1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Bumbasta's Avatar
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    team with most healers wins the BG

    So I just had a silvershard game. We had no healers, the other team had 2. I don't know whether it is coincidence but the team with most healers always seems to win the BG. And it seems so unfair and easy to solve: Just only matchmake teams with the same amount of healers. I'd rather have a longer queue than biased games.

    How do you guys experience this?
    "This is no swaggering askari, no Idi Amin Dada, heavyweight boxing champion of the King's African Rifles, nor some wide shouldered, medal-strewn Nigerian general. This is an altogether more dangerous dictator - an intellectual, a spitefull African Robespierre who has outlasted them all." - The Fear: Robert Mugabe and the martyrdom of Zimbabwe, Peter Godwin.

  2. #2
    That is why oneshot is great. W/O one shot, nothing could prevent healers being op.

  3. #3
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspeil View Post
    That is why oneshot is great. W/O one shot, nothing could prevent healers being op.
    Oneshot is unnecessary - they just need to slow down the amount of healing they do, damage was slowed, healing needs to be as well... Also not increasing the kick cooldowns to 15 seconds would have made a big difference is keeping them from being so powerful.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    In other news: Man just discovered the wheel.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Oneshot is unnecessary - they just need to slow down the amount of healing they do, damage was slowed, healing needs to be as well... Also not increasing the kick cooldowns to 15 seconds would have made a big difference is keeping them from being so powerful.
    melee aren't dumpstering casters hard enough with having 4 times the gap closers that ranged have escapes, give melee a lower cooldown while disarm doesn't even exist.

    except boomkins/mages who aren't casters for pvp purposes, 20 instants in a row, ez game.

    oh and on topic, yes healers win games, more healers the better.
    Last edited by Socialhealer; 2017-03-28 at 11:19 PM.

  6. #6
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    melee aren't dumpstering casters hard enough with having 4 times the gap closers that ranged have escapes
    some melee, apparently you've never played a Ret Paladin this expansion, getting kited to death with no gap closers is so much fun... The only melee "dumpstering" on casters this expansion are Sub Rogues, WW Monks, and Havoc DH... Those are the only melee with enough gap closers AND damage to be a problem... Feral also has very high mobility but their damage is pathetic so it's irrelevant.

    give melee a lower cooldown while disarm doesn't even exist.
    Yes it does, check pvp talents, Balance Druids and Warriors both have a disarm, pretty sure Outlaw does too.

    yes healers win games, more healers the better.
    Show me a RBG where both teams have 4 healers and I'll show you a RBG where no one ever dies.

    It makes games boring as hell. Have you played any random BGs where neither team has healers, or only have 1 per team? Or played PvP in any other MMOs where healers don't exist? Fights are exciting and fast paced, they are most certainty not that way right now with the way healers are in WoW.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-03-29 at 01:00 AM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    some melee, apparently you've never played a Ret Paladin this expansion, getting kited to death with no gap closers is so much fun... The only melee "dumpstering" on casters this expansion are Sub Rogues, WW Monks, and Havoc DH... Those are the only melee with enough gap closers AND damage to be a problem... Feral also has very high mobility but their damage is pathetic so it's irrelevant.
    you missed fury warriors, charge, triple heroic leap? and death grip for a caster can literally be "death"

  8. #8
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    Lol ret paladin can still kill people in a HoJ. Yeah they struggle getting to their target, but they are rewarded for it. This should really be the paradigm as was stated by Holinka before; high damage = low mobility and vice versa. Fury warriors are literally disgusting.

  9. #9
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    you missed fury warriors, charge, triple heroic leap
    Fury warrior's damage, like Feral, is pathetic compared to melee like DH and WW Monks, so it's irrelevant, and they also take extra damage.

    and death grip for a caster can literally be "death"
    It's a 25s CD, the only caster who can't get out of that every time is a Warlock.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Fury warrior's damage, like Feral, is pathetic, so it's irrelevant.



    It's a 25s CD, the only caster who can't get out of that every time is a Warlock.
    fury warrior has bloodthirst heals and like 4 million hp takes forever to kill that as a caster, and escape death grip? gust of wind works so well when melee can just slap a stun/root and then it does sweet fuck all, then wraith walk and you've really got no way to do anything, immune to stun/magic/knockback frost dks oh my thats fun.

    i'm sure it's all well and balanced in rbgs and arenas, if only they had 5% of the participation of random bgs huh.

  11. #11
    There are diminishing returns to stacking healers. How can you take an objective when you can't kill anything?

