Arena ruined PvP

[Saberstrike]

MoP in general was awful because it was another extreme entirely. Now we have dumb and boring 'nothing but damage' playstyle. MoP was largely 'nothing but cc' playstyle. Blizz is incapable of solving one problem without making another take it's place. CC was bad, wizards tankiness was bad, and casting on the move was bad. But 'remove it all and just give people more damage' wasn't really the solution.

Like yeah, they fixed MOP problem. In the same way as blowing up your house fixes your rat problem. I personally hated arena in MOP because it was all about immortal hybrids & legendary wizards ccing people for up to 45 seconds (priest / hunter / druid... <shivers>). Now everyone is a legendary wizard, and while CC isnt as much of an annoyance it is still very difficult to kill hybrids. Rag all you want on demon hunters but at least a demon hunter destroys one target, whereas a moonkin if left alone for 5 seconds can decimate your entire team.

[Satelliteyears0o]

arenas were awesome when the classes had depth, before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited

classes had depth? a lot of specs couldnt arena in bc cuz they werent viable at all. PvP right now allows most if not ALL specs to have a place in some comp or another. I got glad in season 2, the rush of the 'arena' fight format was new and exciting for a little but then the glaring imbalances reared their ugly head. Back then, (since i played restodrood), enemy teams could use resist gear and pretty much negate roots which was very important back then aside from cloning. Having a CC get resisted was extremely detrimental at high rated, one slip up could cost u hours of grinding pennies for rating and you lose that hour. It still is sort of like that, but you can easily cruise to glad range without really facing terrible rating gain decreases.

PVP right now has evolved so much now you need to be better than u were in BC and then some to even compete with these kids now filling in the void of the people they looked up to and learned from. That is all apart from the games mechanics changing and class revamps n stuff which kind of gives people a chance to catch up to the meta. That is what separates mediocre players who are more inclined to be casual and play to chill than the obsessive ones who HAVE to overcompensate to get the sense of acknowledgement they yearn for in the end. For attention: that is what it is all about.

I respect your opinion, and perhaps I have provided, if anything at least, an intriguing perspective.

[Queen of Hamsters]

And instanced PVP ruined world PVP. Doesn't stop people from partaking though.

[shoegazing]

MoP in general was awful because it was another extreme entirely. Now we have dumb and boring 'nothing but damage' playstyle. MoP was largely 'nothing but cc' playstyle. Blizz is incapable of solving one problem without making another take it's place. CC was bad, wizards tankiness was bad, and casting on the move was bad. But 'remove it all and just give people more damage' wasn't really the solution.

Like yeah, they fixed MOP problem. In the same way as blowing up your house fixes your rat problem. I personally hated arena in MOP because it was all about immortal hybrids & legendary wizards ccing people for up to 45 seconds (priest / hunter / druid... <shivers>). Now everyone is a legendary wizard, and while CC isnt as much of an annoyance it is still very difficult to kill hybrids. Rag all you want on demon hunters but at least a demon hunter destroys one target, whereas a moonkin if left alone for 5 seconds can decimate your entire team.

the only problem with CC in MoP was that defensive dispels were put on an 8 second cooldown for some dumbass (probably PvE related) reason that still doesn't make sense to me

the amount of CC in the game in MoP was roughly the same as what it was in Wrath and Cata, it's just that in those expansions you had to coordinate cross CC on multiple targets to prevent them from getting dispelled while in MoP you could just spam all your CC into a single target and the healer will never be able to dispel it all. "can you fear healer so i can sheep shaman" turned into "spamming sheep on shaman 3x and only the 1st one gets dispelled, now i'm rooting him, oh that got dispelled so can you fear him now and he'll be forced to sit in it?"

the amount of CC was the same but it felt like A LOT more because your healer was only able to dispel you out of it once every 8sec

[Protean]

???

No one in their right mind would point to those as the golden years of PvP. I say this as a BC era gladiator. It was fun at the time because we didn't know better but the best was yet to come. The later seasons of WotLK, Cata, and MoP are commonly cited as the type of gameplay that PvPers would like to see return.

