People in raiding guilds think the world revolves around them and are completely out of touch with what makes an expansion popular or unpopular.

[Tiyr]

Check this out:



Cata > MoP's decline wasn't nearly as huge as WotLK > Cata's and one of the largest contributors to this was the introduction of gear parity between 10- and 25M.

This has to be the funniest shit I've ever seen.

You've been talking about the 10-man "special olympics", then you post a graph to support your fucked up arguments and guess what genius? Your graph is wrong in the funniest way possible.

The only place I've found that graph claims that the data is from wowprogress, no other information:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post34375583

The graph lists about 5000-something guilds who killed heroic Lich King, hard to tell exactly since the scales are fucked (probably because whoever made it didn't really know what they were doing).

However if we actually check wowprogress it lists only 1101 guilds:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4584

Huh, weird.. Where might the 5000-something number come from?

Oh yeah, that's the number of guilds who killed him on 10-man:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4583

You tried one single time to actually post something factual and you failed even worse than what I thought would even have been possible.

[Relapses]

Correlation is not the same as causation. People in raiding guilds think the world revolves around them and are completely out of touch with what makes an expansion popular or unpopular.

Uh, what?

I never mentioned expansion popularity since this thread is about raid participation levels. Something clearly happened between the end of WotLK and the beginning of Cata which had a massive impact on the number of guilds participating in endgame content. It's my belief that it was the introduction of gear parity which caused many 25M to disband to form the logistically easier to manage 10M alternative. This divide remained in effect until WoD when Blizzard made the proper decision and decided to keep endgame raiding on a single, fixed raid size which has proven not only to be far more sustainable but also resulted in encounters which have been tuned far more appropriately.

- - - Updated - - -

This has to be the funniest shit I've ever seen.

You've been talking about the 10-man "special olympics", then you post a graph to support your fucked up arguments and guess what genius? Your graph is wrong in the funniest way possible.

The only place I've found that graph claims that the data is from wowprogress, no other information:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post34375583

The graph lists about 5000-something guilds who killed heroic Lich King, hard to tell exactly since the scales are fucked (probably because whoever made it didn't really know what they were doing).

However if we actually check wowprogress it lists only 1101 guilds:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4584

Huh, weird.. Where might the 5000-something number come from?

Oh yeah, that's the number of guilds who killed him on 10-man:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4583

You tried one single time to actually post something factual and you failed even worse than what I thought would even have been possible.

Holy shit dude, would you stop? I'll admit that I should have included the source when I posted the picture but that graph isn't showing the number of people killing the last boss in the instance, it's showing how many guilds killed a boss in the instance.

Here's the thread where the graph is from:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...LK-through-MoP

It's obviously not an exact approximation but in terms of statistical relevance to this conversation, it's worth mentioning.

[Ipsissimus]

WoW was not started as a raid centric mmorpg, raiding was anbonus at the end game few people did and most people barely thought about, it became a raid centric mmorpg. Which is fine, but youre just wrong.

It's a good thing I didn't use the word 'started'. WoW was started as an MMORPG in a much simpler engine with much more RPG focused goals. However, during development raiding was made the endgame, max level activity, probably as part of the hopes of drawing people away from EverQuest. They hired Jeff Kaplan for a reason.

Now, before you call me selfish and entitled again keep in my mind that from my perspective there should most certainly be abundant content outside of raids, which should contribute to character progression in a meaningful way. However, this content, if soloable, should not offer rewards equal to or greater than group content. Nor should it be grindable and RNGable the way content is now.

Almost no one in TBC said they had nothing to do.
Almost no one said that they had nothing to do in WotLK before the post-ICC drought.
Almost no one said they had nothing to do in Cataclysm before the post-DS drought.
Almost no one said they had nothing to do in MoP before the post-SoO drought.

The problem is that people have a short memory and only remember WoD where the only content Blizzard added post-launch was a raid instance and a zone, and somehow think that it's the raiders' fault or that it's indicative of Blizzard prioritizing raiders. The simple reason why WoD only had raids is because Blizzard put almost no resources into the expansion, and raids were the cheapest way to give everyone sustainable content. Up until Legion that is where everything is grindable, everything can RNG, and the slot machines are shiny with legendaries.

edit:
To clarify why I'm specifying what happened in prior expansions, there was no actual reason for raiders to be put under the strain and at the mercy of RNG as we have this expansion. It's nothing to do with the needs of many over the needs of the few. The many did fine in proper expansions.

