European Union states reaffirm committment to united Europe

[NED funded]

Obviously hyperbolie on my part, but do you think the countries 5-10 million people will have a huge say against Germany with ~80mil?

They actually have. I recall certain treaty being blocked because a small region in belgium.

[Deleted]

Obviously hyperbolie on my part, but do you think the countries 5-10 million people will have a huge say against Germany with ~80mil?

yes. eu is not only germany. france and italy got more than 60m, spain around 50m, poland 40m. and every state, from the biggest to the smallest, have a say.

[Acidbaron]

Obviously hyperbolie on my part, but do you think the countries 5-10 million people will have a huge say against Germany with ~80mil?

To begin i present you this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apport...ean_Parliament

This is me excluding veto rights and other things in place, Germany can't decide things on their own they need a majority, they are a large block but they are not a majority on their own.
Next up you have to understand that the european parliament much like european governments aren't divided by country but by group they belong to regards their political ideology. So we need understand this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament.

Also the chairs of said parties within the EU aren't all from large countries either. But those people are the law makers that sit in there. The reason everything goes so slowly in the EU is because there are that many voices within it. Germany would like in some cases they hold all the cards but they don't.

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They actually have. I recall certain treaty being blocked because a small region in belgium.

That had more to do with how Belgium is politically designed (you can enforce a sort of minority rule on some level). But yes a single country can block a major thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...-deal-forcing/

[NED funded]

Having extensively googled your claim I cannot come up with any citation for Haidt saying "Creationism is correct." or anything of the sort. You seem to be talking out of your ass.

That book by the way is very good and argues nothing of the sort.

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I'm highly skeptical of anyone's ability to ensure "All is well and will be well for 400 years." Unless you are about to confess to knowing genuine psychics I call bullshit. Stagnation is a problematic term because it again falls into that same paradigm of just saying "Forward". It is relentlessly one dimensional thinking.

I sited someone who said risks are usually dangerous. Populism is usually a risk taken when faced with perceived annihilation. When the current leadership seems set to ruin something sacred, taking a risk to try and save that thing seems better than doing nothing at all.

1. Uaagh, there is this guy (I can't recall his name)that constantly writes about how our growth based system is bound to fail, because complex systems need an ever growing amount of energy. His prediction was that in around four hundred years (if energy demand continue to grow at this rate), energy demand would be so high that it would be nearly unsustainable. He like writes about how each source of energy would fail eventually as well. Can't remember his name.

2. This is odd to me, because stasis usually led to the situations that foster populists.

[Nigel Tufnel]

"Europe of different speeds" is exactly what we need, more than ever.

I’m not sure where you found a “Europe of different speeds” sentiment in that statement? Or were you stating what *you* think Europe needs?

I mean, I completely agree with said sentiment, apart from the fact that a) for the UK it’s obviously far too late and b) everything in that god-awful statement that reads like some spotty, virgin, student, Socialist Worker’s election manifesto is completely at odds with the notion of a “Europe of different speeds”. They’re still charging headlong down the “one speed suits all” path.

What are they thinking with this? It just reinforces how out of touch they are. Wilders may have lost in the Netherlands and Le Pen will probably lose in May, but there are clear sections of the European electorate who are simply not interested in the promotion of e.g., “cultural diversity”. They are burying their heads in the sand.

“A Union promoting sustained and sustainable growth”

Que? What if x country were to elect some right wing government that doesn’t give a fuck about sustainable growth? What’s the EU going to do? Wag it’s finger? Legislate?

They haven’t learnt from the disaster that is Brexit, they’ve failed to react sanely to the aftermath. They’re a bunch of loonie lefties trying to impose on Europe a centralised power that a large number of people simply don't want.

[Acidbaron]

I’m not sure where you found a “Europe of different speeds” sentiment in that statement? Or were you stating what *you* think Europe needs?

I mean, I completely agree with said sentiment, apart from the fact that a) for the UK it’s obviously far too late and b) everything in that god-awful statement that reads like some spotty, virgin, student, Socialist Worker’s election manifesto is completely at odds with the notion of a “Europe of different speeds”. They’re still charging headlong down the “one speed suits all” path.