Who the fuck died and made you king of deciding when the golden age was?

[shoegazing]

Who the fuck died and made you king of deciding when the golden age was?

People have surveyed the PvP community many, many times and the 3 most popular answers BY FAR for best xpac for PvP are Wrath, MoP, and Cata (in that order). One poll I saw (the most recent one) had over 90% of respondents picking one of those 3 xpacs as their favorite.

You don't have to like it or agree with it but it is a widespread, near-universal opinion within the competitive PvP scene.

[Protean]

People have surveyed the PvP community many, many times and the 3 most popular answers BY FAR for best xpac for PvP are Wrath, MoP, and Cata (in that order). One poll I saw (the most recent one) had over 90% of respondents picking one of those 3 xpacs as their favorite.

You don't have to like it or agree with it but it is a widespread, near-universal opinion within the competitive PvP scene.

"The competitive pvp scene" is basically a real life enactment of lord of the flies.


90% of respondents picked what is 60% of all expansions? As we know nobody will ever pick current expansion (or probably not even include in polls) so we can safely reduce expansion packs from 5 to 4, that means: "90% of people picking one of 80% selectable expansions".

[shoegazing]

"The competitive pvp scene" is basically a real life enactment of lord of the flies.

ok whatever bud, have fun doing your random BGs AKA the LFR mode of PvP

[effs]

Class fantasy ruined PvP imo. Too much unnecessary pruning as well.

[RelaZ]

No, arena did not ruin PvP. The only thing that ruined PvP is the d3 devs development of class design since WoD and onwards. MoP/WotLK/Cata were all great in their own ways, unlike WoD and Legion.

Also AV is not great PvP, anyone who thinks this is clearly highly inexperienced in PvP. This game was never built for massive scale PvP (the game lags horribly when many players are involved).

Arena was/is great, problem is they gutted classes so hard in WoD/Legion that most actual PvPers quit the game so now the majority of people left who can voice their opinion are PvErs who pretend to be PvPers but really just want PvP to be more like PvE (i.e retarded). On top of that there's the opinion bias, people who agree with the consensus (i.e arena is the best form of PvP) are far less likely to write here (also these players don't really hang out on MMO-C all that much either anyway) than the PvErs who hate skillfull PvP.

[Ishayu]

Arena didn't ruin PvP at all. What ruined PvP is that Blizzard can't seem to figure out how to do class design correctly.

The set of abilities available to players should not just be a rotation and a bunch of cooldowns (or DR's) - CC, offensives, and defensives and even large parts of the rotation all being based on cooldown.

Instead, we should have a certain amount of resources, and we should have to consider which type of ability, which may or may not be damage, this should be spent on.

I still don't get why Blizzard got rid of abilities like Mana Shield, for instance. What the hell? What was wrong with it?

Also, why is all our CC free, often off the GCD, but has a cooldown? What's the problem with making stuns and interrupts cost the very resource you use to deal damage with so that damage feels high but you can't just yoloswag123 into enemies with all CD's up and stun them randomly while pummeling their face in like a mongoloid? Seriously, I wish Blizzard would explain this to me.

Arenas don't benefit from those systems at all. In fact, nothing does.

[Deleted]

Shut up with the casual talk. WTF?

If you think that 5-10 people trying to take out on a healer simultaneously was something fun before cataclysm or a SLSL Warlocks(I bet 90% of you don't even know what that is yet you talk), could solo half entire team in a BG simultaneously(because of DoTs that could heal you so much)or Rogues could stun you until you are dead and no trinket can save you(and you simple cant get away because of DR did not exist the same way), or perma Polly until your trinket is up again, then yeah. PvP sucks now.

And yeah, legendaries ruined PvP or something. I agree.

[rda]

PVP was ruined by lack of effort and incompetence from Blizzard, not by arenas. If arenas never existed that wouldn't help make PVP better one bit, Legion PVP would still be complete crap, just without arenas. You saw RBGs by any chance? Tell me that's good PVP. (ROFL)

[Deleted]

PVP was ruined by lack of effort and incompetence from Blizzard, not by arenas. If arenas never existed that wouldn't help make PVP better one bit, Legion PVP would still be complete crap, just without arenas. You saw RBGs by any chance? Tell me that's good PVP. (ROFL)

Tell me this is a competent player(ROFL). Oh wait, the average discussion standard of MMO-C(SAD FACE).

