[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[ReD-EyeD]

It is absolutely terrifying because we will be a tank with a flat hard cap on mitigation.

Well, it has been said that the cap wouldn't be achievable with normal tanking and will be there just to not cheese some mechanics. This is still an issue that has to be addressed somehow.

[keqe]

Well, it has been said that the cap wouldn't be achievable with normal tanking and will be there just to not cheese some mechanics. This is still an issue that has to be addressed somehow.

What blizzard intends often tends to not happen which is why I am worried.

For example for 100% stagger pool cap not to be a problem when tanking Mythic Guldan (I mean auto attacks, no scythe/bond cheesing even) you'd have to have 12-14M HP to not just reach the cap and die. That can be lower if they add more armor (which comes with another problem regarding armor piercing mechanics).

So either we end up with ridiculous health, ridiculous armor, or combination of both which just makes us a bear. Great design.

[Marrilaife]

Also, who the heck is Dave?

The aggro statue.

Also, I wasn't talking about super easy stuff where you don't even need healer's attention, but the middle stuff where you can't purify the damage if its not accumulating fast enough where over tanks don't have such limitations.

If you want a tank that can run mid-pack content without caring about a healer, you should consider a DK / DH / Paladin.

Hurray, we'll have the 6th Warrior tank with 7.2.5 then.
I'm already seeing the next HFC before my inner eyes: Brewmaster on the bench until content is nerfed to the ground.

Good god, will you tell me then why the heck when I returned to raiding in HFC every single guild that even recruited a tank wanted Monk / DK only?

Anyway yea, I agree Blizzard has issues balancing stuff, it's a constant yo-yo of overbuffing / overnerfing.

Oh look, we reached that point in the expansion again where blizzard is trying to combat stagger cheesing.

You know because nothing was ever learned from MoP and WoD, and stagger was never redesigned like it should have been during legion beta. Instead they put another bandaid on it by making it share charges with purify which has quickly faded into pointlessness again.

Stop trying to bandaid a broken mechanic and acting surprised when it it reaches broken levels all over again in every single expansion.

If you don't want stagger cheesing shit then get off your lazy asses and redesign brewmaster tanking. Otherwise live with the monster you created, don't try to make our gameplay terrible for your own damn mistake.

True, baseline monks take more damage than other tanks, so stagger is their saving grace to prevent one-shots and smooth the damage.

But the example Blizzard said with "cheesing" solo soaking fel-scythe... Well how about they don't design bosses around it? Nearly every kill vid I watched uses the tactic with solo soaking the max energy scythe. The reason majority of guilds are using druid + monk is not only because they allow cheesing specific stuff, but because this cheesing is kinda necessary to actually kill the boss while it's relevant.

- - - Updated - - -

So either we end up with ridiculous health, ridiculous armor, or combination of both which just makes us a bear. Great design.

Yep, Blizzard designs most raids around having 2 tanks (1-3 in rare situations), so no idea who in their HQ thought it was a great plan to introduce 6 tank classes, what you end up with is either they're too similar to each other, or some are completely broken (too strong / too weak / too situational) because they tried to inject artificial differences between them just to "dehomogenize" tanking.

Tbh, out of the 2 I'd rather take "too similar" than "broken OP / worthless". Because the second case ends up with FOTM roulette.

[Grobovshik]

Tbh, out of the 2 I'd rather take "too similar" than "broken OP / worthless". Because the second case ends up with FOTM roulette.

At least situational tank can feel special in particular fight. Some dps classes have a lot more cleave than the others, some healers cd are almost mandatory (shaman totems) etc, while tanks should be like dummies for bosses, so other people can have their fun. Nice game design.

[Deleted]

Good god, will you tell me then why the heck when I returned to raiding in HFC every single guild that even recruited a tank wanted Monk / DK only?

Ever tried Monk without massively overgearing Mythic HFC?
Without 4P and absurd high iLv you getting smashed into the ground without any way to avoid that.
Hell, even Heroic Archimonde was true pain if you run there with only BRF Mythic Gear and no HFC 4P.

Guess you came back while the +10 iLv Nerf was already active and no one cares about progress.

[Marrilaife]

At least situational tank can feel special in particular fight. Some dps classes have a lot more cleave than the others, some healers cd are almost mandatory (shaman totems) etc, while tanks should be like dummies for bosses, so other people can have their fun. Nice game design.

The issue is there are 5 healer classes, and around 3-5 healer slots per each fight, there are even more dps slots, so some "situational" or "works well only in syngergy with x" is more acceptable for a healer or a dps spec.

With tanks we came to a situation top progression tanks have to keep complete roster of tank classes and swap as the nerfbat swings, while the semi-casual ones who don't want to fotm reroll every major balance patch are stuck in limbo, like warriors / dhs are now.

