Nigel Farage says he will leave Britain if Brexit is a disaster

[Pann]

Yes and no, even if that what does it would not have been accepted or broken down, and opponents would have said "look we spend that much and the welsh and irish get such a large chunk out of it! if we could decide it they would get far less!"

Populism is what it is, i agree that we need to tell the man in the street what it benefits them, since there is quite a bit but when you look at economics behind it it's going to be a too complicated subject and people will always believe the populist over the economist in that matter.

I agree to a certain extent. People are always going to have different political values and they are always going to spin what they agree with to look better and what they don't look worse.

I totally agree, you cannot quantify all of the benefits and pitfalls of such a complex system like the EU but there is a growing a feeling of dissatisfaction with the EU growing within member states and they need to be able show the person on the street the benefits of being the EU. Part of the reason the leave campaign was so successful was because they could show people figures, granted a lot of them were exaggerated or even outright lies, but remain had nothing to counter them with.

Unfortunately there is no easy solution.

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You could make the same argument for Trump. It's just the natural weakness of democracy in action.

Not really. If Trump turns out to be a disaster the US electorate can correct that mistake in four years time. If Brexit is a disaster we are stuck with it.

[Deleted]

Brexit is a good indicator of why important decisions should never be decided with a public vote. The public is stupid and easily manipulated.

Everyone who tries to imply that anyone who voted for brexit is "stupid and uninformed", is exactly that. So many bleeding heart, safe place, puppy day millenials being manipulated by the media and celebrities to realise that brexit was EXACTLY what the UK needed. The less unelected technocrats governing us from afar the better. Funny how apparent liberal left wingers, who claim to believe in democracy, are so quick to bitch and moan when they get a taste.

[Graeham]

Yet you people are unable to name one bad deal that is actually real. Not to mention the idea that you suddenly won't have to comply to EU regulations on a trade level even if you revert to a pure economic relationship like other nations have to do outside the EU.

And yes indeed if you have been screwed over by your MEP's for a long time, however i don't see how leaving the EU is going to change that

Why are you saying 'you people' as if I'm automatically a supporter of him? Brexit doesn't thrill me but I could see it coming a mile away just like Trump. Now, instead of the opposing politicians and voters taking a step back and acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, those voters weren't getting a great deal they're not using them as convenient scapegoats.

Nigel's an opportunist, just like any politician. He just happened to be very charismatic and said the right things to the right people and played the 'game' well enough to succeed. The opposition, meanwhile, are very much the same way in terms of being opportunistic. When politicians stand to benefit directly in terms of income there's little incentive for them to be honest. This, too, applies to supporters - let's me honest here and admit that a lot of people voted for Brexit for the sake of the status quo and convenience afforded to them continuing.

Had they pushed for reform and acknowledged the legitimate criticism and concerns involving the EU things might have turned out differently. Even if it didn't, the vote needs to be honoured if democracy is truly valued in the UK. For the record, I don't think Brexit is going to change a whole lot - but at least without the EU it will be the politicians in Westminster who can - hopefully - be held fully accountable by the law if things become too terrible.

[Deleted]

Kind of. The presidential election in the US is not direct democracy, though.

The whole electoral college was supposed to be a save guard against this kind of thing haha I was so happy when Trump got elected. Anything to wipe the smug, self satisfied smile off that hyprocite Clinton's face.

[Acidbaron]

Had they pushed for reform and acknowledged the legitimate criticism and concerns involving the EU things might have turned out differently. Even if it didn't, the vote needs to be honoured if democracy is truly valued in the UK. For the record, I don't think Brexit is going to change a whole lot - but at least without the EU it will be the politicians in Westminster who can - hopefully - be held fully accountable by the law if things become too terrible.

You have Boris as Foreign minister, i dare to put money on it for the next decade everything bad will still be blamed on something abroad, if it's not EU it will be immigrants. It would be nice if people would be held accountable but i don't see that happening in the UK. Nobody can tell what will happen economically it's in both sides their best interest to maintain all of the current deals and each industry will most likely have already prepared their lobbyist to achieve that goal, politically the UK will have no say in it and will have to subject itself to rules and regulations as other nations do that function within the EU without being part of it.

