Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Ghostpanther]

For those who've never seen these figures before, i'll just leave it here:




Good luck.

We do not need luck. We need a means to protect ourselves. Which thankfully our Constitution gives us one.

[Adolecent]

We do not need luck. We need a means to protect ourselves. Which thankfully our Constitution gives us one.

Good for you. My constitution provides some real protection though, it protects me from being murdered by lunatic gunowners. Thats why our homicide rate is +5x lower then yours.

Good luck.

[TITAN308]

Good for you. My constitution provides some real protection though, it protects me from being murdered by lunatic gunowners. Thats why our homicide rate is +5x lower then yours.

Good luck.

Much edge, so new.

Guess what? We don't care what your country thinks.

Hope that helps.

[Annoying]

Tragic ending for 3 intruders of a home in Ok. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/27...-burglars.html the 19 son of the father who owns the home shot them with a AR15 after a confrontation in the kitchen after he discovered they had entered the home. While this is not the most common weapon used for home defense or even the one most recommended, it does show how it can be very effective in doing so. Does not say if the intruders were armed or not. So far, the police said they are looking at it as a self defense situation.

The reason I point this news out is with a debatable question; " Is a handgun in the average person's possession during a home invasion going to be as effective for self defense as the AR15 against 3 or more intruders? We all know a flintlock is not going to be effective with any more than one intruder. Of course if the intruders are also armed with firearms, it can make a huge difference. And so some know, I do not own a AR15. But this incident got me to thinking about why some may want them.

My friend has a Tavor as his home defense gun. Bullpup design means it's much more compact, but it's firing the same round an AR-15 fires. I personally keep a handgun as my home defense weapon (H&K USP .40), but have considered something a bit more. Maybe a CZ Scorpion w/ a stock/silencer, as that's extremely compact and would certainly be much easier to shoot in a tense situation.

Any rifle that's not a bullpup is going to be solidly too long for most indoor situations. Which is why you see SWAT and other teams often having short barreled rifles or SMGs (which a citizen needs an NFA tax stamp to own). You see the MP5 having barrel lengths as short as 4.5in, and overall lengths as short as 21in. Compared to a civilian AR-15 having a barrel of at least 16in and an overall length of at least 39in. Huge difference in how easy it is to hold and move around corners.

Of course, what matters most is length from grip hand to the end of the barrel, which is why I mentioned bullpup rifles. This is the overall length minus the "length of pull" which is the length from the trigger to the rear stock. The Tavor, for example is 26.5in, but the LOP is 15.75in, meaning you only have 10.75in sticking out the front. An AR-15 has an LOP of 13.5in, yielding 25.5in from grip to the front. That's almost the entire length of the Tavor.

The only issue really with using an AR indoors is the penetrating power of your traditional .223/5.56 round as well as maneuverability in tight spaces. But if you have a collapsible stock that aspect shouldn't present a big problem.

Peoples main concern is shooting through a wall and hitting a loved one or hitting your neighbor. I do agree though that an AR would be most effective against 3+ intruders who are spread out.

The previous was about maneuverability, but the penetrating problem is why I've considered the CZ Scorpion. Fires a round that won't overpenetrate indoors, and with a stock is still super maneuverable.

[TITAN308]

snip

When you say CZ Scorpion three times I'm like beetlejuice.



The stock in its shortest position is right at around 21.5" in total length from barrel tip to end of stock.

From barrel to back of the actual receiver (ie; no stock) is about 12.5-13"

With the Gemtech MK9K installed total length is right at 29" total.

[Annoying]

When you say CZ Scorpion three times I'm like beetlejuice.



The stock in its shortest position is right at around 21.5" in total length from barrel tip to end of stock.

From barrel to back of the actual receiver (ie; no stock) is about 12.5-13"

With the Gemtech MK9K installed total length is right at 29" total.

MVP right here, showing up with a picture... with a measuring tape, haha! Looks to be about 9in from trigger to the tip of the barrel, that's pretty good.

[Adolecent]

Much edge, so new.

Guess what? We don't care what your country thinks.

Hope that helps.

If you don't care what other people think you might not want to post on a public forum.

[TITAN308]

If you don't care what other people think you might not want to post on a public forum.

You're not my supervisor.

[alexkeren]

For those who've never seen these figures before, i'll just leave it here:




Good luck.

Except the vast majority of the non-suicide deaths from guns occur in high crime areas. *cough*Chicago*cough*.

And here's the REAL KICKER, the suicide rate is higher for most of those countries than the total firearm deaths in the US.

Which means the US has less overall death.

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Good for you. My constitution provides some real protection though, it protects me from being murdered by lunatic gunowners. Thats why our homicide rate is +5x lower then yours.

Good luck.

Yet your suicide rate is 9.7 compared to the US 3.6 firearm murder rate, and the 10.2 overall firearm death rate.

