Horde and Alliance, Well that was pointless

[OIS]

I don't get what you're saying?

Evidently.

You don't like video games?

I do.

Because if you play any game with multiple iterations, it's basically a big bad lining up to die over and over again. There will never be an expansion dedicated to faction conflict because who would win/lose? There would be faction specific content, so much less content for most players who focus on one faction, or it would cost too much. Although the idea sounds cool, it's not a good business decision.

I didn't dispute that. I disputed the claim that faction conflict is retarded. It's not. I find it better, more fulfilling than downing one big bad after another.

[n8four]

Consider all the fighting the Horde and the Alliance have taken part of. They've been at the forefront of every major war since the First War, and they've nearly destroyed themselves in what I call the Fourth War (Cata-MoP).

In my headcanon, the reason for the garrisons in WoD was because the official military had no resources, so they had to delegate the command of that campaign to specific and notable champions. Now, in Legion, it has been clearly shown that both the Horde and the Alliance are broken, thus why the orders have united to stop this invasion.

Garrisons were established because the portal was closed and we were shut off from MU Azeroth. Wasn't that the case? Your headcanon could coincide with that too I guess.

I didn't dispute that. I disputed the claim that faction conflict is retarded. It's not. I find it better, more fulfilling than downing one big bad after another.

I gotcha. My opinion is just that I'd like to see the faction system evolve as it would in a world constantly at war with each other and outside forces.

[Keydiam]

I didn't dispute that. I disputed the claim that faction conflict is retarded. It's not. I find it better, more fulfilling than downing one big bad after another.

Could you explain to me what do you think is fulfilling on this conflict? Because, personally I found the faction conflict incredibly boring. No side can win, and the...well "was" (more like skirmish) is shown via a few NPCs battling each other. I never felt the big faction war in PvE or the story. A 40vs40 AV feels more like a war, than anything that was shown ingame up until now.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Honestly, I think this patch is just as much, if not a bigger middle finger to the people who actually want cross-faction play available. Literally, everything going on in this expansion and especially this patch is all about how Azeroth is at it's best when it is united and everything we are doing is more or less cross faction anyways. But you can't actually group with friends of the opposite faction for some asinine reason. It is literally only a gameplay restriction at this point. They even said in the Q&A at the last blizzcon that they didn't like that it prevented people from playing together but then just gave the arbitrary "but horde vs alliance is too important."

Fast forward to Legion and there is a huge theme of unity and how us working together is great. The online faction conflict was in Stormheim and it wasn't even the central plot thread of the zone. All that said, merging or elimination the factions is still going too far IMO. As this thread shows there are some people who like the faction conflict. As someone who plays both sides, I also like that I can do the same expansion leveling but get a pretty different story, though not really in Legion beyond class hall stuff. It would be weird for Gnomes to run around Orgrimmar or Taurens to get stuck in doorways of Ironforge. But there is zero good reason that players shouldn't be able to choose to do PVE stuff cross faction. Even before legion, it has always been the same end game content regardless of faction. There are what 2 to 3 fights that change in the game based on faction?

If the lore isn't even supporting the faction war anymore why is the only place that is enforced the place where it would benefit gameplay the most?

Good, I don't want that. Its not a good idea. Games such as that exist, go play them.

[Thetruth1400]

Opposing factions coming together for a mutual enemy is a popular and frequently used plot device by Blizzard.

A little too frequent if you ask me. Literally every expansion is the same, "Oh we've got to come together for the greater good!" "Oh here's an extremely minor skirmish that doesn't matter!"

- Vanilla WoW was the only time it really felt like Us vs Them. PvP cropping up everywhere, No sharing of the ways of the Shaman / Paladin across factions, Gates of Ahn'Qiraj.

- TBC had the chance with the Aldor and Scryers, but they weren't faction specific so it didn't matter. Likewise, we all ended up coming together for the Sunwell.

- WotLK had probably the most potential ever. The Undead betraying everyone could have been a massive catalyst to start something major. It continued for a bit with the 3.2 patch Call of the Crusade, and slowed as we went into ICC. After that, it kind of fizzled out.

- After that, the Cataclysm happened, and guess what? We're all friends now!

- What's this? Some new lands, lets all explore it and grab it for our factions! Things heated up in 5.1, but what's this? Betrayal from within the Horde! Lets all be friends and take the big, bad Garrosh down. In possibly the most stupid move ever, the Alliance doesn't sit back and let the Horde dismantle itself. Likewise, when all is said and done, the Horde is near destroyed, in shambles, and leaderless, the Alliance goes, "Now don't do anything bad, we'll be watching." No "We're taking back what's ours" no "You owe us or we will end you right now." nothing, just walked away.

- Oh look, time for some time travel because the traitor wasn't killed outright. We're all friends because this alternate timeline is linked to our timeline, even though we severed the link in the first zone. Can't let these guys potentially rise up and find a way to come get us again, time for some good old fashion orc genocide. At the end of the day, we let the leader of the orcs go because "Hey, he was sorry and he was tricked", besides Gul'dan started summoning demons. Friends right?