Also while most guilds do keep backup dps to slot in and out, and maybe even a backup healer (and not just an offspec to cover when main healer calls in sick / isp issues), very few guilds keep backup tanks, they might have a melee dps able to cover in an offspec, but not one with fully fleshed out artifact etc. So guilds stuck with sub par tank setup are even more screwed than ones with a few sub par dps specs. Having a non-fotm dps like I dunno.. what's the opposite of fotm atm? feral druid?... on the roster is not as big of a hit like having a non-fotm tank because the tank is 50% of the tank setup while the non-fotm dps is only 15% of your lineup.

I don't even know why did they add DH tanks, is there any fight they can "feel special" in? The whole concept would be fine if:
1. Some tank classes didn't feel inferior / redundant in every situation, never having this nebulous moment of shine you speak of.
2. Every tank could handle every fight reasonably well, just some would be slightly better in some occasions. It can't be some bosses literally require x tank class or bust.

[Grobovshik]

With tanks we came to a situation top progression tanks have to keep complete roster of tank classes and swap as the nerfbat swings, while the semi-casual ones who don't want to fotm reroll every major balance patch are stuck in limbo, like warriors / dhs are now.

Difference between tanks is not that big, no guilds are stuck because of their tank setup. Top 50 (or 100 guilds) shouldnt have taken into consideration while applying class balance. The only tank with problems is DH, other tanks (even dks) killed Guldan pre 7.2.

[Marrilaife]

Without 4P and absurd high iLv you getting smashed into the ground without any way to avoid that.
Hell, even Heroic Archimonde was true pain if you run there with only BRF Mythic Gear and no HFC 4P.

Well yeah, if we're talking world top progression then I have no experience in that, I remember heroic HFC didn't drop in a week like heroics do in Legion and many guilds took time to take down hc Archi and then mythic Gorefiend, so they were coming into upper citadel mythic with good coverage of 4-sets, and the meme was generally "brace yourselves, unkillable Brewmasters with 4-set are coming".

Difference between tanks is not that big, no guilds are stuck because of their tank setup.

The problem I see now is not only world top guilds are using bear + monk or bear + bear setup, yes, we are used to seeing world top guilds cheesing stuff like boomkin + hunter stacking on Blackhand, or Spriest stacking at the start of Legion, or Mage / Rogue / Ret stacking for Spine of Deathwing, problem starts when your average slowly crawling through mythic guilds have to do the same because it's the only valid tactic for a boss, and if you don't have the specific classes, you're stuck until some butcher level nerfs arrive.

Let's take star augur, he got some big nerfs allowing many guilds stuck on him to finally kill him. Taking this week logs, there are 233 druids, 80 monks but only 8 warriors and 9 demon hunter tanks. This is just stupid, I can imagine world top guild expecting their tank to play a bear instead of a dh / warrior because he knows himself which class is the best anyway and will pick it without any hesitation or external pressure, he just wants to pick the best tool for the job being the extreme competitive player he is. Now imagine an average non-noob mythic raider who just played his warrior since vanilla and is very attached to it, or had a dream to play a demon hunter since Legion was announced. Now what, he's doomed to suck just so there can be "tank class fantasy" fulfilled. Great game design.

That "you can do it with a demon hunter / warrior" doesn't mean for those handful die-hards who decided to stick to their sub-par tanks throughout NH it wasn't a massive pita to actually pull it off and didn't cause extra progression wipes.

Tbh it's not just problem with tanks, there's an issue with healers too that Mistweavers and Discs are falling out of favour since TOV, but at least there are some Blizz posts they're looking into these specs for TOS.

[Grobovshik]

non-noob mythic raider who just played his warrior since vanilla.

Those people dont have any problems with boss mechanics. It mostly noobs/ people who dont want to play their char@ maximum potential (some tanks require this to beat encounter).

"problem starts when your average slowly crawling through mythic guilds have to do the same " Slowly crawling guilds got a lot of overgear, they dont need bear tanks to beat encounter.

"or had a dream to play a demon hunter since Legion was announced. " i wanted to reroll DH tank, i know that feel, but how it is even a thing in BREWMASTER discussion thread? Bears need to stop being better than every1 else and DH need a rework. Shield wall in a form of debuff to target,self-healing and avoidance focus? Really? Every1 undestands that class wont work on serious raiding when only EH/Mitigation is a thing.

[Marrilaife]

"problem starts when your average slowly crawling through mythic guilds have to do the same " Slowly crawling guilds got a lot of overgear, they dont need bear tanks to beat encounter.

Sadly not the case with NH, there are separate threads explaining the phenomenon in a detail, don't want to derail more.

i wanted to reroll DH tank, i know that feel, but how it is even a thing in BREWMASTER discussion thread? Bears need to stop being better than every1 else and DH need a rework.

Well you kinda started with the whole homogenization debate...