[TwoNineMarine]

My friend has a Tavor as his home defense gun. Bullpup design means it's much more compact, but it's firing the same round an AR-15 fires. I personally keep a handgun as my home defense weapon (H&K USP .40), but have considered something a bit more. Maybe a CZ Scorpion w/ a stock/silencer, as that's extremely compact and would certainly be much easier to shoot in a tense situation.

Any rifle that's not a bullpup is going to be solidly too long for most indoor situations. Which is why you see SWAT and other teams often having short barreled rifles or SMGs (which a citizen needs an NFA tax stamp to own). You see the MP5 having barrel lengths as short as 4.5in, and overall lengths as short as 21in. Compared to a civilian AR-15 having a barrel of at least 16in and an overall length of at least 39in. Huge difference in how easy it is to hold and move around corners.

Of course, what matters most is length from grip hand to the end of the barrel, which is why I mentioned bullpup rifles. This is the overall length minus the "length of pull" which is the length from the trigger to the rear stock. The Tavor, for example is 26.5in, but the LOP is 15.75in, meaning you only have 10.75in sticking out the front. An AR-15 has an LOP of 13.5in, yielding 25.5in from grip to the front. That's almost the entire length of the Tavor.

The previous was about maneuverability, but the penetrating problem is why I've considered the CZ Scorpion. Fires a round that won't overpenetrate indoors, and with a stock is still super maneuverable.

I've heard very very good things about the Scorpion and once I get through my training and then probation with the FD I'll be looking into getting one.

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If you don't care what other people think you might not want to post on a public forum.

He doesn't care what a rando from Europe things in regards to our gun laws.

What he does care about is discussing weapons with fellow gun owners/potential fellow gun owners.

Not sure what you hoped to accomplish by coming in here acting as though all US citizens will be murdered by guns next week.

[Deleted]

He doesn't care what a rando from Europe things in regards to our gun laws.

What he does care about is discussing weapons with fellow gun owners/potential fellow gun owners.

Not sure what you hoped to accomplish by coming in here acting as though all US citizens will be murdered by guns next week.

Though its a Gun Control thread, not "merry gun fellows rub rub". If so, there should be a thread where you can rub guns against each other if you want that.

And it doesn't say it's only about US, so a European have as much to speak here as an American. *Shrugs*

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Except the vast majority of the non-suicide deaths from guns occur in high crime areas. *cough*Chicago*cough*.

And here's the REAL KICKER, the suicide rate is higher for most of those countries than the total firearm deaths in the US.

Which means the US has less overall death.

- - - Updated - - -




Yet your suicide rate is 9.7 compared to the US 3.6 firearm murder rate, and the 10.2 overall firearm death rate.

Did you just compare suicide with murder? What?

[Ghostpanther]

Though its a Gun Control thread, not "merry gun fellows rub rub". If so, there should be a thread where you can rub guns against each other if you want that.

And it doesn't say it's only about US, so a European have as much to speak here as an American. *Shrugs*

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Did you just compare suicide with murder? What?

Notice we did not delete his post. So sure he has the right to post here as much as anyone, but we have the right to dispute what he says.

Means some countries have other issues also. The suicide rate in some countries is higher than our gun related deaths. It is a comparison of deaths, period.

[TwoNineMarine]

Though its a Gun Control thread, not "merry gun fellows rub rub". If so, there should be a thread where you can rub guns against each other if you want that.

And it doesn't say it's only about US, so a European have as much to speak here as an American. *Shrugs*

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Did you just compare suicide with murder? What?

And I never said he can't speak here. He is more than welcome to. He just won't accomplish much. Same as you won't by making your thinly veiled attempt to hide your fear of an inanimate object.

Also we've tried having a "Guns" thread and they always get folded into this one. So here we are.

[alexkeren]

Though its a Gun Control thread, not "merry gun fellows rub rub". If so, there should be a thread where you can rub guns against each other if you want that.

And it doesn't say it's only about US, so a European have as much to speak here as an American. *Shrugs*

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Did you just compare suicide with murder? What?

No, that chart did.

I pointed out that A) most US gun deaths are highly localized occurrences AND B) that people kill people, even themselves without the help of a gun.

And gun control in the US, did a paper last semester, in over 100 hundred years has more helped the gun industry and had negligible impact on death rate.

[PhaelixWW]

The only issue really with using an AR indoors is the penetrating power of your traditional .223/5.56 round as well as maneuverability in tight spaces. But if you have a collapsible stock that aspect shouldn't present a big problem.

Peoples main concern is shooting through a wall and hitting a loved one or hitting your neighbor. I do agree though that an AR would be most effective against 3+ intruders who are spread out.

Actually, studies have shown that a 5.56 round will penetrate multiple surfaces less than 00 buck and most handgun calibers due to tumble. Though realistically all calibers/gauges will go through enough surfaces for you to be worried about penetration regardless of what firearm you use.

[Svifnymr]

For those who've never seen these figures before, i'll just leave it here:

Good luck.