  12. #12
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    fury warrior has bloodthirst heals and like 4 million hp
    It heals for like 4% HP, 24% when under the effects of a 3 min CD that lasts 8 seconds. Are you high? Be honest.


    and escape death grip? gust of wind works so well when melee can just slap a stun/root and then it does sweet fuck all, then wraith walk and you've really got no way to do anything, immune to stun/magic/knockback frost dks oh my thats fun.
    I have no trouble with FDK's on my Ele shaman, maybe you are the problem?
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-03-29 at 01:13 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    It heals for like 4% HP, 12% when under the effects of a 3 min CD that lasts 10 seconds or so. Are you high?



    I have no trouble with FDK's on my Ele shaman, maybe you are the problem?
    lol ele shaman no problem with melee, ok mate, everyone knows how amazing ele is for 1v1's guess it's back to learn to play for me, bet you're also ganking those rogues and DH's in world pvp as well, you go girl!

  14. #14
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    lol ele shaman no problem with melee
    I said no problem with FDKs, not all melee, so again I ask: Are you high?
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-03-29 at 01:51 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumbasta View Post
    So I just had a silvershard game. We had no healers, the other team had 2. I don't know whether it is coincidence but the team with most healers always seems to win the BG. And it seems so unfair and easy to solve: Just only matchmake teams with the same amount of healers. I'd rather have a longer queue than biased games.

    How do you guys experience this?
    I've won plenty of games with a team that had 0 healers against an opposing team with up to 3-5.. as long as the dps on your team can actually cooperate and focus the healer/s its pretty easy to win.. on some occasions we've forced the other teams healers to leave because they literally couldn't do anything

  16. #16
    tl;dr: unexpected wall of text. First part is about why having many (up to a "cap") healers in bgs is not a bad idea and doesn't imply DRs (up until a point). Second part is about many ideas to "fix the healer dominance in bgs" proposed by many, which imho are not good solutions. Third part is about a few solutions which to me seems more elegant, not necessarily to nerf healers, but to make the fights more balanced, interesting and fun, not that I think PvP can be saved mind you, atleast not this exp...I simply had some spare time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittoooo View Post
    There are diminishing returns to stacking healers. How can you take an objective when you can't kill anything?
    The first few reasons which came to mind:
    -1): More healers means that there are back-up healers to a) cover different, several areas (e.g. 3 different areas, like flags or towers, can have a "heal coverage" at the same time, guaranteed by having 3 different healers) and b) to cover the other healer/s that are getting focused. A healer alone, if focused, heals way way less than he would be if he passes unnoticed, but, if there are 2 more healers, them both can heal the "focused one", making it way harder, almost impossible, to kill him.

    So, basically, a) healers may spread in several groups/areas and cover any important place and b) getting a healer out of the fight by focusing him is harder to do with, let's say, 2 other healers healing each other endlessly. This is the main reason 2 healers are way, way better than 1 healer. 1 healer can be shut down if hard focused by half a team. The same cannot be said if there is another healer who spam heals the "focused healer". 3 healer further increase the difficulty. You can focus healer A, CC healer B, but what about healer C (and maybe D)? It requires a lot of coordination.

    -2): Math is not my forte but I think that "heal DRs" start to have an impact way further. a) Going from 1 healer and 9 dps to 2 healer and 8 dps means 100% more healing and 11,2% less damage. Going from 2 healers and 8 dps to 3 healers and 7 dps meang 50% more healing and 12,5% less damage and so on. It breaks even at 5-5. b) why isn't 5 healer 5 dps the best setup then? Because a competent healer can heal the damage of 2 competent dps. It means that a few healers would not have anything to heal at all vs a team made of 6-8 dps, some healers would be dead weight because all healers would fight to heal the same damage and many heals would simply be overhealing (even in PvE healers heal a lot, but at some point there's really nothing to heal because too many healers heal the same damage, plus of course things like dps checks and enrage timers). If the enemy team has 6-7-8 dps, it means that you need 3-3.5-4 healers, on average, to heal their damage. Most of the time, the enemy team (in rated bgs) has 6-8 dps. A team composed by 10 members, considering that a healer can heal as much as 2 dps can do damage, means that 3,3 healers and 6,6 dps is the best setup.


    //


    I saw a few people throwing off a few random ideas "to fix the healer issue" but they seem to not see the greater picture or consider all implications (and with my counter-arguments I'm excluding a good portion of them already).

    What I think about these ideas:

    Idea 1: Nerf healer healing output. E.g. nerfing their healing output from 2x dps damage output (1 healer = 2 dps) to 1.5x dps damage output (2 healers = 3 dps). Yeah, they would be easier to kill, their targets would be easier to kill, but why are you pretending that healers have a fixed number of spots?
    If 3 healers are brought to heal 6 dps because 1 healer is worth 2 dps, in the new scenario 4 healers might now be ideal to heal 6 dps.
    So, this nerf might shift the ideal number of healers from 3 to 4.

