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  1. #81
    Field Marshal dmchellfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redclass View Post
    Oh I misunderstood your original statement. I thought you were trying to say that Frost players only chose that spec because of the OP helm. My bad.

    As far as legendaries goes, viable isn't good. viable is viable. Viable means it won't gimp your play. When I sim myself using the legendary bracers(some day i may actually get them) my DPS goes up by 40k. I consider that a good legendary. Go frost and you got, the helm, ring, bracers, belt, and soon enough the pants.

    The point is, Frost DKs don't get sad when they get a throughput legendary. Any UH DKs excited to get the shoulders? Belt? Ring? If you're describing Prydaz as an amazing legendary for UH DKs, I think it's fair to admit we have a problem.
    Nah, the stat gain from Prydaz is great for almost all encounters

    KJBW is an amazing stat stick with sick amounts of Strength, and is a large dps increase

    Uvanimor is a massive dps legendary as it improves the flow of your rotation so much that you will also see a drastic dps increase from it

    Draughr though, used to be amazing pre-Tier 19 bonus, but will become good again with Tier 20 when we don't have wound application through Death Coil any longer

    Uvanimor is as much, if not a tiny bit more of a dps increase to Unholy, than Necrofantasia is for Frost
    Instructor's Fourth Lesson is a larger increase to UH than Toravon is for Frost (not saying by a large bit, but fairly)
    Koltira's Newfound Will beats Draughr hands down this tier, and probably in Tier 20 too
    KJBW is a solid stat stick for both specs
    Perseverance of the Ebon Marty wrecked Death March completely in 7.1.5 (And is probably still a lot better than Death March in 7.2 even after the nerf)
    Prydaz is a solid stat stick for both specs
    Sephuz is a solid stat stick for both specs

    Overall, both specs are in decent places with regards to legendaries I think

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobb View Post
    You also forgot: BoS is a simple rotation to play over UH.
    this is kinda of 2 prong. Its simplier, but unholy is also more rng which a lot of ppl dont like (and to make it worse, another fucking rng gold talent.)

  3. #83
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    this is kinda of 2 prong. Its simplier, but unholy is also more rng which a lot of ppl dont like (and to make it worse, another fucking rng gold talent.)
    I just dont understand where this "unholy is more rng" rumor comes from when BoS is almost completely reliant on RNG, and not even simple RNG as in "how many procs" but "how many" AND "when".

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by dmchellfire View Post
    Nah, the stat gain from Prydaz is great for almost all encounters

    KJBW is an amazing stat stick with sick amounts of Strength, and is a large dps increase

    Uvanimor is a massive dps legendary as it improves the flow of your rotation so much that you will also see a drastic dps increase from it

    Draughr though, used to be amazing pre-Tier 19 bonus, but will become good again with Tier 20 when we don't have wound application through Death Coil any longer

    Uvanimor is as much, if not a tiny bit more of a dps increase to Unholy, than Necrofantasia is for Frost
    Instructor's Fourth Lesson is a larger increase to UH than Toravon is for Frost (not saying by a large bit, but fairly)
    Koltira's Newfound Will beats Draughr hands down this tier, and probably in Tier 20 too
    KJBW is a solid stat stick for both specs
    Perseverance of the Ebon Marty wrecked Death March completely in 7.1.5 (And is probably still a lot better than Death March in 7.2 even after the nerf)
    Prydaz is a solid stat stick for both specs
    Sephuz is a solid stat stick for both specs

    Overall, both specs are in decent places with regards to legendaries I think
    nerf to the helm plus buff to the unholy helm.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by PaCoz View Post
    I just dont understand where this "unholy is more rng" rumor comes from when BoS is almost completely reliant on RNG, and not even simple RNG as in "how many procs" but "how many" AND "when".
    UH has to deal with 3 resources vs just 2 of frost. And its the wounds which the RNG comes from for example will two FS give me my 6 wounds to APOC or will it not or will my pet's attack give me a wound or will it not, same for our tier set with DC. It's the way wounds play out in the game that I've noticed varies my dps.

