Universal basic incomes

[Nadiru]

It's weird how you think that trade activity will suddenly and for no reason at all stop completely just because the poor are better off than they are today.

Because government distribution of funds to the poor hasn't resulted in increased trade activity yet, except now this problem makes most of the country "the poor." Ignoring that, if take either a right or left wing stance about it, and you'd come to the conclusion that the government cannot be trusted to safeguard the livelihoods of every single demographic, because the track record there is utterly abysmal. Can people in Appalachia who are still dirt poor trust the government to get it right this time, after 50 years and $20 trillion dollars of War on Poverty programs? Can people in Detroit? Can UBI make the unemployed not feel superfluous, because that's half the problem right there: Depression fostered by not feeling useless to society. If you're looking for a socioeconomic reason to explain why the inner city and the outer country are rife with drug abuse and suicide, that's a really solid one.

[Zolaris192]

Welfare facilitates complacency and lack of innovation

It ravages any community it has a grip on (see inner cities)

What we need is less government interference and regulation and lower taxes across the board

The majority of the population wants personal freedom and prosperity, not to be watched over and babysat by the state

[zenkai]

Welfare facilitates complacency and lack of innovation

It ravages any community it has a grip on (see inner cities)

What we need is less government interference and regulation and lower taxes across the board

The majority of the population wants personal freedom and prosperity, not to be watched over and babysat by the state

Exactly, what incentive do lazy people have to work if all their needs are taken care of.

[NED funded]

I'll admit I assumed you were screwing with the data (particularly as your original number was, by your own admission, wrong), but even with this correction, you're still wrong. Here's your original statement;



People not in the labor force have not, as a group, "given up looking for jobs and instead prefer their leisure time".

https://www.bls.gov/bls/cps_fact_sheets/lfp_mock.htm

The labor force is the employed plus the unemployed. Which means the remainder is everyone who is neither. This includes the sick or disabled, it includes students, it includes people living off savings/inheritance, they may be retired early (if you're still looking at 25-54), they may be homemakers,

And y'know, BLS asked them. We don't even have to guess; we have the data; https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-...ey-working.htm

Of the 11.5% of the male 25-54 population that aren't in the labor force;
6% are sick or disabled,
1.1% are retired
1.2% are homemakers/caretakers
1.6% are going to school,
and just 1.6% cited "other reasons", which is a catchall group that includes "I've given up". So even that 1.6% is too high.

So there's your number. Something south of 1.6% of men aged 25-54 aren't working because they've given up looking. Not 20%, not 11%.

Also, the single biggest growth in those reasons was going to school. Between 2004 and 2014, the proportion of the "other reasons" category only shifted from 1.3% to 1.6%.

You can claim dissability by abusing pain killers and obessity, two of which are big problems in the US ( like I highly doubt the amount of people in dissability has increased that much since the 70s), in addition of not having a job being something people want to justify at all costs so that covers homemakers. And yes I'm fully aware of people going back to school. But thats not the phenomenom I'm talking about. There is a legit problem in which young and to an extent older individuals are just flat out not doing nothing but either watching tv or playing video games and yes this is counting going to school as being employed. The 20%(well 22) figure comes from there.

[Captain N]

Exactly, what incentive do lazy people have to work if all their needs are taken care of.

My guess is the same thing that happens in my Company where some people are completely OK with just making the Guarantee for staying marked up and available to work. The people who want more do the work to earn more. It actually allows the more ambitious of us access to more earnings.

[Orange Joe]

Not really. Bear in mind that each employer needs a certain set of skills. If you have a large set of skills, then you will be attractive to a large number of employers. Plainly, the more skills you have, the higher advantage over an average person you have. 15% unemployment, for example, is still 85% employment, so you only need to get into top 85% - which isn't hard, if you are willing to work on your skills. Unless you have a profession that, for some reason, is not needed in this particular region... But, again, your profession, to an extent, is a result of the choices you've made in life.

Again false. Many many jobs can easily be trained on the spot.

[zenkai]

My guess is the same thing that happens in my Company where some people are completely OK with just making the Guarantee for staying marked up and available to work. The people who want more do the work to earn more. It actually allows the more ambitious of us access to more earnings.