[Tiyr]

Holy shit dude, would you stop? I'll admit that I should have included the source when I posted the picture but that graph isn't showing the number of people killing the last boss in the instance, it's showing how many guilds killed a boss in the instance.

Do you really think that this will make the graph correct? I know it must be hard but at least at least try to use your brain for one moment.

In T11 the graph has less than 1000 guilds in 25-man.

In reality wowprogress has 5180 guilds who were at least 1/13 in T11 25 man:
https://www.wowprogress.com/pve/rati...er11_25#rating

[Relapses]

Do you really think that this will make the graph correct? I know it must be hard but at least at least try to use your brain for one moment.

In T11 the graph has less than 1000 guilds in 25-man.

In reality wowprogress has 5180 guilds who were at least 1/13 in T11 25 man:
https://www.wowprogress.com/pve/rati...er11_25#rating

If you bothered to read the sourced thread where it came from, the information was 1/5th of the total number of guilds. I mean, shit dude, I get that I called your precious 10M raiding the Special Olympics and you might still be recovering from that but please, don't try to deflect an obvious misinterpretation on your part back onto me.

[Grimnakh]

It's a good thing I didn't use the word 'started'. WoW was started as an MMORPG in a much simpler engine with much more RPG focused goals. However, during development raiding was made the endgame, max level activity, probably as part of the hopes of drawing people away from EverQuest. They hired Jeff Kaplan for a reason.

Now, before you call me selfish and entitled again keep in my mind that from my perspective there should most certainly be abundant content outside of raids, which should contribute to character progression in a meaningful way. However, this content, if soloable, should not offer rewards equal to or greater than group content. Nor should it be grindable and RNGable the way content is now.

Almost no one in TBC said they had nothing to do.
Almost no one said that they had nothing to do in WotLK before the post-ICC drought.
Almost no one said they had nothing to do in Cataclysm before the post-DS drought.
Almost no one said they had nothing to do in MoP before the post-SoO drought.

The problem is that people have a short memory and only remember WoD where the only content Blizzard added post-launch was a raid instance and a zone, and somehow think that it's the raiders' fault or that it's indicative of Blizzard prioritizing raiders. The simple reason why WoD only had raids is because Blizzard put almost no resources into the expansion, and raids were the cheapest way to give everyone sustainable content. Up until Legion that is where everything is grindable, everything can RNG, and the slot machines are shiny with legendaries.

Abundant content, that offers "progression" but even very very slowly it cannot be grinded or obtained through rng to be at mythic levels (overall ilvl thats already the case, if you didnt figure it out mythic progression is not about the base ilvl of early and mid raid nh bosses). Ok. Youre saying two completely contradictory things. Meaningful progression means continually being able to improve the power of your character, you cant offer that and have gear walls. Choose. Blizz already know that this system is better for the game's overall health and have chosen. Just because some mythic raiders are butthurt that some nub got an lfr 915 peice out of thousands/10'000's of gear rolls doesnt invalidate the system, it just makes that mythic raider an idiot who doesn't understand exponential probability.

[Tiyr]

the information was 1/5th of the total number of guilds.

Still completely wrong. Seriously, you have to be trolling. No one can be this incredibly ignorant, right?

The actual number of guilds on wowprogress who killed Gunship Battle on 25 heroic was 58877 because it was basically the same fight on heroic as it was on normal:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/21

Also I really like how you've moved the goal posts to this now somehow being about super easy ICC bosses. ICC was out for so long and became so easy that most of it became easily killed even by pugs.

[Relapses]

Still completely wrong. Seriously, you have to be trolling. No one can be this incredibly ignorant, right?

The actual number of guilds on wowprogress who killed Gunship Battle on 25 heroic was 58877 because it was basically the same fight on heroic as it was on normal:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/21

Also I really like how you've moved the goal posts to this now somehow being about super easy ICC bosses. ICC was out for so long and became so easy that most of it became easily killed even by pugs.