[Saberstrike]

I do agree about incompetent devs and gutting of classes being at the core of many problems with PvP and game as a whole (alongside wild item level inflation and ridiculous power creep). However, I do think that those problems are not the case. I do think the case is dumb one-dimensional content like raids and arena. Don't get me wrong -- raiding is fine -- but I do think blizzard's over-focus on designing the game 'for raids' is what led to this pruning of everything that doesn't fit into the 'dps rotation'. Do people even use CC in raids any more?

Arenas are problematic in the same manner. Sustained damage doesn't exist, mana doesn't exist, etc. etc.; -- leading to this need for boring one-dimensional 'burst a mofo with your cooldowns, repeat until someone dies' playstyle.

[rda]

Tell me this is a competent player(ROFL). Oh wait, the average discussion standard of MMO-C(SAD FACE).

I guess you wanted to say something but drowned in sarcasm (and my rating is likely higher than yours, dear).

[Ishayu]

I do agree about incompetent devs and gutting of classes being at the core of many problems with PvP and game as a whole (alongside wild item level inflation and ridiculous power creep). However, I do think that those problems are not the case. I do think the case is dumb one-dimensional content like raids and arena. Don't get me wrong -- raiding is fine -- but I do think blizzard's over-focus on designing the game 'for raids' is what led to this pruning of everything that doesn't fit into the 'dps rotation'. Do people even use CC in raids any more?

Arenas are problematic in the same manner. Sustained damage doesn't exist, mana doesn't exist, etc. etc.; -- leading to this need for boring one-dimensional 'burst a mofo with your cooldowns, repeat until someone dies' playstyle.

This class design doesn't make raiding or arena better in either of those two cases.

Letting the content change the class design is a bit like letting the tail wag the dog. It's backwards. I mean somehow Blizzard was able to make great classes back in vanilla and tBC without having any friggin' clue how people were gonna play the game beyond questing to max level, and yet it worked absolutely fine with a few exceptions that were mostly fixed in tBC.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I agree, sort of... The butchering of the classes didn't start until cataclysm... Arenas didn't mess with the class balance too much until then, which if I recall correctly is when they started focusing exclusively on 3v3 for PvP balance.

I think PvP balance would work best if it were balanced around either 1v1 or 10v10+... 3v3 is an akward place to focus balance, when the vast majority of PvP in this game takes place in Battlegrounds (10v10+) or out in the world (usually 1v1).

ya class balance was butchered in classic way before cata.

[Saberstrike]

This class design doesn't make raiding or arena better in either of those two cases.

Letting the content change the class design is a bit like letting the tail wag the dog. It's backwards. I mean somehow Blizzard was able to make great classes back in vanilla and tBC without having any friggin' clue how people were gonna play the game beyond questing to max level, and yet it worked absolutely fine with a few exceptions that were mostly fixed in tBC.

Exactly. See, back then they designed classes separately and content separately. Then begun the whole 'bring the player not the class thing, and the two got mixed together. I do think that to this day this philosophy is one of the core issues with WoW, and if they go back to designing classes that feel fun without trying to fit them into 'THE VISION' of content they're meant to do the game will be a lot more enjoyable.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

my point is WHO CARES what your damage rotation was like in old WoW when you had dozens of different situational and utility abilities like curses and CCs to use against other players

modern WoW classes are designed to be engaging when vsing a raid boss or a targeting dummy. you press 12345 unless you get a proc then you press 12453 instead, or whatever

older versions of the game had less emphasis on stupid rotations (therefore you could shadowbolt someone for a lot of damage) but a lot more emphasis on reading and reacting to the situation around you rather than just PvEing at the enemy player like they are a training dummy

it's not difficult to understand, you are just playing at being ignorant

maybe if your just trying to do your base rotation in pvp your doing it wrong.