    I've main frost for my guild's raids and speced BoS and RNG doesn't play that big of a factor with it. Other than making a mistake and using BoS at the wrong time, I've rarely noticed my dps fluctuating like it does playing UH.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by PaCoz View Post
    I just dont understand where this "unholy is more rng" rumor comes from when BoS is almost completely reliant on RNG, and not even simple RNG as in "how many procs" but "how many" AND "when".

    unholy rng
    runic corruption
    festering wounds
    virulent plague
    sudden doom
    scourge the unbeliever
    fallen crusader (to a lesser extent but still rng)
    scourge of worlds
    double doom
    shambler
    armies of the damned (to a very low extent)
    and the new trait Black Claws.

    optional
    instructor's fourth lesson
    uvanimor
    draugr
    castigator
    infected claws
    dark arbiter (this is in the optional because its a talent and i put it as rng because the whole premise of her doing damage is if you can pool and get good rng on sudden doom. you can choose to not include it as sudden doom is already there but just pointing it out.

    frost rng
    runic empowerment (that has a relic trait that increases the % chance mind you)
    killing machine
    rime (with a tier set that increases the chance)
    crystalline swords
    hypothermia
    overpowered

    optional
    murderous efficiency (we use it, but its a talent so its optional)
    koltira



    thats unholy's 11 (or 9) with optional 6 and even tho i said they're optional most ppl have the 2 rng legendaries. and frost 6 with 2 optional

    the absolute LOWEST rng sources for unholy is 9 while the HIGHEST rng sources for frost is 8.

    THAT is what ppl mean when they say unholy has more RNG. and if you're talking about the rng of frost during BOS, the reason why the legendary ring is so strong and why convergence was so good this patch is because a majority of the runes that supplies rune power for BOS comes from Hungering Rune weapon.

    edit: forgot the tier 19 set for unholy
    Last edited by garonne; 2017-03-30 at 04:30 PM.

  7. #87
    Amusingly, the people complaining about RNG that keep piling on source after source (ZOMG 9 SOURCES OF RNG!!) are invalidating their own argument that DPS output is unpredictable as a result...

  8. #88
    It's looking fine, but the new traits are pretty uninspired, and incredibly counter intuitive.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Zensunni View Post
    Amusingly, the people complaining about RNG that keep piling on source after source (ZOMG 9 SOURCES OF RNG!!) are invalidating their own argument that DPS output is unpredictable as a result...
    what the heck are you talking about? i'm the only one who said there's 9 sources of rng so where have i said anything about the dps output and its predictability?

  10. #90
    Oh god here we go again... Can we, please, stop this comparison ? It's getting old.

    Btw fixed it for you :
    Quote Originally Posted by Redclass View Post
    Or they, you know, prefer to play Frost because:
    1) me big dps, me smash, me kill, me greatest hero, you bow. All. Surrender.
    Let's be honest here... How many of you would still be playing that BoS playstyle if it was last on the DPS ranking ?...
    Right, now what if it was doing slightly less DPS than Unholy ?
    And what about if frost BoS was doing better than unholy but still worse than MG ?

    The majority will simply take the spec with the most DPS. Plain and simple.

    Please, can we stop comparing the 2 specs ? They're both fun. There's no need to insult eachother. I'm getting really tired of hearing the same refrain.

  11. #91
    If I might be so bold, post your suggestions for 7.2.5 here. They are starting to get ready for 7.2.5.

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753855932

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Draugr View Post
    Unholy its a dead specc, and u see that when u go to class hall everyday -- 99% of the DK's are Frost. Its the reality.

    Dont know why, Blizzard wants it like this. Its a shame because Unholy got a fun gameplay, badass artifacts (best artifacts design), cool pets, but..its a dead specc for high end raiding.

    For PVP its ok, slow move yes, but i like.

    I mainly a Unholy DK, but im a casual player.
    Didnt touched frost this xpac, i like 2hand weapons
    How high is high end raiding? 1/10 mythic? 5/10 mythic? 10/10 mythic?

  13. #93
    I started the expansion as UH, but all the RNG was just too much for me. The opener getting ruined by not getting enough FW etc.

    I've always enjoyed UH, but enough is enough. They need to remove some of the rng to the spec, and it will probably be fun again.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    what the heck are you talking about? i'm the only one who said there's 9 sources of rng so where have i said anything about the dps output and its predictability?
    Generally speaking, a system with a lot of sources of randomness will ultimately be fairly predictable. If UH had a few sources of huge RNG, an individual would have a lot of RNG based parse variation. Due to UH's large number of sources of randomness however, it mostly washes out, and the claims of RNG affecting performance in boss fights this expansion have largely been nonsense. UH has a lot of randomness in its gameplay mechanics, sure, but not in performance. People just like to complain.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    How high is high end raiding? 1/10 mythic? 5/10 mythic? 10/10 mythic?
    Probably 4/10 Mythic since spellblade is the first boss with a DPS requirements. The second set of arcane adds shows no mercy.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Redclass View Post
    Probably 4/10 Mythic since spellblade is the first boss with a DPS requirements. The second set of arcane adds shows no mercy.
    spellblade isn't any more of a dps check than krosus is these days. Also, unholy is actually not bad for this fight due to the AOE/cleave.