You keep accusing me of trolling while completely misinterpreting what's being discussed. I linked that graph not to show the number of guilds who killed the last boss on Heroic or even to show the number of guilds who'd killed a boss on Heroic. It was linked to show the participation of guilds in raid content and how between WotLK and Cata, something happened which had a massive impact on the number of guilds participating in content. (It also had a disproportionately huge impact almost exclusively on larger raid groups.) You keep using statistics about Heroic bosses in an attempt to either disprove or discredit what I'm saying but you've fundamentally misunderstood the purpose of the information I provided. Hell, that graph had absolutely nothing to do with conversation I was having with you so I'm not even sure why you've latched onto it for the last few posts.

That said, I still stand by what I've been saying since the beginning. 10/25M split raiding with gear parity introduced in Cata was one of the worst things Blizzard ever did for the game. And if you compare raid participation levels for entry level bosses to those of 25M guilds during the MoP/Cata era, participation levels have generally increased and remained consistent in WoD/Legion where, as evidenced in the graph I provided, 25M was slowly dying off completely. 10/25M was not sustainable and it's my personal belief that 10M Heroic should have never been introduced in the first place. Again, you can disagree with me on this but you're on the wrong side of history since it's clear Blizzard felt the same way about it that I do.

[Ipsissimus]

Abundant content, that offers "progression" but even very very slowly it cannot be grinded or obtained through rng to be at mythic levels (overall ilvl thats already the case, if you didnt figure it out mythic progression is not about the base ilvl of early and mid raid nh bosses). Ok. Youre saying two completely contradictory things. Meaningful progression means continually being able to improve the power of your character, you cant offer that and have gear walls. Choose. Blizz already know that this system is better for the game's overall health and have chosen. Just because some mythic raiders are butthurt that some nub got an lfr 915 peice out of thousands/10'000's of gear rolls doesnt invalidate the system, it just makes that mythic raider an idiot who doesn't understand exponential probability.

Solo progression should most certainly be capped and stop before difficult group content. It's anMMORPG. It's how WoW has been for 12 years, and it's how I think it should be. You can question what I have figured out, the state of my bottom or whether I understand probability or not all you want. The simple fact is that they fundamentally changed how the game functions 12 years into its lifespan.

Whilst I'm certain there are plenty of people who are happy with the systems in Legion, I can't truly relate to someone being satisfied with his 'progression' manifesting itself in random loot from random content. I play video games as a pastime which stimulates and challenges me, preferably with or against other people for the added facets of competition/cooperation. How can anyone be happy when they're never at risk of failing and are then rewarded better than someone who has done a far more difficult version of the same content? Or when they luck into a BiS legendary they had no control over obtaining beyond increasing their odds of getting *a* legendary?

To me it's very simple. You want to further improve your character? Do harder content, organized with other people. From a PvE standpoint, why on earth would you be playing a raid-centric (from the get go) MMORPG if you have no interest in doing so? Why would your character's progression bother you if you're only here to experience the world itself and the stories told in it?

And yes, Blizzard chose to go a certain way this expansion. But if you're resorting to "Blizzard knows best" then you're simply not interested in having a discussion, which wouldn't be all too surprising given your language and attitude. In a thread about High end raiding no less. Something you very clearly don't engage in, for the simple fact that you do not share the mindset which drives people to do it continuously over the lifespan of the game.

[Tiyr]

You keep using statistics about Heroic bosses in an attempt to either disprove or discredit what I'm saying but you've fundamentally misunderstood the purpose of the information I provided.

What exactly is the information then? That there are fewer guilds who raided heroic 25 in Cata than who killed Gunship? Congratulations, you're right.

It was linked to show the participation of guilds in raid content and how between WotLK and Cata, something happened which had a massive impact on the number of guilds participating in content.

What happened was that Blizzard significantly increased the difficulty.

Most of the bosses in ICC, especially towards the end since the raid was out for so long, were extremely easy and killed by terrible pugs but once you get to end bosses, Sinestra had almost twice as many kills on 25-man heroic than what Lich King did. Blizzard stopped doing the incredibly easy bosses.

Do you not realize how incredibly stupid it seems when you talk down on 10-man MoP guilds calling them "Special Olympics" while talking about the glory days of ICC with a graph about guilds who killed bosses like Gunship? Do you know which was easier, Gunship or 10-man MoP heroic?

Why do you call MoP 10-man guilds "special olympics" while talking about extremely easy bosses in ICC? If you're talking about high-end raiding, why do you think bosses like Gunship are even relevant in the first place?

[glowpipe]

Game is what 12 year old now ? Ofcourse its in a huge decline. And the decline will be steeper and steeper per expansion they release

[Relapses]

What exactly is the information then? That there are fewer guilds who raided heroic 25 in Cata than who killed Gunship? Congratulations, you're right.