- Legion time, lets all band together because demons. "Oh, Sylvanas is going off on her own again? Eh, it's okay, she's our leader now." "Not on my watch" - Genn. That minor skirmish aside, we're all friends, fighting for the common good again.

Literally every expansion. Frankly, it's the only story they know how to tell. "Have a little skirmish, then be friends."

Then again, it's Blizzard, so high quality story telling and originality isn't exactly their strong suit.

It's time to just merge it all in to one faction, with some minor story lines here and there about race skirmishes. Faction fighting is outdated and hasn't been the driving force for the story ever.

[Hctaz]

Not just that even, the most focus on faction we got in this expansion was sylvanas and genn trying to kill each other, and in the end it just felt like a distraction to the main plot, and nothing would be lost if you managed to ignore it.

But the focus hasn't shifted away. It's impossible for Blizzard to make this apparent properly because the world isn't ever shifting like in real life, but the whole point of this expansion isn't that the factions are working together but rather that the classes are working together regardless of faction. I'm pretty sure the factions are still pissed at each other but they can't provide that content at the same time as they provide the main story content.

If this were real life then basically the class leaders would have said a big "Fuck you" to the conflict and we'd probably be ignoring a war elsewhere. You have to remember that a lot of the factions are not actually classed. Some of them are body guards or generals and whatnot and they have very little to do with us right now. Notice how none of the faction leaders are involved in the Broken Shore. It's Khadgar and the classes.

[Deleted]

Does anyone get the overall feeling that this expansion was built upon the notice that factions like the horde and alliance suck and can't really do what matters, and only when factions willing to work together come together do things get done, making them pointless.

I mean, really, when you get down to it, this has always been the principle of what saved the world in warcraft, the whole huggy squeezy factions coming together stuff. In the burning crusade, it was draenei and blood elves coming together for an attack on the sunwell. In wrath it was the argent crusade bringing factions together under its roof. In cata, it was a certain faction leader ditching his role and going solo with some neutral dragons. In pandaland, it was the two factions for once focusing on a single goal and yet even after that tension just went right back to the same old crap. In wod, it was captain khadgar and khadgarters fighting to save the planet of draenor.
And this expansion, this one didn't just push how pointless the two factions where, it showed how failing they were as a force, and only with the combined power of looove from the class order halls did the forces of azeroth get together, raise Illidan, get some uber weapons they all shared, and at this point, the horde and alliance factions just seem so pointless to wows story.

Blizzard will never be able to make neutral factions for the players, the two faction system is to ingrained into it. But do you get the impression the writers are just giving the middle finger to the old red and blue sides now?

Well, it is the Alliance and Horde working together in every class hall, so apparently we can.

[Pawstruck]

That's been the recurring theme of WoW since Thrall and Jaina. It is a parable for real life, where every bitter conflict includes rational people on both sides who try to make peace, only to have their efforts thwarted by those determined to fight. We all have both instincts inside us, like the old Native American story about the two wolves - the one that always wants to fight for any perceived slight and the more honorable one who only fights when absolutely necessary.

No. No no no no NO.

This hippie pacifist bullshit is a parody of virtue and CERTAINLY of the truth of human wars. There have been and will continue to be just wars (although they are rare) and life is way more complex than this watered-down Disney fairy-tale Ghandiism that you people endlessly peddle.

True tales of heroes and bravery have been based on classical ideas of heroic virtue meeting the villains of life. Sometimes fate gives them the middle finger and they prevail (Odysseus), but it's not because they learned the value of fucking friendship and carebear unity... it's because they were wise, just, and tenacious.

I guess the virtues have no place in the fucking matriarchy of modernity.

[Deleted]

The factions need to go for both gameplay and lore reasons.

Gameplay: who doesn't have friends who play on the other faction by now? It sucks not being able to play with them.

Lore: There's been like 14 years of kind of on again off again war that's gotten really dumb by now.

Move on, merge factions.

And have the most boring game ever.

Next exp pack a big bad NPC arrives. And we can then repeat that forever.
Atleast with factions you can give the story a twist.

And the day i see Gnomes in Horde cities i will jump of a cliff and jion Garrosh in the after life by a unsub.

[Triceratrozer]

Alliance and Horde exist to justify PvP. Except they don't need to justify it. Other games have PvP without faction. OR factions interacting together freely, but then PvP on the side.

In WoW the factions, or rather the barriers they bring, are frankly kinda pointless.

[Ramz]

I know I'm nitpicking, but this is really false statement:

- What's this? Some new lands, lets all explore it and grab it for our factions! Things heated up in 5.1, but what's this? Betrayal from within the Horde! Lets all be friends and take the big, bad Garrosh down.

It was not betrayal, Garrosh was playing with old Gods powers, that was the only reason he got rebelion. Vol'Jin couldn't give a damn about Alliance as he flat out told to you that he preffers for Divine bell to be in Garrosh hands rather than Alliance. Using Old Gods powers ALWAYS backfires sooner or later. So it was obvious he had to go down.
Especially, when he was treating Horde like crap (testing dangerous stuff on gobbos, putting martial law on Echo Isles out of paranoia, etc.