  17. #97
    Deleted
    Fixed it for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    unholy rng
    runic corruption => yes
    festering wounds => yes
    virulent plague => no => 30% chance to erupt and deal Shadow damage divided among nearby enemies => nice RnG for ST !
    sudden doom => yes
    scourge the unbeliever => no => artifact talent only usefull on AoE rotation with DnD and can be ignored in ST
    fallen crusader (to a lesser extent but still rng) => no => solid 68% uptime in every fight => and why speak about Falle crusader for Uh but not for Frost?
    scourge of worlds => yes and no if you play with Necrosis
    double doom => no, just no => dont speak two time about sudden doom thank you
    shambler => no => who realy care about this shambler RnG (1% of dps)? you realy leave Uh cuz this shambler?
    armies of the damned (to a very low extent) => no => where is the Rng? wtf => its just 3 debuff applied by your ghouls
    and the new trait Black Claws. => yes

    optional
    instructor's fourth lesson => yes, realy big RnG
    uvanimor => No => same than scourge the unbeliever only usefull on AoE rotation with DnD and can be ignored in ST
    draugr => No => who played with this since 7.1.5 and T19
    castigator => No => please, dont be stupid, CS Build is THE build
    infected claws => No => Necrosis for ST and Infected Claw only for Cleave fight like Botanist so the Rng is realy less important (Like Uvanimor and scourge the unbeliever)
    dark arbiter => No => Wtf dude
    Se we have 5 Rng + 1 (who nobody has atm => last artifact talent) and not 17 Rng !!!

    There is some player who like Uh gameplay => no problem
    There is some player who like Frost gameplay => no problem

    And there is people like you who say 150% bullshit about Uh because he cant play it.
    Speak about "Too much Rng Uh" It's like looking for excuses because you dont get to dps properly (I do not have Legs T_T, I do not have ilvl T_T, I'm not lucky too T_T and other people get all the luck).

    Growth up and learns to think
    Last edited by mmoc85daa5d3ad; 2017-04-03 at 10:02 AM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Zensunni View Post
    Generally speaking, a system with a lot of sources of randomness will ultimately be fairly predictable. If UH had a few sources of huge RNG, an individual would have a lot of RNG based parse variation. Due to UH's large number of sources of randomness however, it mostly washes out, and the claims of RNG affecting performance in boss fights this expansion have largely been nonsense. UH has a lot of randomness in its gameplay mechanics, sure, but not in performance. People just like to complain.
    ok, to address this

    1.) this was my original statement
    this is kinda of 2 prong. Its simplier, but unholy is also more rng which a lot of ppl dont like (and to make it worse, another fucking rng gold talent.)
    2.) this was a person's response
    I just dont understand where this "unholy is more rng" rumor comes from when BoS is almost completely reliant on RNG, and not even simple RNG as in "how many procs" but "how many" AND "when".
    3.)i responded with the amount of sources of rng to show that it wasn't a rumor, then...

    4.)here comes your comment
    Amusingly, the people complaining about RNG that keep piling on source after source (ZOMG 9 SOURCES OF RNG!!) are invalidating their own argument that DPS output is unpredictable as a result...
    5.)i responded, then you responded ( i dont need to copy those)
    My whole argument was that there are more sources of rng for unholy. more sources means less control imo. when there's less control some ppl tend to not like that and instead choose something else.

    so again, where in my statement did i mention dps output and its predictability?

    HOWEVER,
    to address your response as to more sources means washing out, that is NOT exactly correct. more separate and equivalent sources of rng means its smooths out (which is what i think you're trying to say here), however, Unholy's sources of rng aren't equivalent and sometimes not separate, so it isn't smooth.

    one such source of wide swing rng is the bracers and the amount of wounds they pop.
    another is dark arbiter with sudden doom. you can get varying amounts of damage from your Valkyrie depending on if you get lucky with sudden dooms. i've seen swings from 4.5 million to 12+ million damage (granted 12 mill was with hero). if you cut out hero, you're probably at around 9-10 million just from sudden doom procs.

    ofcourse rng or no rng, ppl just gonna play whats higher dps. however if they're close, ppl are gonna play what they find either a. easier or b. more fun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Quenthel View Post
    Fixed it for everyone.