Anyway not sure if "monk is fine" if they nerf stagger, which they seem to plan to atm, it's gonna be an issue, the same as with warriors, they nerfed ignore pain and suddenly it became apparent that was all the spec was leaning on. The random dodge mastery has parallels to the warrior kit as well, what warrior cannot block, monk cannot dodge. They scrapped parts of the kit (100% purify, guard, expel harm being a rotational self heal) and put most of the spec power budget into stagger. I guess the mastery is some form of attempt to bake "agile fighter" fantasy, but like shuffle and elusive brew in the past it's kinda there, but no one really plays monk because of it, it's not a spec-defining aspect.

If they want to nerf stagger they should give monks extra tools and not just "buff hp / armor, done", we really don't want to go back to the times when the HP pool was the most important part of the tank.

[Tech614]

Bears need to stop being better than every1 else and DH need a rework. Shield wall in a form of debuff to target,self-healing and avoidance focus? Really? Every1 undestands that class wont work on serious raiding when only EH/Mitigation is a thing.

Bears wont be better then everyone else once mark gets nerfed. Their magic DR will actually be pretty bad once that happens. DH doesn't need a rework, they just need stronger base line tools(meta having some form of flat DR instead of armor and another short 20% type all dr cd).

These changes are basically happening because when mark gets it's promised nerfs monks would flat out take the druid spot on the throne. But it's like that every expansion because stagger always gets to a point where it gets stupid and blizzard never learns.

[Marrilaife]

These changes are basically happening because when mark gets it's promised nerfs monks would flat out take the druid spot on the throne. But it's like that every expansion because stagger always gets to a point where it gets stupid and blizzard never learns.

Well the issue is if stagger becomes weak what will monks fall back to? Mastery and artifact ability works on stuff that can be dodged / missed. Fortifying brew is just 1 cd to fit it all (similar case as warriors, except shield wall rest of their cds are not as good, yet they still have demo shout to fall back to), dampen harm got some reworks, still not sure if that good, zen med usability is limited unless legendary helmet (which is outclassed by other legendaries), while druids even if more vulnerable overall will still have barkskin, artifact and double survival instinct to plug the gaps. Druids will also still have thick skin passive (unless again nerfed), adaptive fur trait and frenzied regen.

[Inuyaki]

Ever tried Monk without massively overgearing Mythic HFC?
Without 4P and absurd high iLv you getting smashed into the ground without any way to avoid that.
Hell, even Heroic Archimonde was true pain if you run there with only BRF Mythic Gear and no HFC 4P.

Guess you came back while the +10 iLv Nerf was already active and no one cares about progress.

You only needed 4p, not "absurd high" itemlevel...
And it was so hard to get 4p in the first week /s

Monk was really strong in HFC

Edit
Will be interesting to see how this plays out. I have bad feeling... somehow I am glad that I reroll dmg

[Marrilaife]

somehow I am glad that I reroll dmg

You mean windwalker or a different class? Because judging from the community feedback Brewmaster was atm the only monk spec on the strong side, both healer and dps monks are saying they're in a bad spot... A bit disappointing because windwalker is one of the few melee I find having a nice feel to their rotation.

[Tech614]

Monk was really strong in HFC

Monk was okay in HFC, definitely not strong. Mannoroth and Archimonde mythic where both terrible fights for brewmasters and the hardest 2 fights in the instance.

Monk was nerfed into the ground before HFC and needed 4 piece bonus as a quick bandaid to even be viable. The 4 piece made them strong on a few fights but blood and prot pal where definitely shitting on brewmaster in HFC as a whole. I would say brew and gaurdian where about equals and prot war was certainly the worst.

[Herogamer555]

Don't give feedback here. Give it on the forums. Make they known how bad their decisions are. At least this way we can complain that they never listen to feedback when they go ahead with the changes anyway.

[Tech614]

Don't give feedback here. Give it on the forums. Make they known how bad their decisions are. At least this way we can complain that they never listen to feedback when they go ahead with the changes anyway.

Yea because that worked so well during the alpha/beta

The post was literally made by the biggest idiot developer they have who's reply to every complaint during pre legion release was "something something self heals something something you're strong trust me".

Surely he is going to listen to us now?

[keqe]

The guy plays WoW with tablet saying mouse is only needed for FPS games. Expectations for the guy are bottom of the barrel.

[Herogamer555]

Yea because that worked so well during the alpha/beta

The post was literally made by the biggest idiot developer they have who's reply to every complaint during pre legion release was "something something self heals something something you're strong trust me".

Surely he is going to listen to us now?

Believe me I know. I used to be a warrior, and if that community with so many more players can't get Celestalon to realize his stupid decisions, we have no hope. But still we have to try.

[Deleted]

It would be easy actually.
Change to "you can only stagger up to 100% of your HP per hit, rest goes to health.
Problem solved.
No additional Cap on stagger needed.
HP: 1000
Something does 1000 Damage? -> Stagger
1500? 1000 to stagger, 500 direct damage.
2000? Dead.

Additional fix: Fortifing brew now doubles the amount of damage you can stagger at once.

Then keep actual stagger pool without a cap.