Sargeras is not on/near Argus

[Grimfrost]

I think he is the planet aswel... i mean where else could he be?

[purebalance]

Right now, Sargeras is basically like Voldemort was just before and during Philosopher's Stone. He's a disembodied soul that requires a host to do anything. Unlike Voldemort, he did this on purpose by pouring his entire soul into the Avatar, then throwing his fight with Aegwynn to possess her, then Medivh after. When the Guardian was killed, Sargeras was left without a body, thanks to Aegwynn's enchantments on the Tomb. He's been stuck this way for pretty much all of Warcraft's history. What we're seeing a projection of him; we know the Legion has very advanced hologram technomagic. It's most likely that Kil'jaeden is speaking to the actual soul of Sargeras, which is being held in containment to keep it from dispersing.

There is 0 lore supporting that. Provide sources please. His literal body did not die because the avatar did.

[Ealyssa]

Sargeras 100% is on/in Argus.

As proved by the Guldan fight (where he want the body of Illidan, and the rift is open to Argus) and by this cinematic. He really has no reason to be anywhere else.

[Deleted]

That is literally 100% impossible. Sargeras is Sargeras, not Argus. He was already a Titan when he found Argus and corrupted the eredar.

Also, the titans are the worlds.

Now, it's possible that Argus had a World Soul of its own, and it's maybe even possible that Sargeras will possess it to regain his physical form. But... if he can just hijack Argus and transform it into a new Titan body, why would he try and possess Illidan's body in Nighthold? Why would he wait this long?

If Argus had a World Soul on its own, Sargy would kill it for sure. Also, he wanted to possess Illidan because Azeroth is too far away from him, and he is already corrupted by fel. He can't just enter anybody and walk through the portal. And wait how long? He can't just enter your mind from millions of light years. He needed someone to make preparations. Guldan in this case.

It also seems unlikely that Azeroth will ever become a Titan. Dave Kosak, before leaving the WoW team to work on Hearthstone, basically said that he viewed Azeroth as stillborn and that her power has infused the denizens of the world, effectively making the players the "Final Titan."

Hearthstone is non canon and, that was mentionen so many times im already tired of this, Dave Kosak knows nothing of lore and usually tells bullsh*t.

[Kathranis]

Hearthstone is non canon and, that was mentionen so many times im already tired of this, Dave Kosak knows nothing of lore and usually tells bullsh*t.

Dave Kosak was the lead narrative designer on WoW until just a few months ago, buddy.

"As Blizzard Entertainment's lead narrative designer for World of Warcraft, Dave Kosak works with multiple teams to help create the overarching story vision for the franchise, and then works to see this vision implemented into the living game world."

Yeah, you're right, his thoughts totally have no bearing on the lore. Sure.

[Deleted]

Dave Kosak was the lead narrative designer on WoW until just a few months ago, buddy.

"As Blizzard Entertainment's lead narrative designer for World of Warcraft, Dave Kosak works with multiple teams to help create the overarching story vision for the franchise, and then works to see this vision implemented into the living game world."

Yeah, you're right, his thoughts totally have no bearing on the lore. Sure.

Ohh Fuk me, even tho we both said Dave Kosak i had Alex Afrasiabi in my mind. Geez, sorry.

[Selastan]

You know, it strikes me as odd that Illidan would want to possess ANYONE, it wouldn't make that much of a difference. The thing is, Sargeras is powerful, like really REALY powerful... but he sucks. He sucks HARD. When he was in complete control of Medivh, he had to suck the life out of EVERYTHING in Deadwind pass to beat Aegwynn, who at this point is miles behind Medivh on the power level scale, having sacrificed all of her Guardian power and much of her own into Medivh. He also isn't able to fend off Khadgar and Lothar's assault, costing him his chance to conquer Azeroth. When he is in control of someone else's magics, even someone as strong as Medivh, he just sucks. He can't do 10% of what that person could do on their own. I bet that I, personally, the fatty typing on his computer, could beat Sargeras if we were on the same magical scale. The ONLY thing he has going for him is his massive titanic presence and command of the fel.

[Dagoth Ur]

Hehe I mean practically speaking, Sargeras has only fought one fight in his entire level; against the pantheon. Everything else was pretty much him swatting flies. He has nearly no valuable combat experience.