    Idea 2: Nerf healer survivability. They would still be strong, the only thing that would change is that who kill the healer first wins. If their (still strong) healers die faster than your (still strong) healers, you win, otherwise you lose the fight. It would be all scripted. You could as well as stop fightning to speed up the process. Even now losing a healer is a catastrophe and change the outcome of a fight but their survivability means that most of the time it is the dps who die first, or most of them atleast.

    Idea 3. Increase dps sustained damage. Probably worse than idea 1. Why? Because on top of having its implications (you can bring more healers) it changes the pace between non-healer fights. Let's increase the damage of dps to 30%, yeah, so we can all die in a stun. Who stuns first win. Do you remember dying in a rogue stunlock? I do.

    Idea 4. Increase dps burst damage (forcing oneshots). Who is luckier win (rng burst wise) or who has the better burst win (controlled burst wise). Healers would still be strong and make the fight stale. Everyone, including healers, would simply wait for the team that oneshot the other first. Healers would still be necessary to give the time to make that oneshot happen. Putting a timer which kills a random player every 10sec would be the same thing.
    Oneshots have no place in a strategic, skill based game imho (not saying that WoW is like that right now, I'm not that delusional).


    I hope you got it that it is not that easy. Way more elegant solutions, would be, in my opinion:

    Idea 1. Mana tweaks. Increase mana costs, reduce mana regen, reduce mana pool. That holy paladin likes to spam flash of light as if there's no tomorrow? Good, because in 10 seconds there would be no tomorrow for him, or no mana atleast.

    Idea 2. Healing patterns. More/less burst healing and/or more/less sustained healing, and so on. Less burst healing means that they cannot sustain burst damage (the healer or the dps have to use a defensive CD or escape, if they can't they die). Less sustained healing means that they cannot sustain sustained damage (so they cannot delay a death forever, but can delay it hopefully further than the enemy team).

    Idea 3. Number of healed targets. More/less focus on single targets and/or more/less focus on multi-targets. In the latter case, for example, stuff like Tranquillity and Revival are a bit too good when healing 10 targets. They heal 2x in PvP, because in arena they sucked (3 players) but in bg (10-15 players) their numbers are huge. Revival is 1400% SP. 10 targets mean 14000% SP. Hey, Jake, did you notice the damage that that fire mage did casting 70 fireballs in the last 3 minutes (200% SP * 70 = 14000% SP)? *uses Revival* No, Paul, I didn't.

    Idea 4. Healing tools. More emphasis on casting and channeling rather than healing while moving with instant spells (or with the few ones which have a cast/channel but can be used while moving always/under some conditions)? Only appliable if interrupts, pseudo-interrupts (e.g. stuns) and gap closers are nerfed, otherwise the issues of the ideas 1 (if healer can't keep targets alive) and 2 (if healers drop like flies) happen.

    Idea 5. Counter-healing tools. Mana burn, Drain Mana, offensive (UA, VT) and difensive (trash buffs) dispel protection (the latter to counter hshamans and hpriests), Necrotic Strike (L46 unholy talent now, I think it was accessible to all specs in the past, baseline for unholy if I am wrong anyway), MS effects (nerfed and/or disappeared from many specs, not necessarily a bad thing, but nothing interesting and new was added back to compensate), Execute effects (nerfed and/or disappeared from many specs, not necessarily a bad thing, but nothing interesting and new was added back to compensate).
    Hello pruning my old friend, I've come to talk with you again.
    Last edited by Seneca; 2017-03-29 at 08:15 AM.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    The healer imbalance in BG's is literally game breaking.

    Aso, many people see that there are no healers at the start and will afk the entire match since it's lost anyway.

  18. #18
    While it's true that the team with most healers wins the BG, today I was in AV against a Russian turtle team with 9 healers (we had 2) and beat them on reinforcements

    (Not adding anything to the debate, just sharing this joyfully unexpected turn of events )

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    A healer alone, if focused, heals way way less than he would be if he passes unnoticed, but, if there are 2 more healers, them both can heal the "focused one", making it way harder, almost impossible, to kill him.
    We'd do lowbie PVP, 3-4 of us queuing up all as disc priests. 1 assigned as the bubble bitch, the others natural healers (weaken shield debuff reasons). Funnest shit, cuz you know we'd also be 1-4 in damage and never die. Ever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scroff View Post
    I was in AV against a Russian turtle team with 9 healers (we had 2) and beat them on reinforcements
    Well, I'd rather lose an AV with 300 kills than win a quick 8 minute match with 6 bot kills. Russians don't usually premade to "win" the BG, but to murder death kill you.
    Quote Originally Posted by THE Bigzoman View Post
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