Wax and Wane trait of spamming moonfire is now competitive to doing our normal rotati

[Cyous]

According to this genius, our new gold trait is supposed to fix everything (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...page=5#post-93). All feedback about poor balance dps is "feely". She keeps using that word but I don't think she knows what it means.

A 8-9% ST boost. That's about twice the magnitude of the design goal for most of those traits.

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Also, don't forget about Astral Power generation. It's about 25% SP per AP generated (Real number is ~27.7%).

Just because you do 1mil damage in a 1sec/GCD doesn't mean you'll do 1mil DPS after 5min.

[Deleted]

wax and wane was quite fun with stellar empowerment, fun was detected and removed, wax and wane is now quite useless. I would be happier if the stacks got us up to 8 ap per cast rather than damage itself, so then in high movement or when being the tactic bot of your raid you are not punished as much. A boomie can lose 1/3 of his astral power generation by being a back soaker in krosus, being the main trigger resolver in tichondrius or being feast dude on trilliax. So much punish for a class that even optimally isnt competing lul.

[Axola]

Someone help me understand those changes please,
As a moonkin who already has ~120% Stellar Empowerment buffs, (Now that SE doesn't buff Moonfire/Sunfire anymore); does this mean we're actually nerfed until we get the Circadian Invocation (4th gold perk in the artifact)

[Tauton]

Someone help me understand those changes please,
As a moonkin who already has ~120% Stellar Empowerment buffs, (Now that SE doesn't buff Moonfire/Sunfire anymore); does this mean we're actually nerfed until we get the Circadian Invocation (4th gold perk in the artifact)

it just doesn't affect the initial application, that's what it says.

[beaver1024]

Possibly?

https://i.imgur.com/tHv1XPw.png

That's the current rank 1 on Spellblade.

For balance druids. Nowhere near rank 1 overall.

[huth]

it just doesn't affect the initial application, that's what it says.

Which is mostly relevant in non-AE situations, so it actually shouldn't affect all that much outside of that specific playstyle they wanted to get rid off.

[beaver1024]

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Also, don't forget about Astral Power generation. It's about 25% SP per AP generated (Real number is ~27.7%).

Just because you do 1mil damage in a 1sec/GCD doesn't mean you'll do 1mil DPS after 5min.

Are you still referring to Circadian Invocation here? Not sure that trait generates additional Astral power. Also I'm not sure what're you're referring to in the final sentence, are you talking about burst dps? I'm not sure how that is relevant to balance druids since there is no burst dps as far as balance is concerned. If you're referring to other classes, according to Warcraft logs, it looks like burst DPS classes are sustaining much higher dps than balance druid throughout the entire fight. If you're making the claim that it evens out in the long run, well that isn't borne out by actual logs is it?

Circadian Invocation itself might compare favourably against other gold traits from other specs / classes. However that is not the entire story for our DPS is it? Saying that CI will make our DPS competitive is a tad disingenuous.

[Polarthief]

Someone help me understand those changes please,
As a moonkin who already has ~120% Stellar Empowerment buffs, (Now that SE doesn't buff Moonfire/Sunfire anymore); does this mean we're actually nerfed until we get the Circadian Invocation (4th gold perk in the artifact)

Only the DIRECT damage of MF/SF (and StFl; didn't even know it had direct) was removed from Stellar Emp, not the DoTs themselves.

This change was to prevent us from spamming MF/SF during Starfall, but yes, it is a slight (very slight) nerf pre-W&W.

[Cyous]

Are you still referring to Circadian Invocation here? Not sure that trait generates additional Astral power. Also I'm not sure what're you're referring to in the final sentence, are you talking about burst dps? I'm not sure how that is relevant to balance druids since there is no burst dps as far as balance is concerned. If you're referring to other classes, according to Warcraft logs, it looks like burst DPS classes are sustaining much higher dps than balance druid throughout the entire fight. If you're making the claim that it evens out in the long run, well that isn't borne out by actual logs is it?

Circadian Invocation itself might compare favourably against other gold traits from other specs / classes. However that is not the entire story for our DPS is it? Saying that CI will make our DPS competitive is a tad disingenuous.

Moonfire spam vs. Solar Wrath. Needs to account for Astral Power generation. In which case...the initial output might be high, but not the total effective damage. (Hence, 1mil hit vs 1mil DPS over 5min)

For CI, I only gave it's value. CI is a factor nonetheless. I'm in no mood to go over how this spec works with encounter design, toolkit/system designers, etc. This is just information.

[Zan15]

A 8-9% ST boost. That's about twice the magnitude of the design goal for most of those traits.

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Also, don't forget about Astral Power generation. It's about 25% SP per AP generated (Real number is ~27.7%).

Just because you do 1mil damage in a 1sec/GCD doesn't mean you'll do 1mil DPS after 5min.

How is something that is a flat 6% damage increase with a 9-11s ramp up time per mob...going to result in a 8% dps boost to ST?

maybe its early and the coffee has not hit the brain yet.

[thedeisel]

How is something that is a flat 6% damage increase with a 9-11s ramp up time per mob...going to result in a 8% dps boost to ST?

maybe its early and the coffee has not hit the brain yet.

I'm not 100% sure what @Cyous means but my guess is this.

CI gets multiplied through all of our other multipliers (buffs from mastery, artifact traits, etc.)

Suppose that our baseline damage before mastery/artifact traits, etc. is 100dps.
Suppose when you add up all our multipliers, they add up to a 40% buff.
So, now we're doing 140% of our baseline dps.

Now add in CI. 140*1.06 = 148.4.

Our DPS went from 140% of our baseline pre-multiplier dps to 148.4% of our baseline pre-multiplier dps. So, we gained 8.4% of our baseline pre-multiplier dps.