Defeating the Aldrachi champion with his avatar is pretty significat achievement. Also there's probably a tons of fights that we just don't know of.
(This assumes that his avatar is on pair with the guys he's fighting)

I think you guys don't give him enough credit :P

[SoulSoBreezy]

Sargeras 100% is on/in Argus.

As proved by the Guldan fight (where he want the body of Illidan, and the rift is open to Argus) and by this cinematic. He really has no reason to be anywhere else.

I disagree.
Argus is on the border between the Twisting Nether (where at best, Sargeras was "banished" to, can't say for sure what the literal meaning is) and the Great Dark Beyond. Assuming Sargeras is in the physical vicinity, we can conclude that Sargeras can project part of himself pretty easily (using the scepter of Sargeras to take his avatar to Azeroth long ago).

As for being in or on Argus, nope.
Sargeras still has the physical characteristics of a Titan, in that he's big as fuck. As in he projects his own gravity. As in like the other Titans, direct contact with a planet causes huge damage. And maybe Sargeras did at some point, seeing as how the planet looks now. But so far there's been no evidence of a Titan being able to dematerialize their physical bodies and insert themselves inside a planet.

I did a piece that talks about this subject as well as a more tactical look on how to combat the Legion (and what's probably the best case scenario):

[Friendlyimmolation]

He was a gnat to Sargeras, he was just toying with him. There is nothing in the universe that would cause any strain to Sargeras and you don't learn if you are not pushed.

Sargeras is an omnipotent baby used to be in complete control of reality (all the titans are). The moment he realized something could possibly harm him, he went crazy and wanted to wipe out reality instead of trying to deal with things as an adult because he cannot even conceive of a reality in which he is not in absolute control.

I mean Sargeras' reaction is as if the US after Hiroshima decided to nuke every single state on the planet and commit global genocide so noone could ever nuke them. He is the definition of infantile omnipotence; all the titans are to some extent (they are gods, it comes with the title)

Sargeras Didn't want the universe completely erased from existence. Its more than "not being in control" atleast in Sargeras' mind, life could recover when he is done.

[Dagoth Ur]

He was a gnat to Sargeras, he was just toying with him. There is nothing in the universe that would cause any strain to Sargeras and you don't learn if you are not pushed.

Sargeras is an omnipotent baby used to be in complete control of reality (all the titans are). The moment he realized something could possibly harm him, he went crazy and wanted to wipe out reality instead of trying to deal with things as an adult because he cannot even conceive of a reality in which he is not in absolute control.

I mean Sargeras' reaction is as if the US after Hiroshima decided to nuke every single state on the planet and commit global genocide so noone could ever nuke them. He is the definition of infantile omnipotence; all the titans are to some extent (they are gods, it comes with the title)

Haha you changed my view on him with this. It would be really cool if they explore this control freak side of him more.

Also not sure if it's lore accurate but I always assumed that when using avatar Sargeras' power is greatly watered down and he's on pair with maybe Archimonde & KJ probably a little above.
I though that when Legion is invading some world Sargeras' titan form can't reach they summon his avatar to lead the charge. So not sure how it really works but he probably has a lot of combat experience through his avatar, assuming fully functional avatar is not so op that he can't find a somewhat fair fight.

But yeah when in titan form there's probably no combat just cleaving planets xD

[purebalance]

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...3885b275a9af07

Straight from the Chronicles book. Full Titan form Sargeras literally cutting a planet in half with one go.

Also his brother, Aman'thul, ripped an Old God out of Azeroth like you and I would rip out a tick.

He had tweezers? That implies a tick. He did it with his hands. We also don't know how big Azeroth is compared to the planet Sargeras cut in half. You're assuming all planets are the same size which is definitely stupid which also implies that not all titans are the same size.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Indeed, I mean if that planet is about as large as Earth, he'd have a hard time cleaving Jupiter in half (he wouldn't even be able to reach the core)

In which case he could just fel blast it.

[purebalance]

In which case he could just fel blast it.

Well the theories about Jupiter actually being a star that didn't fully develop could hinder that. Unless we're talking an earth-like planet Jupiter sized.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well the theories about Jupiter actually being a star that didn't fully develop could hinder that. Unless we're talking an earth-like planet Jupiter sized.

if its a actual jupiter I doubt anything would live on it anyways, or he could add fel to its storms and kill everything that way.


