Thread: About sim...

  1. #1

    About sim...

    Hello guys ,
    i made this post because whenever some is asking something related to gear the answer is ...SIM IT. Am i the onlyone feeling dissapointed about the whole sim thing? Everyone is talking about this thing like its the holy grail of wow and as usual everyone want everything maxxed out without trying...We used to try the gear/talents and see if it was better or worse and talk in fora about it but now it all comes to a stupid sim... Maybe im a bit nostalgic about the past but this whole sim thing makes me feel that we losing a big part of the game that it was the experimentation.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire chase_the_mofo's Avatar
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    Well game lost all common sense for most classes all it matters is higher item level sadly.
    SIMCRAFT is potato, calculates in perfect world and no such thing as patchwerk fight, too much movement and rng is involved so lool what suits you best and use it.
    Higher item lvl is win 99% of the time.
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  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Hottage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chase_the_mofo View Post
    Well game lost all common sense for most classes all it matters is higher item level sadly.
    SIMCRAFT is potato, calculates in perfect world and no such thing as patchwerk fight, too much movement and rng is involved so lool what suits you best and use it.
    Higher item lvl is win 99% of the time.
    AskMrRobot has a few "real fight" sims setup (Spellblade and Krosus) which give more realistic expectations of your sim.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by chase_the_mofo View Post
    Well game lost all common sense for most classes all it matters is higher item level sadly.
    SIMCRAFT is potato, calculates in perfect world and no such thing as patchwerk fight, too much movement and rng is involved so lool what suits you best and use it.
    Higher item lvl is win 99% of the time.
    If you want to answer what is the best, there is no better way than to sim it (asuming apl are correct). Seems you don't know that sims are not just for patchwerk fights?
    For most classes, ilvl is NOT the most important unless there is a big difference, even less so when it comes to trinkets and relics.

    For OP:
    Just trying something out will give a variation of the result between attempts, and even more variation between different players and their various attempts.
    However, if you're fine with not optimizing gameplay then don't sim, just go try out what you feel works best for you and be happy with that.

  5. #5
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    "Try it out" is not an objective measurement what so ever.

    If you want to measure the change, you need to get to the target dummy and log it, then analyze the results. After having done that, you can also go raiding and get results from real encounters, then analyze them.

    But if you really want to get into it, you need more samples then one raid.

    Thats where simming it comes into play. Of course sims aren#t perfect. But most often, sims give you a better idea if the item might be an upgrade then "trying it out". because most people have no idea how to actually do decent testing on their own.

  6. #6
    When someone asks which item is better telling them to sim is the easiest and most accurate. To really answer that question you would to know a lot of information like their current gear, food buff, what pot they use, do they mean AoE, cleave or ST, what talent and rotation do they use.

    It just becomes impossible, especially when the question is like do I wear this armor pieces which is 5 ilvs higher or do I use this one which has a gem slot? In that case the difference is so small that you will never notice it in game anyway. That leaves simcraft to give them the only satisfactory answer because people mindlessly believe a computer. Computer says NO.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chase_the_mofo View Post
    Well game lost all common sense for most classes all it matters is higher item level sadly.
    SIMCRAFT is potato, calculates in perfect world and no such thing as patchwerk fight, too much movement and rng is involved so lool what suits you best and use it.
    Higher item lvl is win 99% of the time.
    SimulationCraft is a pretty advanced tool. Get in deep and it can simulate pretty much any type of fight, not just patchwerk. It can also take into account player skill and lag.
    "In life, I was raised to hate the undead. Trained to destroy them. When I became Forsaken, I hated myself most of all. But now I see it is the Alliance that fosters this malice. The human kingdoms shun their former brothers and sisters because we remind them what's lurking beneath the facade of flesh. It's time to end their cycle of hatred. The Alliance deserves to fall." - Lilian Voss

  8. #8
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    the rotations of every class are way too simple for any testing to be needed.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakkiki View Post
    We used to try the gear/talents and see if it was better or worse and talk in fora about it but now it all comes to a stupid sim... Maybe im a bit nostalgic about the past but this whole sim thing makes me feel that we losing a big part of the game that it was the experimentation.
    Maybe you did that but I'm pretty sure most serious raiders did proper theorycrafting with either pen and paper, the tools available at the time or in most cases both. If they didn't have the tools available, they made them themselves.

  10. #10
    While as everyone says that simcraft does patchwerk fights which is never real, it is ok to use if you want to compare stuff. You might have 2 "fake" dps sims but you can see which item does more damage in a perfect fight, so it might be better in a not perfect fight too. Obviously there are many more parameters to count for, such us how the item works for adds etc, but it is a descent rough estimate, and probably better than trying to see through use which one is better.

  11. #11
    As a few people already mentioned: trying it out in game isn't definitive. Any attempt can be +/- about 30k DPS for most classes. So if you would do 600k on average, 65% of your attempts would be between 570k and 630k. The other 35% would be within 540k and 670k.

    Simulation and game trials go hand-in-hand, imo. They compliment each other really well - using the simulator to test out theories and then try it in game.

    You can even get really specific with bosses, using our Krosus and Spellblade scripts. I even did a writeup yesterday to show just how accurate our sims are for Krosus.

    You can see in that writeup how even a small change in play, that came from analyzing in-game play, let's us quantify how much of a difference these small things make. When Fury Warriors stay in on the bridge breaks 2 seconds longer than other classes, and heroic leap out, they are able to keep the Juggernaut buff stacks up (which buffs execute). When we tested that in the simulator, it accounted for 20k DPS (3%). I think that is very useful information, because it can help other players learn how to min/max their DPS.
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