What are they thinking with this? It just reinforces how out of touch they are. Wilders may have lost in the Netherlands and Le Pen will probably lose in May, but there are clear sections of the European electorate who are simply not interested in the promotion of e.g., “cultural diversity”. They are burying their heads in the sand.

“A Union promoting sustained and sustainable growth”

Que? What if x country were to elect some right wing government that doesn’t give a fuck about sustainable growth? What’s the EU going to do? Wag it’s finger? Legislate?

They haven’t learnt from the disaster that is Brexit, they’ve failed to react sanely to the aftermath. They’re a bunch of loonie lefties trying to impose on Europe a centralised power that a large number of people simply don't want.

The majority in power in the EU are centrum right. Not left.

You also presented a great argument for a more federal europe, not less i hope you realize that.

[Malacrass]

I’m not sure where you found a “Europe of different speeds” sentiment in that statement? Or were you stating what *you* think Europe needs?

I mean, I completely agree with said sentiment, apart from the fact that a) for the UK it’s obviously far too late and b) everything in that god-awful statement that reads like some spotty, virgin, student, Socialist Worker’s election manifesto is completely at odds with the notion of a “Europe of different speeds”. They’re still charging headlong down the “one speed suits all” path.

A Europe of different speeds is already a reality in many areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-speed_Europe

And the big nations are behind the idea to keep it that way in order to get things done.
https://euobserver.com/news/137134

As for the rome declaration:

To move ahead, the EU leaders recognized that full unity on all things will be unworkable. Pushed by several western European nations, they enshrined a pledge to give member nations more freedom to form partial alliances and set policy when unanimity is out of reach.

"We will act together, at different paces and intensity where necessary, while moving in the same direction," said the Rome Declaration signed by the 27 nations.

[Nigel Tufnel]

The majority in power in the EU are centrum right. Not left.

You also presented a great argument for a more federal europe, not less i hope you realize that.

You think that statement is reflective of the views of the center right? Re-read it.

And of course I realise how you would interpret any criticism of a federal Europe as a supportive of nationalism because that is exactly how your personal political outlook dictates you would. It's exactly that sort of patronising attitude that has caused Brexit. Instead of dealing with people's *irrational* fears sensibly, they were ignored. Result: disaster? /clap Go patronise someone else.

[Acidbaron]

You think that statement is reflective of the views of the center right? Re-read it.

And of course I realise how you would interpret any criticism of a federal Europe as a supportive of nationalism because that is exactly how your personal political outlook dictates you would. It's exactly that sort of patronising attitude that has caused Brexit. Instead of dealing with people's *irrational* fears sensibly, they were ignored. Result: disaster? /clap Go patronise someone else.

You believe i was patronizing you already? No, if i wanted to do that i would have taken a few jabs at how you're playing the victim role.

Nothing that could be said or done would have prevented a Brexit, the political landscape in the UK has made it a sport to blame everything on the EU that is bad and the brexit camp even went as far as saying a brexit would give more money to things like the NHS. Also you just made a few posts of me back where i literally stated the EU needs a better information campaign to deal with said misinformation.

The reason why your example leads to a more federal europe is that you pointed out how a single nation might be able to prevent certain laws from being put in place due to a small obstructionist block of far right ideology.

That statement fits perfectly in the line of the conservative liberal ideology. You are aware that being right or conservative like i identity myself with and you may even know my political party, is one that flat out is against a more federal europe or against a more diverse population. Not at all, assuming that's what you're hinting at you're free to bring up more specific example so i don't have to speculate what you think isn't part of that ideology.

[Kalis]

You also presented a great argument for a more federal europe, not less i hope you realize that.

When people in the EU are unhappy with the EU, what they clearly need is more EU.

[Acidbaron]

When people in the EU are unhappy with the EU, what they clearly need is more EU.

Oh look a brexiteer with a one liner that is completely missing the point, how new and refreshing!

Rather easy to play that silly game of reducing statements to one liners, you're free to play it but i'm not playing along

[Kalis]

Oh look a brexiteer with a one liner that is completely missing the point, how new and refreshing!

A Brexiteer who voted Remain.

[Nigel Tufnel]

You believe i was patronizing you already? No, if i wanted to do that i would have taken a few jabs at how you're playing the victim role.