Edit: or if capable Sarg could just add enough energy for the planet to turn into a star, but in a planet like Jupitars case, it would be a fuck ton.

[DarkTZeratul]

I beg you to differ:
Kael’thas died. We looted his corpse and he got rezzed out of nowhere for some lame dungeon ending. This is also the source of ‘merely a setback’, Kael quoted this himself.

You clearly didn't loot him hard enough then, because the quest item he drops (and always has dropped, they didn't add it for 2.4) summons him into Shattrath to explicitly tell everyone in the city that he's not dead and that Kil'jaeden is coming.

[Deleted]

You clearly didn't loot him hard enough then, because the quest item he drops (and always has dropped, they didn't add it for 2.4) summons him into Shattrath to explicitly tell everyone in the city that he's not dead and that Kil'jaeden is coming.

that’s pure hairsplitting. Kael’thas was just alive because he got rescued by some at that time unknown demon priestress. And it doesn’t make my point invalid anyway.

Did bringing Kael’thas back in anyway influence the main story?
No it did not. Heck, there could be any other NPC as a final boss for Magister’s Terrace and even the dungeon itself. It was packed full of enemies, though they weren’t doing anything really.
Did it develop Kael’thas story or character?
No it did not. We already knew he was siding with the Legion long before we faced him for the first time. We already knew he was power hungry and would do anything to gain more.

If anything he should’ve brought back for a redemption story setting past his fight in The Eye like:
He was heavily wounded, Rommath takes over and finishes the job (basicly everything Kael’thas did after his revival). Kael’thas realizes what it meant siding with the Legion and regretting everything he did in Outland, becoming the faction leader again.

[cparle87]

Did bringing Kael’thas back in anyway influence the main story?
No it did not. Heck, there could be any other NPC as a final boss for Magister’s Terrace and even the dungeon itself. It was packed full of enemies, though they weren’t doing anything really.
Did it develop Kael’thas story or character?
No it did not. We already knew he was siding with the Legion long before we faced him for the first time. We already knew he was power hungry and would do anything to gain more.

Actually it did influence the story to bring Kael'thas back. To side with the Legion in some distant world is one thing, but to attack your own city to steal something back your people desperately needed, that you originally gave them no less, is something totally different. Read the short story "In the Shadow of the Sun" sometime. Centers around Lor'themar in very early Wrath. It was also Kael leading all the Sunfury and felblood elves at Quel'danas. No matter how messed up those blood elves were, I can't figure all of them would be willing to attack their own city unless their Prince was there giving the order.

Though I must admit I'm a sucker for a good redemption story. I found this good one a long while ago, talking about how Warcraft would be different in Kael'thas didn't go 'to hell with the Alliance' and side with Vashj and later Illidan after being imprisoned in Dalaran.

[Deleted]

Actually it did influence the story to bring Kael'thas back. To side with the Legion in some distant world is one thing, but to attack your own city to steal something back your people desperately needed, that you originally gave them no less, is something totally different.

Correct me, but didn’t Kael’thas forces attack playable bloodelves, Horde and Alliance alike? At least in Netherstorm? He probably considered them and Quel’thalas as traitors. and his blood knights wouldn’t need to drain M’uru further if Kil'Jaeden gave them limitless demonic power.

[steelballfc]

Actually it did influence the story to bring Kael'thas back. To side with the Legion in some distant world is one thing, but to attack your own city to steal something back your people desperately needed, that you originally gave them no less, is something totally different. Read the short story "In the Shadow of the Sun" sometime. Centers around Lor'themar in very early Wrath. It was also Kael leading all the Sunfury and felblood elves at Quel'danas. No matter how messed up those blood elves were, I can't figure all of them would be willing to attack their own city unless their Prince was there giving the order.

Though I must admit I'm a sucker for a good redemption story. I found this good one a long while ago, talking about how Warcraft would be different in Kael'thas didn't go 'to hell with the Alliance' and side with Vashj and later Illidan after being imprisoned in Dalaran.

plus this story backed up 2 more stories
1- the blood elf cleans
2-it gave the blood elf's more reason to stay with the horde