At lease those people in your company are a productive member of society.

[Deleted]

I have this view in my mind that a basic income could only work in smaller countries.
No way the US for example could ever get this off the ground (they can't even get healthcare of the ground...)

[Captain N]

At lease those people in your company are a productive member of society.

Are you defining productive members of society because they have a job?

If you are then you need to understand that their Guaranteed Income doesn't involve them having to work at all in a pay period and they'll still net between $3000 and $4200 every 2 weeks. They just need to be available and ready to work if they're called.

This means that those of us that want the finer things in life take jobs that work 5-6 days a week or pay that overtime. Some people will always be OK with the bare minimum and this should be completely fine to those who want more. UBI like my Guaranteed Income for the on-call workers means everyone is going to make at least that $3000-$4200....those who work will still benefit more from those who do not.

[zenkai]

Are you defining productive members of society because they have a job?

If you are then you need to understand that their Guaranteed Income doesn't involve them having to work at all in a pay period and they'll still net between $3000 and $4200 every 2 weeks. They just need to be available and ready to work if they're called.

This means that those of us that want the finer things in life take jobs that work 5-6 days a week or pay that overtime. Some people will always be OK with the bare minimum and this should be completely fine to those who want more. UBI like my Guaranteed Income for the on-call workers means everyone is going to make at least that $3000-$4200....those who work will still benefit more from those who do not.

And you don't understand the people who don't want to work will outweigh those who do, leaving holes in the job market, especially in services.

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http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/re...-basic-income/

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Seriously, anyone who thinks Universal Income would work without full automation doesn't understand human nature and they are bad at math.

[melodramocracy]

At lease those people in your company are a productive member of society.

Fortunately, automation means that fewer people need to (or will even have opportunity to) adhere to your archaic view of "productive".

[Captain N]

And you don't understand the people who don't want to work will outweigh those who do, leaving holes in the job market, especially in services.

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http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/re...-basic-income/

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Seriously, anyone who thinks Universal Income would work without full automation doesn't understand human nature and they are bad at math.

Are you seriously using a Libertarian Blog as evidence that people are simply going to give up working to live a bare minimum life? I mean even your source focuses on giving 12 random people $1000 and then using that as the basis of why UBI won't work.

I don't know about you but I can't think of many people who would be OK with just food, shelter, and clothing -- Eventually someone somewhere is going to want a luxury item.

You're literally making the same argument about UBI that people make when discussing minimum wage increases....if we do that then there's going to be mass unemployment. There's no basis in that reality especially considering we've seen it work before with Minincome and in situations like my company.

[zenkai]

Are you seriously using a Libertarian Blog as evidence that people are simply going to give up working to live a bare minimum life? I mean even your source focuses on giving 12 random people $1000 and then using that as the basis of why UBI won't work.

I don't know about you but I can't think of many people who would be OK with just food, shelter, and clothing -- Eventually someone somewhere is going to want a luxury item.

You're literally making the same argument about UBI that people make when discussing minimum wage increases....if we do that then there's going to be mass unemployment. There's no basis in that reality especially considering we've seen it work before with Minincome and in situations like my company.

Yes some people will, but most won't. I will give you an example

Fat friend of mine, was on a diet, lost 100lbs, but he was still 400, he was in college on his way to be a computer programmer. He got in SS on disability for being over weight. He had all his needs taken care of, 14 years later he's almost 800lbs, dropped out of college, and he sits around all day playing games on his laptop/ps4 and watching Netflix on his big screen TV.

There won't be enough people who want to work to pay for those who don't want to work.

Try living in the real world, only people who want this are welfare babies.

[Fugus]

Yes some people will, but most won't. I will give you an example

Fat friend of mine, was on a diet, lost 100lbs, but he was still 400, he was in college on his way to be a computer programmer. He got in SS on disability for being over weight. He had all his needs taken care of, 14 years later he's almost 800lbs, dropped out of college, and he sits around all day playing games on his laptop/ps4 and watching Netflix on his big screen TV.