What happened was that Blizzard significantly increased the difficulty.

Most of the bosses in ICC, especially towards the end since the raid was out for so long, were extremely easy and killed by terrible pugs but once you get to end bosses, Sinestra had almost twice as many kills on 25-man heroic than what Lich King did. Blizzard stopped doing the incredibly easy bosses.

Do you not realize how incredibly stupid it seems when you talk down on 10-man MoP guilds like Paragon and Exorsus calling them "Special Olympics" while talking about the glory days of ICC with a graph about guilds who killed bosses like Gunship? Do you know which was easier, Gunship or 10-man MoP heroic?

Why do you call MoP 10-man guilds "special olympics" while talking about extremely easy bosses in ICC? If you're talking about high-end raiding, why do you think bosses like Gunship are even relevant in the first place?

Alright, so this is where I take off the internet anonymity mask and admit that yes, I called 10M Heroic raiding the "Special Olympics" just to trigger you. Obviously guilds like Paragon and Exorsus are not bad guilds and have (and did have) some of the best players in the world. But I'm still of the firm belief they didn't go to 10M simply because they wanted to. They did it because the rewards for trying maintain a 25M roster were not worth the effort and doing so would have likely cost them their position as "WF" guilds. (Paragon's main gripe being that they wished to keep communication in Finnish which severely limited the number of players who'd be able to play for them.)

I even raided 10M Heroic for parts of both Cata and MoP. My distaste for 10M isn't for the raids themselves or the difficulty therein (though anybody who raided both should be able to admit many encounters were, generally speaking, easier on 10M*), it's for the endlessly stupid "10 vs. 25M" debates having two raid difficulties presented and the inexorable pitfalls Blizzard faced trying to balance encounters evenly between them. (10M Heroic Garrosh likely being the tipping point.) I think when Blizzard introduced gear parity between 10- and 25M they believed that 10M would remain in the same position it had leading up to T11. When they realized that it nearly wiped out 25M raiding altogether, Blizzard spent the next two expansions trying to incentivize 25M raiding before ultimately realizing it'd never happen. 20M Mythic was a great compromise and I personally feel the game's Mythic raiding scene is better off today than it has been in the last half decade. (Although I will make a concession that the current tuning of M-NH unfairly impacted many casual Mythic raiding guilds.)

*obviously there were exceptions but the very fact that such exceptions exist is part of the reason 10/25M wasn't sustainable

[Grimnakh]

Solo progression should most certainly be capped and stop before difficult group content. It's anMMORPG. It's how WoW has been for 12 years, and it's how I think it should be. You can question what I have figured out, the state of my bottom or whether I understand probability or not all you want. The simple fact is that they fundamentally changed how the game functions 12 years into its lifespan.

Whilst I'm certain there are plenty of people who are happy with the systems in Legion, I can't truly relate to someone being satisfied with his 'progression' manifesting itself in random loot from random content. I play video games as a pastime which stimulates and challenges me, preferably with or against other people for the added facets of competition/cooperation. How can anyone be happy when they're never at risk of failing and are then rewarded better than someone who has done a far more difficult version of the same content? Or when they luck into a BiS legendary they had no control over obtaining beyond increasing their odds of getting *a* legendary?

To me it's very simple. You want to further improve your character? Do harder content, organized with other people. From a PvE standpoint, why on earth would you be playing a raid-centric (from the get go) MMORPG if you have no interest in doing so? Why would your character's progression bother you if you're only here to experience the world itself and the stories told in it?

And yes, Blizzard chose to go a certain way this expansion. But if you're resorting to "Blizzard knows best" then you're simply not interested in having a discussion, which wouldn't be all too surprising given your language and attitude. In a thread about High end raiding no less. Something you very clearly don't engage in, for the simple fact that you do not share the mindset which drives people to do it continuously over the lifespan of the game.

My language is used for meaning, I could use synonyms, but "idiot" works just fine. Being good at the game and being intelligent aren't mutually inclusive.