How am I playing the role of the victim? I don’t believe that Brexit was sensible and I voted Remain, however, I was and still am critical of the EU and the direction the Council are taking. Do I believe that Brexit could have been avoided by better governance in the UK (e.g., Cameron not playing party politics) and better direction from Brussels? Yes. How is that “playing the victim”?

Nothing that could be said or done would have prevented a Brexit, the political landscape in the UK has made it a sport to blame everything on the EU that is bad and the brexit camp even went as far as saying a brexit would give more money to things like the NHS. Also you just made a few posts of me back where i literally stated the EU needs a better information campaign to deal with said misinformation.

I disagree with this. Leave won by a 52 – 48, just over a million people. This was not a rejection of the EU as you’re framing it. It’s like the split in the press: not all of us read the Daily Mail, you know.

When people in the EU are unhappy with the EU, what they clearly need is more EU.

Thank you – exactly this.

[Acidbaron]

A Brexiteer who voted Remain.

That's what you say, yet to see a major difference between you and others in that camp, ideologically that is.

[Kalis]

That's what you say, yet to see a major difference between you and others in that camp, ideologically that is.

It is a fairly standard position even amongst people who favoured keeping EU membership, that the whole thing needed a swift kick in the knackers, followed by major reforms.

British people who are uncritical of the EU are rarer than rocking horse shit.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Oh look a brexiteer with a one liner that is completely missing the point, how new and refreshing!

Rather easy to play that silly game of reducing statements to one liners, you're free to play it but i'm not playing along

No - what Kalis did there was summarise my waffle. And the "one liner" is spot on.

[Noradin]

Obviously hyperbolie on my part, but do you think the countries 5-10 million people will have a huge say against Germany with ~80mil?

Smaller countries have more of a say per capita in the EU than Germany does.

[Acidbaron]

How am I playing the role of the victim? I don’t believe that Brexit was sensible and I voted Remain, however, I was and still am critical of the EU and the direction the Council are taking. Do I believe that Brexit could have been avoided by better governance in the UK (e.g., Cameron not playing party politics) and better direction from Brussels? Yes. How is that “playing the victim”?



I disagree with this. Leave won by a 52 – 48, just over a million people. This was not a rejection of the EU as you’re framing it. It’s like the split in the press: not all of us read the Daily Mail, you know.

You were claiming you were being patronized, while i was doing no such thing that's why you were taken on a victim role. Not to mention you made an assumption about "my kind" and i dare to say you can't even name the party i'm in support of (Hell i dare say you can't even guess the European party mine belongs to), that i would reduce any and all criticism to nationalism.

I'll rephrase, nothing that said or could be done on the end of the EU would have prevented a Brexit. Local politicians demonized the EU to become god knows what and the world was promised to the camp who voted out. A small win to exit is still a win, your nation set up those rules regarding the vote not Brussels or Lisbon.
The EU as far i recall tried to do several things to prevent the Brexit, i think it's fair to say that Cameron fucked up and enough people believed the cowardice Farrage which is nowhere to be seen anymore now that a Brexit is actually happening.

I'll repeat it once more your notion that a fringe party could block something in the EU is a good argument for a more federal Europe.

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It is a fairly standard position even amongst people who favoured keeping EU membership, that the whole thing needed a swift kick in the knackers, followed by major reforms.

British people who are uncritical of the EU are rarer than rocking horse shit.

A reform to what? A pure economic coalition? That's never going to happen too many things are tied together and there are so many regulations in place that are now EU Wide to undo that all would be pure madness and simply but us decades back. Not to mention with Russia being all that more interested to return the EU into nothing more then a combined marketplace, i rather pass on that option being the grand child of migrant of a former sovjet controlled state.

Not to mention all that noise from the brexit camp or about eastern europeans and the economic migration to the UK, it was your own damn PM that caused that eastern expansion not to mention if he had his way Turkey would be part of us also. Or did you forget mr Blair?

So i find that stance to be highly hypocritical of the brits.

[Martymark]

Well, they super failed #1.

[SupBrah]

Smaller countries have more of a say per capita in the EU than Germany does.

Till you realize they just agree with Germany on almsot anything Germany asks or does because Germany gives them money.