Should the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from U.S. schools?

[LMuhlen]

If you take pledges seriously and really believe in what taking a pledge of allegiance stands for, you shouldn't allow minors to do it. The same way a minor shouldn't drink, drive, have sex with adults, vote, get tatoos or whatever is restricted to minors where you live, minors shouldn't be seen by the law as prepared to make a decision such as pledging their allegiance.

If you let minors do it, you don't take it seriouslly, it's just a meaningless ritual. And if you enforce a meaningless ritual mascaraded as something big, you become a joke to people looking from the outside. Which is what is happening here, from what I gather. In the best case scenario, you are imposing a contradiction. In the worse case, you are purposelly trying to brainwash and mess with the head of your citizens.

[Shadowferal]

If you take pledges seriously and really believe in what taking a pledge of allegiance stands for, you shouldn't allow minors to do it. The same way a minor shouldn't drink, drive, have sex with adults, vote, get tatoos or whatever is restricted to minors where you live, minors shouldn't be seen by the law as prepared to make a decision such as pledging their allegiance.

If you let minors do it, you don't take it seriouslly, it's just a meaningless ritual. And if you enforce a meaningless ritual mascaraded as something big, you become a joke to people looking from the outside. Which is what is happening here, from what I gather. In the best case scenario, you are imposing a contradiction. In the worse case, you are purposelly trying to brainwash and mess with the head of your citizens.

Perish forbid that responsible parents teach their children their beliefs.../s
But that's the way it is...

[Puupi]

"liberty and justice for all" - then you force minors to repeat it. I guess you didn't understand what you just said yourself.....

[Independent voter]

"liberty and justice for all" - then you force minors to repeat it. I guess you didn't understand what you just said yourself.....

The Pledge is about the US Civil War Puupi.

"One nation" not two nations you Southerners.

"Indivisible" means you can't divide it you Southerners.

It was established in 1875 or so, right after the Civil War.

The "under God" part was added in 1950.

There were 31 million people in the US during the Civil War and 625K of them died, nearly all men so it made it easier to get dates.

[Shadowferal]

"liberty and justice for all" - then you force minors to repeat it. I guess you didn't understand what you just said yourself.....

Maybe you should remember how many "rights" a child has in the US.
Because no one here steps between between a child and his/her parents, including a judge unless there's a damn good reason. (and you display zero knowledge of that, so you might want to re-think what you're posting about. Because children are a line you never cross here without losing a limb. And many a judge here will say you deserve it)

[Puupi]

Maybe you should remember how many "rights" a child has in the US.
Because no one here steps between between a child and his/her parents, including a judge unless there's a damn good reason. (and you display zero knowledge of that, so you might want to re-think what you're posting about. Because children are a line you never cross here without losing a limb. And many a judge here will say you deserve it)

The teacher would be taking a pretty fucking big step between me and my child if my child were forced to repeat that shit.

[Berengil]

Perish forbid that responsible parents teach their children their beliefs.../s
But that's the way it is...

I'd call that brainwashing. A child has no capacity to dispute their parent's philosophical views and simply internalizes them, often without question.

The ideal would be a parent who says " This is what I believe, but lots of people have other ways and as you get older you should be prepared to investigate what you feel is right for you. As long as you live here of course, these are the rules."

[Shadowferal]

The teacher would be taking a pretty fucking big step between me and my child if my child were forced to repeat that shit.

You don't live here, and if I recall correctly, you don't have children anyway....so...that's a non-issue.

Bear in mind that many here view military service as "patriotic." (according to a poll I read earlier) And that goes hand-in-hand with religious belief.

[Wildtree]

For those who aren't familiar with it, the Pledge of Allegiance reads as follows:

4. It smacks of something the Hitler Youth would have done.

4. Literally Hitler? Literally?

Err.. I get his argument. Though, Hitler Youth might be an exaggeration. But the mechanism as for the why the pledge exists in schools, that mechanism is the same.
Did they need Hitler to come up with that idea? I don't think so. They figured that out by themselves.


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You don't live here, and if I recall correctly, you don't have children anyway....so...that's a non-issue.

...no...That's a logical fallacy, you just slipped into.

One can perfectly fine conclude what they would do, if exposed to a rather harmless/normal situation.
As long as stress and fear or other severe mind altering factors aren't present, there's no problem with it.

[Shadowferal]

...no...That's a logical fallacy, you just slipped into.

If you think so.
But it's not.

You can't get a feel for another country and all the pros and cons that go with it if you've not been born into it and lived a life there.

[Puupi]

You don't live here, and if I recall correctly, you don't have children anyway....so...that's a non-issue.

.......what kind of argument is that?

Bear in mind that many here view military service as "patriotic." (according to a poll I read earlier) And that goes hand-in-hand with religious belief.

Military service is patriotic. You don't put children in the military service though do you?

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If you think so.
But it's not.

You can't get a feel for another country and all the pros and cons that go with it if you've not been born into it and lived a life there.

lol that is just ridiculous bullshit.