That's not particularly bad since the EU has the best consumer protection laws on all fronts. The UK will however be in a weaker position to negotiate deals with other giants, to name something extreme yet possible. US forcing the UK to lower their regulations regarding the meat sector, in the EU you currently have very high standards to what you can use on meat and stock, in the US only the medicine used is checked on the final product and there's no real control on stock for this. This is just one of the many things, to see what deals to be concerned about you can look at the TTIP deals and where it ended up getting stuck.

[Acidbaron]

You do realize that the UK representatives to the EU parliament voted enthusiastically on most of those EU deals (and many they even pushed themselves) or even blocked some that would have helped the UK? People who voted for Brexit should not be mad at the EU they should be mad at the people who poorly represented them in the EU and should have thought much more deeply who they voted for the EU parliament. Also anything the EU does is not actually active in any of the states until the local government ratifies it into local law (so your national parliament agreed with everything). As for people not knowing what was happening in the EU parliament, its actions are fairly transparent and the websites are updated frequently; you can blame the local media for that.

Your politicians have been scapegoating the EU for their incompetence for decades and you allowed them to do that. I hope that at least after Brexit, when they keep trying to blame someone else, you tell them to shod off.

You don't vote for the EU UK mp's, they are chosen among themselves. Simply to add that fun fact.

But yes anything the EU so called "forced upon" the UK was approved by the elected officials of the UK. We actually have to be glad the UK didn't get their way many times, otherwise Turkey would have been an european member state now.

[Acidbaron]

Wait what? Is that a thing in the UK only? Most EU states I know have separate elections for their EU parliament representatives.

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Yeah I did not know that. Is that true anywhere else in the EU? Such a shitty deal for the people in the UK, again by their own government.

To add to that, why does the EU even allow that? It should require all members to have direct democracy in the election of their EU MPs and if anyone objects, show them the door. This should not be up for discussion imo.

Why does the EU allow that? To respect the UK's sovereignty. Yes i'm fully aware of the irony but every member state is allowed to use their own system.

[Zolaris192]

Why do the remain supporters here want to be ruled by a group of unelected officials and large banks so badly?

[Acidbaron]

Is that one of those fun alt-facts?

Are you saying i'm wrong with the term alt facts?

I'll supply some sources of how it works over there.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-m...ng_system.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...nited_Kingdom)

In short they vote on a party but never on a person, that party then decides who they send. I vote on who sits there directly.

However to add another fun fact, UK citizens say they are badly represented inside the EU and behold now the voter turn out.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/european...on-turnout.htm

[Acidbaron]

Aye, we voted for the party we want to represent us and the party chooses the candidate.

Here's a list of candidates for the 2014 eu elections representing the south east.
http://www.europarl.org.uk/resource/...south-east.pdf
This is a, partly broken, list of all candidates for the last uk eu election.
http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-m...dates2014.html
So it's false to say that we don't know who we are voting for.

The party you vote for can choose to send whoever they want to represent you. I know here i can vote for the party as a whole or on the list individually. While we can argue how democratic that is, you do know it's rather odd to point out the as UK citizen that the EU does no represent you, while barely a third of the whole country votes for that EU election. Could be related however that there's a low turn out in every election since that number does come close to the number of people who voted in the brexit vote.

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I mean in Greece we have party-list proportional but the party list allows for voting for individual candidates (so the number per party is decided as per the proportional system then candidates are elected in order of their individual votes) which I feel is fairly democratic. I assume @Acidbaron means the UK uses a party-list proportional but there is no ability to select within the party list and each party covers the proportional amount from the list as they see fit. Is this it?

The way i read it, yes the party decides based on the number of seats it obtained.

[Logwyn]

Godwin's law relates to topics that aren't relevant to discussions about Hitler. This is completely applicable. UK is withdrawing from a European Union. What was Hitlers purpose? OH! THATS RIGHT! It was to unite Europe under his rule.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1—*that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler."