    Se we have 5 Rng + 1 (who nobody has atm => last artifact talent) and not 17 Rng !!!

    There is some player who like Uh gameplay => no problem
    There is some player who like Frost gameplay => no problem

    And there is people like you who say 150% bullshit about Uh because he cant play it.
    Speak about "Too much Rng Uh" It's like looking for excuses because you dont get to dps properly (I do not have Legs T_T, I do not have ilvl T_T, I'm not lucky too T_T and other people get all the luck).

    Growth up and learns to think
    you clearly have missed what i said. sources of rng are sources of rng, whether they are good or bad, they are still sources of RNG so yes virulent plague is a source of rng, also i never specified for aoe/single target.

    sudden doom and double doom are completely separate. sudden doom can proc and you can proc double doom. double doom is dependent upon sudden doom but it's its own source of rng.

    yup, forgot about fallen for frost.

    idk what your agenda is, but you sound like a whiny child who hasn't gotten their way and is mad at the world. I like unholy, i play unholy every chance i get if its not going to hinder my progression, however, im not an idiot (unlike some ppl) who chooses to believe the rotation is perfect and minimize the amount of rng sources the spec has which some provide a wide swing. If you read the full conversation of where my first comment was made (on the same page you made your comment) you would see that my whole point stemmed from WHY frost is the more common spec to play and an answer to
    "I just dont understand where this "unholy is more rng" rumor comes from
    In closing, i'm sure you have your own agenda or motive, because i noticed the same way you picked apart unholy, you did not do the same to frost to further your own reasoning. according to your logic, Rime, crystaline swords and hypothermia wouldn't be needed to be counted as well as murderous efficiency. so whats what? 5 +1 vs 3.. still looks like less to me.

    anyway, have a wonderful day.
    Last edited by garonne; 2017-04-03 at 03:05 PM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Quenthel View Post
    Fixed it for everyone.



    Se we have 5 Rng + 1 (who nobody has atm => last artifact talent) and not 17 Rng !!!

    There is some player who like Uh gameplay => no problem
    There is some player who like Frost gameplay => no problem

    And there is people like you who say 150% bullshit about Uh because he cant play it.
    Speak about "Too much Rng Uh" It's like looking for excuses because you dont get to dps properly (I do not have Legs T_T, I do not have ilvl T_T, I'm not lucky too T_T and other people get all the luck).

    Growth up and learns to think
    What a bunch of inane bullshit.

    You can't just change the definition of RNG to suit your own position.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    5.)i responded, then you responded ( i dont need to copy those)
    My whole argument was that there are more sources of rng for unholy. more sources means less control imo. when there's less control some ppl tend to not like that and instead choose something else.
    This is a fair point I suppose, but in practice I think what you are referring to as 'control' is a concept that comes through in gameplay due to synergy, namely taking advantage of it or failing to. I suppose something like doing a proper opener would fall into this category, and there you'd have a valid gripe when you get screwed on wounds.

    But tbh, missing out on your opener being perfect now and then isn't that big a deal, and the people that act like the world is ending cause their opener got messed up are probably just bad and looking for an excuse for their low DPS (I've had ~90% parses where my opener was off).

    In general though, I think a lack of feeling in control with any spec is a matter of synergy, mobility, and the contents of what the spec's skills do. For example, I think UH has a good amount of control for a PvE DPS spec due to the ability to AMS damage, heal, and dps at range. With proper setup, the spike/aoe thing on Tichondrius for example is like a 5% reduction in DPS as any decent player has 8 wounds up for it and goes into a Necrosis/DC dump while they 'hide'.

    Lastly, anecdotally, I've raided quite a bit this expansion and i just don't see this RNG in my outright performance. My DPS on bosses is largely similar every pull, and when it's very high or low, it's identifiable as a result of my good or bad playing. I think the RNG of the spec is passive enough, and small enough in terms of its effect on DPS output that it's not a problem, as compared to something like roll the bones, which is high level and has a huge impact on DPS. With the incoming death coil change, I think Unholy is about to have one of the most satisfying rotations in the game, and I'm jusssst about to a place where I'd tell people that don't like the RNG of UH to just go play another spec. In terms of gameplay design, UH is a success - kudos to the dev team for finally putting the last piece into place (the DC change).

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