If I had to bet, I would bet that we'll still be very low single target dps (especially when you consider that our Single Target is getting considerably weaker in ToS with the new set bonuses compared to our AoE since we're losing two asymmetric benefits to our single target dps in our Nighthold set bonuses (+empowerment damge, +starsurge damage)).

Defending the status quo by pointing to our golden trait feels like ignoring the fact that every other spec is not only getting their golden trait but also gets two other traits that may benefit their single target dps. The current gaps on fights like Krosus between us and the median are just too big to be overcome by a golden trait when neither of our other new traits increases our single target dps.

Just looking at ranged:

Moonkin: 1 new trait (gold ring) benefits ST (and in a pretty significant way)

Affliction: first new trait and new golden ring benefit ST
Demo: all new traits benefit ST
Destro: I don't know how flame rift works, one trait doesn't look like a ST dps increase (exploding chaos bolts), one is a small ST increase (conflag hits harder)

Arcane: Small ST increase (missile crits, and more mana)
Frost: 2 traits benefit single target (ice lance hits harder, ebonbolt hits harder)
Fire: 2 traits benefit single target (longer burst window inside Combustion, more crit rating), but not the gold ring

BM: all traits incrase ST
MM: 2 traits benefit single target (More damage in Vulnerability window, artifact ability does more damage)

Shadow: All traits benefit ST

Ele: 2 traits benefit ST (earth shock hits a lot harder, their crits crit harder)

It looks to me like all ranged are getting meaningful single target increases.

[Cyous]

Okay, here's a an answer because I've explained it a hundred times and I'm getting annoyed:

6% to Nature. 6% to Arcane. 12.3% to Astral damage (this is confirmed).
It takes 9sec to fully stack at 33% spell Haste. (1% every 1.5sec | 2sec / (1+HastePct)).
Over 9sec, that average bonus is simply 3% nature/arcane damage or 6% for Astral damage.

An encounter may last anywhere from 4min-15min, call it 8min because that's normal. 8min is 480sec. That's 471sec of uptime on the maxed debuffs (98%). The remaining 9sec were 3%. Assuming 33% Haste, this means we have a maximum of 320 or 319 ticks (640 or 639 ticks, but it doesn't matter). 320 ticks * 6 = 1920. We know we lose 6 ticks due to ramp up time, but they are worth 3% on average (3). 6 * 3 = 18. 1920 - 18 = 1902.

So the effective debuff is 1902/1920 = 99% of 6% debuff.

This translates to a 6% debuff in single-target (shocking!). So we can just assume 12.3% for Astral damage because it's effective debuff is 99% of 1.06 * 1.06

This means CI is effectively a 6% increase outright, not including the bonus to Astral damage.

According to logs, Astral damage deals about 30-40% our of total damage in single-target. 30% for most players, 40% for those with ED.

12.3 * 0.3 = 3.69 / 2 = 1.845
12.3 * 0.4 = 4.92 / 2 = 2.46
6+1.845 = 7.845
6+2.46 = 8.46

7.85 - 8.5% effective buff in single-target. This is fairly consistent with my 8-9% claim, albeit the top-end was a tad high.

If you want to figure it out for AOE, then it's someone else's turn to step up.

[beaver1024]

6% to Nature. 6% to Arcane. 12.3% to Astral damage (this is confirmed).

Interesting, your assumption about how astral damage works with buffs to two schools seems to contradict all other sources at the moment. Do you have a link to a blue post about this?

A simple check of the tooltip for Starsurge in caster form vs moonkin form suggests that astral damage only benefits from the highest boost from a multi-school. Moonkin form provides +10% damage to both nature and arcane. I should see a 20% increase in damage to Starsurge when I change forms but I do not.

Is this change for astral damage a coming change that you have advance knowledge about in a future patch? Or is this April fools? If so it's a good one .

[Cyous]

Interesting, your assumption about how astral damage works with buffs to two schools seems to contradict all other sources at the moment. Do you have a link to a blue post about this?

A simple check of the tooltip for Starsurge in caster form vs moonkin form suggests that astral damage only benefits from the highest boost from a multi-school. Moonkin form provides +10% damage to both nature and arcane.

I straight-up asked Blizzard testers/QA. It's in DMs/Discord. Astral damage gains both bonuses.

Moonkin Form is 1 aura.

CI has 2 auras. THese auras don't share the same spell id.

[huth]

I straight-up asked Blizzard testers/QA. It's in DMs/Discord. Astral damage gains both bonuses.

Moonkin Form is 1 aura.

CI has 2 auras. THese auras don't share the same spell id.

They still shouldn't stack going by normal multischool rules, which is "highest bonus wins".

[Cyous]

They still shouldn't stack going by normal multischool rules, which is "highest bonus wins".

Moonkin Form is multi-school.
CI is not.

[beaver1024]

I straight-up asked Blizzard testers/QA. It's in DMs/Discord. Astral damage gains both bonuses.

Moonkin Form is 1 aura.

CI has 2 auras. THese auras don't share the same spell id.

Ok thanks for this information. I did not know this. All the sources of information about this artifact trait indicates that it only applies one aura. I'm pretty sure this is not widely known information.

[Tyze]

Okey so im not a numbers guy, I see many numbers and I dont follow.

Are we looking good or not?

[Bastecannon]

Okey so im not a numbers guy, I see many numbers and I dont follow.

Are we looking good or not?

Only if you use Moonkin form, not the abhorrent Astral glyph.

[coblade14]

They still shouldn't stack going by normal multischool rules, which is "highest bonus wins".

He is saying you get 2 buffs with different ID and effect, so they stack. If your "highest bonus wins" is true, then non of these should effect astral damage at all since moonkin form is 10%, higher than both of these.