[Slant]

Godwin's law relates to topics that aren't relevant to discussions about Hitler. This is completely applicable. UK is withdrawing from a European Union. What was Hitlers purpose? OH! THATS RIGHT! It was to unite Europe under his rule.

Nope, Nazi rule has nothing to do with the topic. That was a proper Godwin. Neither Brexit nor the EU have anything to do with Hitler or Nazis. In fact, everytime this is brought up, it's Godwin. Yes, that's how much the whole topic is bullshit. And the caveat that Godwinning the thread should default the thread is pretty much applicable here, too. Bringing Hitler into it pretty much lays open that they don't have useful argument to make, thus losing the debate by default.

[Siph]

Brexit is a good indicator of why important decisions should never be decided with a public vote. The public is stupid and easily manipulated.

On the other hand, calling people you disagree with stupid without any arguments is a clear sign of intelligence. Calling them 'easily manipulated' i.e. sheep is just plain ignorant.

The EU is gonna fail as it is not sustainable in its current form. The UK is taking a major headstart in recovering from the upcoming collapse.

[Puupi]

Everyone who tries to imply that anyone who voted for brexit is "stupid and uninformed", is exactly that. So many bleeding heart, safe place, puppy day millenials being manipulated by the media and celebrities to realise that brexit was EXACTLY what the UK needed. The less unelected technocrats governing us from afar the better. Funny how apparent liberal left wingers, who claim to believe in democracy, are so quick to bitch and moan when they get a taste.

On the other hand, calling people you disagree with stupid without any arguments is a clear sign of intelligence. Calling them 'easily manipulated' i.e. sheep is just plain ignorant.

The EU is gonna fail as it is not sustainable in its current form. The UK is taking a major headstart in recovering from the upcoming collapse.

Comments like these clearly amplify my message.

I didn't say "anyone who voted for brexit is stupid and uninformed". Many of them are, though. There is a huge difference between those two statements.

I said public shouldn't get to decide important things like this. Most people are uninformed and stupid. If, say 50%, of people are informed and not stupid...half of them says yes to brexit and half of them no to brexit. Then the remaining half of the whole populace, the uninformed and stupid, make the decision whether you stay in EU or not.

The side which has the better propaganda campaign wins the election.

[ati87]

Seems this asswipe next target is the US, he and some others wants to force a split in California so Republican can get a vote or two as well.

http://ussanews.com/News1/2017/03/28...ornia-in-half/

Brexit Leader Nigel Farage Working to Split Liberal California in Half

How anybody can take this guy serious when he admits if the UK turns into a sinking ship he abandon ship is beyond me.

[Deleted]

Comments like these clearly amplify my message.

I didn't say "anyone who voted for brexit is stupid and uninformed". Many of them are, though. There is a huge difference between those two statements.

I said public shouldn't get to decide important things like this. Most people are uninformed and stupid. If, say 50%, of people are informed and not stupid...half of them says yes to brexit and half of them no to brexit. Then the remaining half of the whole populace, the uninformed and stupid, make the decision whether you stay in EU or not.

The side which has the better propaganda campaign wins the election.

By not allowing certain areas of the public a vote you are basically endorsing fascism

Also in the brexit campain the STAY side ran a much heavier, slicker and well financed campaign including sending out pamphlets to every single house in the UK explaining why they should remain. The Brexit result was a clear shout in anger at the status quo and a sign of peoples growing apathy with the political elite.

[Puupi]

By not allowing certain areas of the public a vote you are basically endorsing fascism.

.............errr......what?

[Puremallace]

Bet people in Britain are feeling pretty dumb over that xenophobia shit now lol

[Deleted]

.............errr......what?

You're saying "you 50% are not intelligent enough/informed enough (or in other words don't support my view) to have a say in the most important aspecxts of the governing of our country.

That is fascism plain and simple.

[Puupi]

You're saying "you 50% are not intelligent enough/informed enough (or in other words don't support my view) to have a say in the most important aspecxts of the governing of our country.

That is fascism plain and simple.

No, it's called representative democracy.