I'm not taking the position that "Blizzard knows best", my position is I agree with their approach with the TF/WF gearing system. I've advocated essentially the same system since at least BC because I believe it provides the best experience for players in an mmorpg. I think there were major mistakes with legendaries, and that the system/itemization is still flawed but improving. I don't think the expansion is alt/offspec friendly enough. I dont think the incentives and content are good for pvp right now. I also would like high enough mythic plus keys should reward mythic raid base ilvl loot (with a keystone that is equivalently or slightly harder than mythic raid), same with pvp rewards, they should scale at the too end to mythic raid base ilvl as long as the number of players who can get that is a similar fraction with the same time investment as an avg mythic raider. I like the AP system, I like the 7.2 version even more.

I dont agree with the restrictions on cross realm mythic raiding or raid locks, lockouts should be per boss (unable to engage after killing the forst time each week). All loot should be personal and all bops untradeable under all circumstances to prevent split raids and excessive carrying.

Its not anraid centric game, its a raid supporting game, and the rewards for doing the highest difficulty content are more than generous enough.

There has been no fundamental change, except from wod and classic, the rest of the expansions had a relatively similar grind requirement and reward gap between content difficulties.

If youre clearing 3/10 mythic you get quite a bit better overall gear than if youre only clearing herioc, if youre clearing the whole raid every week youre getting much better gear overall. As long as you keep playing/clearing raida the gap between you and people doing less challenging content will remain steady because youre getting better wf/tf than they are (again, math) assuming youve put in the minimal time needed to get to 54 traits in one spec on one character. There are cases of poorly unbalanced legendary itemization, which should be adjusted, but the rest of the system is working beautifully.

[Ipsissimus]

I'm glad that you're finally expressing your opinions rather than just assaulting people's character or intelligence over their own.

Now, the chasm separating our viewpoints aside...

There has been no fundamental change, except from wod and classic, the rest of the expansions had a relatively similar grind requirement and reward gap between content difficulties.

Is simply a dishonest thing to say. I suspect that you don't actually have much experience engaging in raids, ranked PvP or now high level M+. I don't mean to insult you, but you simply come off as an outsider to any of said sub-communities in the game. Bar perhaps the last one, I admit that I haven't done much beyond ~+17 because I don't find the infinitely scaling system appropriate to WoW and the rewards cap off sooner.

Furthermore, It's difficult to find an interest to respond to specific suggestions and ideas and explain what the problems with some of them are when I'm uncertain whether you're sincere or not. You see, I'm very hesitant to assume someone is lacking in intelligence. Oh well.

[Tiberria]

This has to be the funniest shit I've ever seen.

You've been talking about the 10-man "special olympics", then you post a graph to support your fucked up arguments and guess what genius? Your graph is wrong in the funniest way possible.

The only place I've found that graph claims that the data is from wowprogress, no other information:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post34375583

The graph lists about 5000-something guilds who killed heroic Lich King, hard to tell exactly since the scales are fucked (probably because whoever made it didn't really know what they were doing).

However if we actually check wowprogress it lists only 1101 guilds:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4584

Huh, weird.. Where might the 5000-something number come from?

Oh yeah, that's the number of guilds who killed him on 10-man:
https://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4583

You tried one single time to actually post something factual and you failed even worse than what I thought would even have been possible.

The problem with those graphs is they overstate raid participation in WoTLK because 10 man was not considered a legitimate/seperate progression path with the lower gear and split lockouts. 25 man guilds would all clear 10 man, because they needed the unique loot, etc. You can only start counting the 10 man numbers as a legitimate component of people progressing starting in Cata.

[Magnagarde]

Mythic doesn't have much to do with being good at this game(you'd expect someone to be able to pull their class of properly with all the guides, videos and instructions all over the internet, right?). You got addons guiding you, you got pre-determined tactics most of the time that were proven to work and you just have to follow a pattern. It's more about willpower and endurace to wipe time and time again while progressing. Burnouts can hit in pretty quickly.

[ali725]

I just looked some facts and I found high end raiding isn't as popular anymore. Is content too hard or do WoW have much less subs nowadays?

https://www.wowprogress.com/boss/kil...36#first_kills

In link above you can see about 5 and half months around 2000 guilds killed Kil'jaeden

https://www.wowprogress.com/encounte.../next/20#first

And here you can see in 5 months only ~430 guilds killed Archimonde mythic. Both are final bosses of their expansion and still gap is that huge. Should they make mythic raiding more casual friendly?

reason its like that i think is because your using Kiljaeden data from sunwell which if i remember correctly they released that patch right before WoTLK so not too much people gave him attempts yet.