In possibly the most stupid move ever, the Alliance doesn't sit back and let the Horde dismantle itself. Likewise, when all is said and done, the Horde is near destroyed, in shambles, and leaderless, the Alliance goes, "Now don't do anything bad, we'll be watching." No "We're taking back what's ours" no "You owe us or we will end you right now." nothing, just walked away.

Horde wouldn't dismantle itself(actually it was about to dismantle itself during Garrosh reign), they reelcted new leader right away. And yeah it seemed silly that Alliance didn't use oportiunity but at least they should negotiate something for themselves in return, which would bring new tenshions. Wasted opportiunity for good faction conflict vanilla style.

[OIS]

Could you explain to me what do you think is fulfilling on this conflict? Because, personally I found the faction conflict incredibly boring. No side can win, and the...well "was" (more like skirmish) is shown via a few NPCs battling each other. I never felt the big faction war in PvE or the story. A 40vs40 AV feels more like a war, than anything that was shown ingame up until now.

I think the idea itself isn't boring, there's great potential. But how it's handled in WoW is disappointing, due to the game being an MMO. Status quo must be maintained to a certain degree. Which defeats the purpose of faction conflict, of course people would get bored of it after a while, since nothing meaningful happens in that story. Ending of MoP is an atrocious example.

But it's more like I'm choosing the lesser of two evils. I honestly can't stand having another villain show up to destroy the world every year anymore, it completely breaks the immersion for me and I'm no longer interested. Faction conflict makes more sense to me, its aims are more reasonable to me(of course, Garrosh ruined that too).

I think WoW needs to get away from spaceships and cosmic stuff, and put more emphasis on what made Warcraft a thing in the first place: Horde vs. Alliance. Perhaps reducing the scale of conflicts would help, if it's not an all-out war less would be at stake, and losses would be more affordable, the story could decide a victor that way. I don't know for sure though, I'm making this stuff up at 4 am here, bear with me.

[kencloudli]

As a player who played Warcraft I onwards, i think the faction war is slowly diminishing. Like what is said in OP, I think Blizzard is trying to remove faction war. After ending the conflict with Genn, Sylvanas, Jaina and Rommath, I don't think there will be any faction war left. Blizzard has two choices: straight forward faction war for the rest of the game or remove it after the conflict has been resolved. I'm leaning to the later one.

[Scottyjscizzle]

Honestly, I would much rather have the factions dissolve entirely. Allow guilds/people to play with whomever they want. Could still justify pvp. "The Gilneans need help pushing forsaken invaders, who do you want to help!". Would allow for the player-base not to be split in half based on what are now almost laughable things.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Honestly, I would much rather have the factions dissolve entirely. Allow guilds/people to play with whomever they want. Could still justify pvp. "The Gilneans need help pushing forsaken invaders, who do you want to help!". Would allow for the player-base not to be split in half based on what are now almost laughable things.

or they could just work on improving the writing instead of the bullshit rewrites to justify such a lazy and uninspired decision.

[Igneous42]

Good, I don't want that. Its not a good idea. Games such as that exist, go play them.

Games also exist that make PVP conflict way more central and meaningful. PVP has never influenced PVE in a meaningful way in WoW and faction restrictions are literally only left because of people unwilling to let go of the idea that WoW is not a World PVP centric game, never really has been but especially hasn't been since things like Dungeon Finder and CRZ came out.

[Zandalariprelate]

To be honest the Horde and Alliance war every expansion is becoming some tedious daily work, in any case I would like something new like the Ebon Blade/plage hype they are building against the paladins and maybe priests

[Friendlyimmolation]

Games also exist that make PVP conflict way more central and meaningful. PVP has never influenced PVE in a meaningful way in WoW and faction restrictions are literally only left because of people unwilling to let go of the idea that WoW is not a World PVP centric game, never really has been but especially hasn't been since things like Dungeon Finder and CRZ came out.

Factions don't exist only because of Pvp. Stop wishing for this weird shit like blood elves in the Alliance, Night elves in the horde etc.

[CaptainV]

The factions are meaningless now but primarily because of the fact the game is just not engaging anymore on that front. What we honestly need are "new" factions to replace the old ones, built on ideals, not on species.

Id like the idea that Illidan becomes leader of the Legion and Anduin leader of the army of light, this could give us a Magnito vs Xavier style approach to the story where we have to pick weather we fight for the new Legion and Illidan on a path of conquest across the stars, or Anduin, who would seek to unite everyone under one banner through the path of peace and tolerance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The factions are meaningless now but primarily because of the fact the game is just not engaging anymore on that front. What we honestly need are "new" factions to replace the old ones, built on ideals, not on species.

Id like the idea that Illidan becomes leader of the Legion and Anduin leader of the army of light, this could give us a Magnito vs Xavier style approach to the story where we have to pick weather we fight for the new Legion and Illidan on a path of conquest across the stars, or Anduin, who would seek to unite everyone under one banner through the path of peace and tolerance.

The factions are built on ideals...