It has been conclusively proven that murder rate is based on proximity to Mexico.

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Any rifle that's not a bullpup is going to be solidly too long for most indoor situations. Which is why you see SWAT and other teams often having short barreled rifles or SMGs (which a citizen needs an NFA tax stamp to own). You see the MP5 having barrel lengths as short as 4.5in, and overall lengths as short as 21in. Compared to a civilian AR-15 having a barrel of at least 16in and an overall length of at least 39in. Huge difference in how easy it is to hold and move around corners. <snipp>

The previous was about maneuverability, but the penetrating problem is why I've considered the CZ Scorpion. Fires a round that won't overpenetrate indoors, and with a stock is still super maneuverable.

There is of course the simple fact that too many folks with handguns stick it way out there anyway. Shouldering a 16" AR isn't optimum, sure, but there are alternatives and controllability is a definite plus. Many agencies are taking up carbines to replace SMG's, since they're more multi-purpose.

There have been many penetration tests showing 223 doesn't have the issue indoors that folks think it does. The main down side in my opinion is noise.

[TwoNineMarine]

Actually, studies have shown that a 5.56 round will penetrate multiple surfaces less than 00 buck and most handgun calibers due to tumble. Though realistically all calibers/gauges will go through enough surfaces for you to be worried about penetration regardless of what firearm you use.

Ah fair enough. Makes sense considering the tumble is what the 5.56 is intended to do.

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It has been conclusively proven that murder rate is based on proximity to Mexico.

- - - Updated - - -



There is of course the simple fact that too many folks with handguns stick it way out there anyway. Shouldering a 16" AR isn't optimum, sure, but there are alternatives and controllability is a definite plus. Many agencies are taking up carbines to replace SMG's, since they're more multi-purpose.

There have been many penetration tests showing 223 doesn't have the issue indoors that folks think it does. The main down side in my opinion is noise.

The noise can be a draw back but also a solid deterrent I think. Similar to how racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun can be a very good deterrent.

[Svifnymr]

Ah fair enough. Makes sense considering the tumble is what the 5.56 is intended to do.

You can even get some heavier rounds (75gr or whatnot) that expand quite well and lose energy on a hit. One of the problems with subsonic 300blk is getting something that reliably expands.

The noise can be a draw back but also a solid deterrent I think. Similar to how racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun can be a very good deterrent.

Noise is one thing, above the hearing safety threshold, not so much. Silence everything!

I've never been a fan of the "rack a round to discourage" theory of shotgunnery, but then I'm not a fan of shotguns anyway. Why keep a round down and risk short stroking the pump?

Either way, I'd imagine loading an AR15 would also be distinctive.

[TwoNineMarine]

You can even get some heavier rounds (75gr or whatnot) that expand quite well and lose energy on a hit. One of the problems with subsonic 300blk is getting something that reliably expands.



Noise is one thing, above the hearing safety threshold, not so much. Silence everything!

I've never been a fan of the "rack a round to discourage" theory of shotgunnery, but then I'm not a fan of shotguns anyway. Why keep a round down and risk short stroking the pump?

Either way, I'd imagine loading an AR15 would also be distinctive.

My theory is my hearing will recover from firing the rounds needed to drop the threat. If not at least I'll be alive. If you can run a silencer then by all means do so. And it sounds like that'll be easier to accomplish soon (unless it's already passed).

And the being a round down comes down to comfort I think. Some people aren't a fan of keeping their weapon Condition 1 while others do. Not to mention some people would rather give the noise deterrent a try before having to shoot. You would have to feel very comfortable and practiced with your weapon to ensure you don't short stroke it of course.

I personally, with my boys and wife in the house, would prefer to go for the noise deterrent first. If that scares of the baddies and prevents me from having to clean up the mess (plus patching my drywall) I'd rather do that.

[Adolecent]

You're not my supervisor.

There are many things we both are not. What we have in common is that we both are posting on an open forum in a discussion thread. Deal with it.

Except the vast majority of the non-suicide deaths from guns occur in high crime areas. *cough*Chicago*cough*.

And here's the REAL KICKER, the suicide rate is higher for most of those countries than the total firearm deaths in the US.

Which means the US has less overall death.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet your suicide rate is 9.7 compared to the US 3.6 firearm murder rate, and the 10.2 overall firearm death rate.

Please first read the article about the study that was published in the American Journal of Medicine, then come back if you want, because ... well... just read it and maybe you understand what you misinterpreted. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-...her-countries/

He doesn't care what a rando from Europe things in regards to our gun laws.

What he does care about is discussing weapons with fellow gun owners/potential fellow gun owners.

If you don't care what other people think you either scroll past it or don't come to a public forum at all. But since he reacted so strongly i think i touched a sensitive nerf, especially since i wasn't even adressing him personaly.

It has been conclusively proven that murder rate is based on proximity to Mexico.

Intresting. Do you have a link to an article from a credible source?