There won't be enough people who want to work to pay for those who don't want to work.

Try living in the real world, only people who want this are welfare babies.

Umm, you know that the way things are setup in SS they actually become a trap where if you try to improve yourself, you lose it. UBI doesn't have that situation.

I say that as someone who is stuck dealing with the VA which is something similar. Can't physically hold down a job and stuck fighting for disability to survive but if I were to struggle and even try and get a 5 hour per month job, that would be enough for them to leave me for dead and leave me worse off.

UBI would not have that trap at all.

[zenkai]

Umm, you know that the way things are setup in SS they actually become a trap where if you try to improve yourself, you lose it. UBI doesn't have that situation.

I say that as someone who is stuck dealing with the VA which is something similar. Can't physically hold down a job and stuck fighting for disability because of it to survive but if I were to struggle and even try and get a 5 hour per month job, that would be enough for them to leave me for dead and leave me worse off.

UBI would not have that trap at all.

SS is a trap? He was on his way to becoming a programmer, who do you think has a better life, someone on SS or someone who is a programmer? He dropped out of college because if he gotten his degree he would have lost his SS status. He didn't care about making more money, he cared more about the ability to sit on his fat ass all day and play video games.

This basically gives addicts a way out, maybe some people just want to sit around drunk all day, or they want to do drugs all day.

[Captain N]

Yes some people will, but most won't. I will give you an example

Fat friend of mine, was on a diet, lost 100lbs, but he was still 400, he was in college on his way to be a computer programmer. He got in SS on disability for being over weight. He had all his needs taken care of, 14 years later he's almost 800lbs, dropped out of college, and he sits around all day playing games on his laptop/ps4 and watching Netflix on his big screen TV.

There won't be enough people who want to work to pay for those who don't want to work.

Try living in the real world, only people who want this are welfare babies.

Your anecdotes are not a reflection of reality no matter how much you want them to be.

Considering that a good portion of the people on this forum with extremely well paying jobs have been arguing in favor of such a system as we lose more and more jobs to automation should be indicative that your welfare baby comment is incorrect.

The real world is acknowledging that in the very near future many jobs are going to be replaced....and it also acknowledges that with a continuing to drop unemployment rate means people want to work.

[Fugus]

SS is a trap? He was on his way to becoming a programmer, who do you think has a better life, someone on SS or someone who is a programmer? He dropped out of college because if he gotten his degree he would have lost his SS status. He didn't care about making more money, he cared more about the ability to sit on his fat ass all day and play video games.

This basically gives addicts a way out, maybe some people just want to sit around drunk all day, or they want to do drugs all day.

Many of those programs are a trap when you look into it. There are many who are on it who are stuck who can't attempt to improve themselves or else they end up losing it and end up worse off.

Can't say anything about your friend but I and friends of mine all went to college for degrees in computer programming and most of them ended up being shit on even with it and unable to get work within their fields. Two of them never left the college and just started working there to help pay the bills and at least put it to work. One of them ended up stuck working at Walmart with something like $27,000 in college debt over it and never even managed to finish because of the costs and I ran out of money and never managed to finish while I was told by the teachers that I was actually ahead of the school back when I went.

And as far as addicts, those will be there regardless, but the higher stress caused by our current system actually creates more addicts.

You can't really compare a UBI to SS in that regard. With a UBI, you friend would have no excuse to drop out because it didn't matter because he would have got it any way.

[zenkai]

Your anecdotes are not a reflection of reality no matter how much you want them to be.

Considering that a good portion of the people on this forum with extremely well paying jobs have been arguing in favor of such a system as we lose more and more jobs to automation should be indicative that your welfare baby comment is incorrect.

The real world is acknowledging that in the very near future many jobs are going to be replaced....and it also acknowledges that with a continuing to drop unemployment rate means people want to work.

Funny, the people I talk too, all who have well paying jobs are fucking laughing at this.

[Captain N]

Funny, the people I talk too, all who have well paying jobs are fucking laughing at this.

Of course they do....

[zenkai]

Of course they do....

I value my colleagues opinions, who I know are well educated, over some forum people who use hopes and wishes to back up what they say.