Think about that argument for a second next time you criticize Sharia law, female genital mutilation or jihadism.

[Shadowferal]

.......what kind of argument is that?

Having a child always is always a game changer.
A non-parent doesn't cross that line here. Ever.

Military service is patriotic. You don't put children in the military service though do you?

As a responsible parent you teach children, typically your own beliefs.

lol that is just ridiculous bullshit.

I'm sure you want to believe that. But our laws aren't yours, are they?

Think about that argument for a second next time you criticize Sharia law, female genital mutilation or jihadism.

Deflection. You might want to try a different thread. (Or did I post such here?)

The upshot here is the Pledge isn't going leaving anytime soon, if ever.

[Wildtree]

If you think so.
But it's not.

You can't get a feel for another country and all the pros and cons that go with it if you've not been born into it and lived a life there.

For this case you don't need to have the feel for the country. You just need the feel for the action.

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Having a child always is always a game changer.
A non-parent doesn't cross that line here. Ever.

As a responsible parent you teach children, typically your own beliefs.

I'm sure you want to believe that. But our laws aren't yours, are they?

Deflection. You might want to try a different thread. (Or did I post such here?)

The upshot here is the Pledge isn't going leaving anytime soon, if ever.

I AM a parent..
Everything you say here is nonsense. Even in parts outright dangerous, or appalling.
No, you do not teach your children YOUR beliefs. That makes you a shitty parent.
You stay put as a supporter and let your children develop their own personality.
Your kids are human beings. That's the number 1 fact any parent has to put above all else.

[Independent voter]

The "Patriot Act" triggers a lot of people who are triggered by words like "patriot". We should've called the "Patriot Act" "House bill 107-C-9".

The "Pledge of Allegiance" suffers from the same problem, it's triggering. We should change the name of the "Pledge of Allegiance" to "Chill the f'ck out you hillbilly goat herders" pledge.

[Shadowferal]

I AM a parent..
Everything you say here is nonsense. Even in parts outright dangerous, or appalling.
No, you do not teach your children YOUR beliefs. That makes you a shitty parent.
You stay put as a supporter and let your children develop their own personality.
Your kids are human beings. That's the number 1 fact any parent has to put above all else.

If you're not teaching your children right from wrong...which are beliefs btw, then you're contributing to social problems, not to mention being a rotten parent in my opinion.

So...who is spouting nonsense here?

[Wildtree]

If you're not teaching your children right from wrong...which are beliefs btw, then you're contributing to social problems, not to mention being a rotten parent in my opinion.

So...who is spouting nonsense here?

Right from wrong isn't a matter of belief, it's a matter of the laws.
And there's also a difference in providing an opinion to the kids, vs teaching ones own beliefs.

[satimy]

Remove people who don't like the pledge from the country, I'm sure their South American friends will take them in

[LMuhlen]

This is not about parents teaching their kids. The pledge doesn't happen at home, before going to school, in a private familiar session. It's a public ritual performed at the schools with no involvement or control by the parents, pushed down by the government. If anything, it goes against the idea of the parents transmiting their beliefs.

[Ghostpanther]

I get what you are saying, and I have several points to make here.

First, there is a difference between a contract and a pledge. A contract is something I sign voluntarily with the other side, which legally states what each of us is to do, and what happens if one of us fails to uphold the contract. A pledge is something you say, but it does not bind you to anything legally in itself. From a contract, you get certain benefits if you uphold it. Pledge gives you no benefits, it is a purely self-restricting act.

Second, of course a pledge can influence your decisions; the question is, whether it influences them in a positive or a negative way. Who is to say that your decision to stay in the army was the right one? Since it was mainly based on an abstract set of phrases you've said, rather than on something tangible, logical, pragmatic, you were basically rolling a dice and accepting the outcome.

Finally, like I said, everyone is free to make any pledges they want. One should not be required to give a pledge, however. There is a legal contract that prescribes what you should do in a given relationship with another (others) human being(s), and beyond that everything should be solely up to you.

Bottom line is, you don't need any pledges to make reasonable decisions. If you are happy with something, you don't need any pledge to keep being happy with it. If you are unhappy with something, then a pledge will only be an unnecessary hindrance. If there are positive and negative sides to something and you are having a hard time deciding (as was your case), then a pledge won't give you any new information helping with your decision, and if you make the decision based on the pledge, then I wouldn't call it a quality decision - even if it leads to the better outcome. You might as well, again, roll a dice and accept the outcome.

A pledge is nothing more than a solemn promise. You make those when you get married or sign up for loan or many other things. And yes, some are legally binding and if you break them there is a price to pay. The pledge of allegiance just happens to be one you are not required to do or should you. But to say a pledge is not a quality decision is not correct in my opinion. Marry someone and then break that pledge and see what happens. So it depends on the pledge. Point being a contract is actually a pledge between two parties.

[Beazy]

Keep it, indoctrination is still pretty important in todays world.